19th c. Tibetan Buddhist Q's

lonestarlibrarian · Mar 15, 2017

The WIP is set in Victorian times, so all this is being filtered through a Victorian British gentleman's perspective as he tells the tale back in London. He had been one of the rare few allowed into Tibet in a time when it was very strictly off-limits...

X is a Tibetan lama whose status is as the reincarnation of Y, and is the nth in that mental continuum. His direct predecessor, the n-1 reincarnation of Y, had his life cut short (still trying to figure out how much history X knows), and the same villains are looking to repeat events. So his life is in danger, and X feels like he is being supernaturally warned. If he was a Western ecclesiastic in such a situation, it would be perfectly ordinary to make reference to, "I'm being warned from Beyond", or "My Guardian Angel", or something along those lines.

How would a Tibetan Buddhist perceive such an event? Would he say that he's getting a warning from Y, or from n-1, or from some sort of protective entities in a particular realm/world/etc? It's my understanding that Y =/= n-1 =/= X, but they all share a mental continuum. But I'm not quite so solid on how the three entities would relate to each other, and how to accurately phrase the situation from the character's viewpoint.

Piggybacking on that question, I know that sometimes the Tibetans of the period would fit foreign characters into their worldview by relating them to entities they knew about. Like, for example, equating Queen Victoria with Palden-lhamo, and the Czar of Russia was Tsang-kapa, and the Chinese Emperor was Jampa-lang, as well as humbler people being the reincarnations of other entities. Who might they equate with someone with a keen eye and the ability to discern a liar?

Thank you!

Snitchcat · Apr 1, 2017

I'm assuming you've found all the links that would be expected?

Just wondering if you've been through this site? It's FAQs might contain a starting point from which to find your answer: http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/index.php/Buddhism_101_–_Questions_and_Answers

This link might point you in the right direction: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Pure_vision The first sentence may be of particular use.

As far as a comparison for keen eye/truth-seer goes, I had no luck finding anything there, except this glossary may provide some clues? http://dharmakaya.org/resources/buddhist-glossary/

King Neptune · Apr 1, 2017

lonestarlibrarian said:
The WIP is set in Victorian times, so all this is being filtered through a Victorian British gentleman's perspective as he tells the tale back in London. He had been one of the rare few allowed into Tibet in a time when it was very strictly off-limits...

I missed this one when you asked it, but the questions are interesting, and the answers are better.

X is a Tibetan lama whose status is as the reincarnation of Y, and is the nth in that mental continuum. His direct predecessor, the n-1 reincarnation of Y, had his life cut short (still trying to figure out how much history X knows), and the same villains are looking to repeat events. So his life is in danger, and X feels like he is being supernaturally warned. If he was a Western ecclesiastic in such a situation, it would be perfectly ordinary to make reference to, "I'm being warned from Beyond", or "My Guardian Angel", or something along those lines.

Such a feeling of danger might be expressed any of several ways, depending on the individual and what he thought.

How would a Tibetan Buddhist perceive such an event? Would he say that he's getting a warning from Y, or from n-1, or from some sort of protective entities in a particular realm/world/etc? It's my understanding that Y =/= n-1 =/= X, but they all share a mental continuum. But I'm not quite so solid on how the three entities would relate to each other, and how to accurately phrase the situation from the character's viewpoint.

You seem to think that on some level the spirits or souls of the different incarnations are different. They aren't there is a single person who, like everyone, exists simultaneously on several levels. The bodies of the different levels are parts of the whole. Additional incarnations give to a person additional experience and education on all levels. One thing that might change would be how the various levels associate with each other. As a general matter, the physical body is unaware of the spirit or soul, but as one further develops one becomes aware of the higher levels within oneself and can borrow information from them.

Piggybacking on that question, I know that sometimes the Tibetans of the period would fit foreign characters into their worldview by relating them to entities they knew about. Like, for example, equating Queen Victoria with Palden-lhamo, and the Czar of Russia was Tsang-kapa, and the Chinese Emperor was Jampa-lang, as well as humbler people being the reincarnations of other entities. Who might they equate with someone with a keen eye and the ability to discern a liar?

