Jewish Kid & Punk Rock, 1979-1987

MurderOfCrows

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Roderick Ritter is a Queer Jewish Kid. Family left Europe in 1930s; Father was in his teens, is 10+ years older than his mother, who got out post-war and spent time in camp. They had a wealthy patron who he gains weather from. Roderick remembers, faintly, being poor in his very early youth but success was quickly dragging them out of it.


He is sent to a boarding school, to live with his uncle and get a proper education. By day, broading school. By night, sneaking out to rebel. He is waist deep in the punk scene in his teens, getting shitfaced and rocking out, and when the Skinhead movement really started to get traction in the 80s, starting a lot of fights.


What did he listen to? What concerts might he have snuck out to? What bands were on the table, and what bands (usually racist/antisemitic) are completely off the table for someone who is proud of his Jewish heritage? Where did he and his outcast boarding school weirdo buddies start a fight with a pack of skinheads?


Inquiring minds want to know.
 
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MurderOfCrows

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Father was 14 in 1939. Mother was 5 in 1939.




Roderick was born in 1968 or so. Father was in his forties, this was his second marriage. First wife died young, and he was alone for some time before remarrying. Mother was in her 30s and had multiple health issues, also marrying late because she suffered extreme PTSD and had a trouble connecting with anyone.


They had several miscarriages before Rod, and then managed to have 2 more births after, though the final (twins) nearly killed her and left mom in terrible health.
 

Marlys

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Roderick Ritter is a Queer Jewish Kid. Family left Europe in 1930s; Father was in his teens, is 10+ years older than his mother, who got out post-war and spent time in camp. They had a wealthy patron who he gains weather What?from. Roderick remembers, faintly, being poor in his very early youth but success was quickly dragging them out of it.


He is sent to a boarding school, to live with his uncle Uncle lives at the boarding school, too? Teacher? Headmaster? Where? and get a proper education. By day, broading school. By night, sneaking out to rebel. He is waist deep in the punk scene in his teens, getting shitfaced and rocking out, and when the Skinhead movement really started to get traction in the 80s, starting a lot of fights. Born in '68 makes him a tad late for true punk, but location matters.


What did he listen to? What concerts might he have snuck out to? Again, where? One possibility: go to your library and dig up newspapers to see what actually played near his location at the time. Rolling Stone had national concert listings, but depending on where he is, the local scene might be better to dig into. If this is US, that is. If UK, try Melody Maker and/or NME. What bands were on the table, and what bands (usually racist/antisemitic) are completely off the table for someone who is proud of his Jewish heritage? Where did he and his outcast boarding school weirdo buddies start a fight with a pack of skinheads? This is where a local newspaper will shine. If you can find news items about skinheads getting into fights at particular bars, or violence at concerts, it would be awesome to work in the actual locations and events into your story.


Inquiring minds want to know.

Need location, and to firm up time. You might want to have him born a few years earlier.
 

ap123

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They'd find/fight with kids from town. For the punk scene, you'd want him headed to NY and the East Village there, or LA. Many boarding schools are pretty remote, there's no nightlife scene to sneak off to. Could happen, but not likely on a very regular basis You could model it on the Peddie School, which is in NJ and walking distance to a train station to NYC, but then be less likely to find skinheads in the town to fight with ;)

Have you read City on Fire, by Garth Risk Hallberg? Similar premise but spanning a much longer timeline, came out about a year ago (maybe two), and well done.
 

MurderOfCrows

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Apparently my edit about weather being wealth was eaten.

Anyway!

I really would prefer him in school in London/UK. His family lives in New York, so I want to put some significant distance between them, so he eventually feels safe fooling around with one of his classmates eventually.

I'll definitely see what I can find out about getting access to older stuff in print, though. Not sure how available that will be.

Can also definitely move Rod's age up and some so that's not an issue. Just not too much.
 

Marlys

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ProQuest has a digital entertainment archive that includes NME and Melody Maker, but is a pay service used by libraries. I don't think it's available to individuals, but if you look around, you may be able to find a library near you that has it.

You can get individual access to The Times of London, including an archive that goes back 200 years or so. Check first to see if you can access it via a local library, but if not it's relatively cheap (currently an 8-week trial runs 8 pounds, or about 10 bucks). The Times will also cover the music scene (although probably not the absolute hoot Melody Maker was in the '80s), and should have articles on fights involving skinheads.

The more you can learn about the music scene at the time, the better you'll be able to pinpoint an exact location and age for your MC. I lived in the UK in 1985-6, and do rather feel most of the punk and skinhead stuff was earlier. Late '70s-very early '80s.
 
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MurderOfCrows

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I might be able to access that through my alma mater's library - they give access to alumni in perpetuity. A thing to investigate to see what I can find!
 

neandermagnon

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If you're going to set it in London and your MC's at boarding school, there's a whole load of social class related issues you'll have to navigate around. Almost all boarding schools are private (and very expensive), and therefore the kids in them are middle-middle class and upwards. The whole punk rock and skinheads thing is very working class. The two really don't go together. Bear in mind that different social classes in the UK are like different cultures. It's far more than just what your job is and how much money you have.