Such things are like saying that Trump is much like Hitler.

lonestarlibrarian · Apr 2, 2017

Thanks. I was able to get everything subbed by my deadline. I was getting most of my information from first-decade-of-the-20th-century sources and earlier, to keep the period flavor accurate, but I know a lot of observers don't always interpret things correctly. (I had a Hindu Indian roommate while I was cataloguing some ethnographic pieces a Baptist missionary had brought back from 1920's India to our museum. It was interesting talking to her and comparing her interpretation of x or y against the missionary's interpretation of x and y.) I looked for as much information online as I could, but I'm not familiar enough with either Buddhism or New Age-ism to know what I was looking at regarding some details, since a lot of literature got jumbled up together mid-century, and I wasn't sure about the purity of my information, as to whether or not a late-19th-century Tibetan Buddhist would share those same views. So I ended up restructuring a few scenes to avoid addressing the issues as much as possible. It meant I couldn't work in some color I would have liked-- I really would liked to have discovered a deity-parallel-- but there's always the next one.

Thanks for the third paragraph, King Neptune; that's a lot to chew on. I look forward to thinking it through.

re: the Trump = Hitler thing, the Czar of Russia = Tsang-Kapa thing was a quote from the 13th Dalai Lama, and that the Chinese Emperor = Jampa-lang was the response from the Tsong-du, the former National Assembly of Tibet. I wasn't about to second-guess them.

Thanks!

King Neptune · Apr 2, 2017

lonestarlibrarian said:
Thanks for the third paragraph, King Neptune; that's a lot to chew on. I look forward to thinking it through. re: the Trump = Hitler thing, the Czar of Russia = Tsang-Kapa thing was a quote from the 13th Dalai Lama, and that the Chinese Emperor = Jampa-lang was the response from the Tsong-du, the former National Assembly of Tibet. I wasn't about to second-guess them.

Thanks!

Those should be regarded as comparisons, rather than statements of whom someone was in a prior incarnation.

lonestarlibrarian · Apr 2, 2017

Ah! Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Thanks.

lonestarlibrarian · Apr 5, 2017

Dorky question, but while we're on the subject...

So, if the ones we were discussing earlier upthread are supposed to be comparisons, rather than to be taken literally, would it also be a misunderstanding to think that the Dalai Lama is supposed to be the literal reincarnation of his predecessors, who were supposed to be the literal reincarnation of the bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara? And the Palden Lama is just someone who is to be compared to his predecessors, rather than having a deeper connection to the previous officeholders and the buddha Amitabha? And the other tulku/reincarnate lamas as well?

King Neptune · Apr 5, 2017

lonestarlibrarian said:
Dorky question, but while we're on the subject...

So, if the ones we were discussing earlier upthread are supposed to be comparisons, rather than to be taken literally, would it also be a misunderstanding to think that the Dalai Lama is supposed to be the literal reincarnation of his predecessors, who were supposed to be the literal reincarnation of the bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara? And the Palden Lama is just someone who is to be compared to his predecessors, rather than having a deeper connection to the previous officeholders and the buddha Amitabha? And the other tulku/reincarnate lamas as well?

I won't defend either side of that, but I would suggest that you study how the present Dalai Lama was found to be a reincarnation, and also look into how the Chinese government has trained children they chose to be designated as the present incarnation of various Lamas. There is a political element involved in addition to the religious and spiritual. If one is a believer in Tibetan Buddhism, then there is one set of answers. If one favors the Chinese government, then there is another set of answers. If one's opinions fall elsewhere, then there are even more answers.

Since no one has ever proven that reincarnation occurs, it is logical to say that one is uncertain. The testimony regarding reincarnation predate written language, and it appears that the seven week model of time between incarnations probably goes back many thousand s of years, but we don't have direct evidence. A seven week (49 day) time in Hades was mentioned by the Ancient Greeks and Romans, and it agrees with some present day Buddhist opinion (or so I am told).

19th c. Tibetan Buddhist Q's

lonestarlibrarian

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Snitchcat

Dragon-kitty.

King Neptune

lonestarlibrarian

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King Neptune

lonestarlibrarian

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lonestarlibrarian

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King Neptune