While there are middle-middle and upper-middle class kids who try to pass as working class (which is a whole other kettle of fish*) I just can't see boarding school kids being punks, skinheads etc, even if they're on a teenage rebellion thing. Maybe they'd wear the fashions and listen to the music, but I can't see that they'd be easily accepted into the actual subculture, as in hanging around with punks, skinheads, etc in pubs, clubs, whatever. IMO his social class will single him out way more than being Jewish would. (I'm a working class Londoner, in fact with vaguely Jewish roots - my dad's mum was from a Jewish family, albeit not practicing. An upper-middle class person who actually went to a posh boarding school in this era may have a different view on the matter. But inverted snobbery (i.e. working class people not liking people from higher social classes) definitely exists.)

ETA: bear in mind that my perspective is entirely as a working class person. I don't really know much about the real lives of private school educated people. If someone who went to a posh boarding school in this era says yep, lots of people were punks/skinheads/etc, they did all these things, then go with what they say and ignore me.

*to understand how this is viewed by working class people, here's a song about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcBH4C5RtR8 (it's from the 90s so after your character's time, but the sentiment behind it would've existed in the 80s and earlier) and while inverted snobbery is wrong (no argument from me there), rich people trying to be working class because they think it's cool are at best very annoying.

Boarding schools (and all private schools for that matter) are very strict. If he's regularly going out and getting pissed and getting into fights and stuff and the school's attempts to stop him doing that fail, he's going to get expelled pretty quickly. The hairstyle alone might get him kicked out if he's point blank refusing to adhere to the school uniform requirements. Even state schools don't allow extreme hairstyles. Nearly all UK schools, state or private, have a school uniform which includes restrictions on hairstyles. Skinhead haircuts are greatly frowned upon due to their association with the National Front (neo-nazis) and therefore considered an extreme hairstyle and not allowed. This is more reason why the whole thing of being at boarding school and a punk rocker getting drunk and getting into fights during the night just does not seem plausible.

I also agree with the comment upthread that punk is more late 1970s and very very early 80s.
 
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MurderOfCrows

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He wouldn't be adopting anything Skinhead, as he's Jewish and proud of his heritage, so opting for anything too wild in haircut or personality. For him it's a bit of side rebellion (his partner in crime is far more likely to be expelled than he is.) As for the wealth, the family has it, though they didn't have it when he was very, very young. (They're basically taking over the equivalent of Wayne Enterprises later down the road - they got the cash for a good school.) I'm aware of the issues with the Jewishness + the school/class issues, as well.

In all likelihood it looks like a move back to New York will be ideal for my needs; it means he can go to a prep academy without boarding, be dodging his parents, and getting really wound up about the whole queer thing until his father eventually finds out and puts his foot down and really gives him some more severe issues about being in the closet and hating himself.

So: dial him back a few years, move to New York, prep vs boarding. I think we've got that much settled as good changes... and that means music will be easier to research on this side of the proverbial pond.
 

neandermagnon

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If you're more familiar with New York, then IMO it's usually better in this case to go for the whole "write what you know" thing. For the same reasons, I'd really struggle to write any story set in New York. That's not to say it can't be done through research, but why do that when you already have a wealth of knowledge from your own area and other places where you know the culture, people and geography really well? My current WIP is set in London for this very reason. I know London and I know British culture.
 

MurderOfCrows

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I have been to New York exactly once in my life. I do have friends who lived/do live there now, though, and they could be a resource. (Though none of them lived through that time period that I'm researching.)
 

Alessandra Kelley

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I have been to New York exactly once in my life. I do have friends who lived/do live there now, though, and they could be a resource. (Though none of them lived through that time period that I'm researching.)

That was still pretty solidly in the infamous "Ford to City: Drop Dead" years. NYC was, at the time, relatively run down and gungy and feeling a little left behind.
 

Layla Nahar

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He'd probably listen to Crass - late 70s punk and people were still listening to them in the 80s. The Exploited. Er - Corrosion of Conformity is a name that springs to mind. I think they were American. The other two were English, but listened to among The Punks in the US. Anyway, those names are a place to start. I can't dredge any other names up from my memory - but if you get some names I could tell you - yeah, I remember that one...
 

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I was an adolescent during this period, one of three punks at the grammar school; a difficult time for me. We 'missed the boat,' yes, but I see how 'punk' would appeal to boarding school renegades [in the dorm], 'Borstal Breakout' springs to mind.

I read 'Sounds’ magazine mainly, not till hair grew shaggy, years later, did I graduate to The Melody Maker/to proper Genesis type of music. Round about '84 there was a scene - 'bad' skinheads of the right v 'good' skinheads of the left. 'Screwdriver' were one famous band of skinheads, nazi skinheads, nobody even listened to their music they were so frightening, and deemed 'racialist,' as people used to say. To hear it, you had to buy it, so…I didn’t buy it.

Whereas 'The Redskins' were good skinheads, popular on the Indy scene and played by John Peel [radio]. But, I didn’t buy their stuff either.

Definitely - clunky storylines of the era dealt with this clash of the sects.

Skinheads were around our towns up untll ’86, frightening if a skinhead came the other way down a street, or an alley. They might thump you, and they sniffed glue. One giant skinhead used to dance alone on the dancefloor. Nobody dared approach the dancefloor with him on it, those were terrible evenings. And punks were still on the King’s Road till about the same time, though mainly professional punks. They turned fringe and curious at this point, your best bet for villains would be ‘casuals’ or ‘dressers’ with the wedge haircuts, tassel shoes, Farah trousers, those bastards, before Morrissey protected softies.

The ‘Jewish identity’ seems perhaps earnest, contrived certainly as a vehicle, the posh boys with punk lps v working class skinheads, ripe for parody:

'Grandfather fought at Cable Street,' his fruity vowels spilled from the tongue, as a fist blah blah - might be effective - or my loyalties as a reader might be disturbed. There's something right about skinheads beating public schoolboys. Otherwise, imagine the depths of our ignorance, nobody knew what women looked like, and we mainly guessed, same with ‘class’ also. I didn’t recognise class till much later, aged nineteen. So, preserve naiveté for your project.
 

Layla Nahar

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I remember that whole early skinhead thing... I didn't actually know any of the 'bad' skinheads, but I remember that once skinhead came into the whole thing, it wasn't as much fun to go to shows anymore...

(I also knew a couple of Jewish skinheads so go figure that...)
 

MurderOfCrows

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The idea of good Skinheads vs Bad Skinheads has literally never crossed my mind. They're most often connected with the Neo-Nazi movement over here and thus are pretty blanket bad, even if they're not out actively hurting people. They're still connected with really terrible things. (Sure, they've evolved into undercut wearing alt-right over here, but... you know, times change.)

Jewish identity is integral to the character, and I've actually got some Jewish readers on board to keep it in line w/ experiences. He's a double 'other', and it puts him at real odds with trying to satisfy his father's notions of who he should be, and his own notions of who he should be. The conflict leaves him rife with bitterness, leads to the eventual crash-burn of his marriage, and puts him at odds with his son whom he tries to steer as his father steered him, and it blows up in his face.
 

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I was waffling on the other day, eh...

What I meant was - whilst it feels right - his Jewish identity as a vehicle - when you are actually fourteen years old religion is a sideshow..[?] I think the idea is too complicated.

'Skinhead' emerged in c68 - the working class rejection of all things hippy. Originally, clothes aside - it centred on ska, Jamaican music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7xLUXHNw8g

That's why it's curious with the race business, and people write dissertations about it. Later skinhead morphed toward Oi!/thrashy guitars during the '78 revival.

The whole story has been done to death - this side of the water, so a mind turns to subverting truths rather than regurgitating the parable, heh.

Still, old people enjoy a slice of '78 from time to time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6utdlMvuD74
 
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I_love_coffee

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The Ramones-
70's-80's punk

and Joey Ramone is jewish- perhaps your main character identifies with him?
 

Shakesbear

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'Jewish' means different things to different people. If he is sent to a boarding school would it be one that kept kosher? That is had kosher food? Would it matter to his family? If he is proud of his heritage then keeping kosher would be of importance to him. Saying he coould be a vegetarian is a no go - if the school kitchens prepared meat that was not kosher then the rest of the food would not be deemed kosher. At least by orthodox Jews. Which is a new kettle of fish (with scales and fins) - which demonination of Judiasm does the family belong to? First - Sephardi or Ashkenazi? Reform, Liberal or Orthodox? They are the main division in the UK - not sure about the US.
 
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lianna williamson

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If he is proud of his heritage then keeping kosher would be of importance to him.

This has not been my experience. I have known many, many Jews who are proud of their heritage and do not keep kosher, observe shabbat, etc. Judaism is a cultural affiliation as well as a religion, and you can absolutely have the former without adhering to the latter. The fact his parents are Holocaust survivors does not mean the family is automatically observant.

That said, I think that in order to figure out what the clash between punk and Jewish is for him, you need to decide how he was raised. How observant were they? Does he feel a pang about going to a club on a Friday night, or does that not even occur to him? Does he want a tattoo but secretly fear not being able to buried in a Jewish cemetery?

I grew up in Boston and was part of the punk scene from 1983-87. In the Boston scene at least, skinhead did not automatically equal neo-nazi. I knew a number of punk boys who had shaved heads and combat boots who were resolutely anti-NaziPunk.
 

Shakesbear

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Lianna, I agree with most of what you say. In my experience being proud of your heritage meant helping to preserve it by observing it. It is up to individuals and all we can do is put our opinions. It is good to have more than one in a thread like this.:) I do not think mine is right or wrong, just mine.