Sikhs: I need you.

MurderOfCrows

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I'm looking for a Sikh to ask some questions about ... well, a lot of things. I've hit a point in my work where accuracy and sensitivity are going to be needed, and I really don't want to screw this up. More and more my research turns up that the premise of the Sikh character I am using may not even be feasible, so...

Hit me up. You may prefer PM to open thread since this is also going to cover questions of sexuality and gender identity, and probably some politics from the 1880's.
 

MurderOfCrows

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This is for a Victorian Adventure-Horror with elements of crime noir tossed in for good measure. It is in a fantastical version of the 1880s.



It is 1889, the year of the Seybert Report destroying a lot of Spiritualist credibility in America, and bleeding into England.

I have two lead characters: Corbin Blackwell, a con-man and not-entirely-recently-dead man, who now shares his body with a passenger spirit who gives him some neat powers. His companion in crime, who looking to bring her sister's killer to justice and free her soul from his bondage is Jyoti Kaur, a Sikh woman. However, it's 1889 in England. She's already hampered by race, and then again by sex.

So she's taken on the role of a man to work through English society so she can defeat evil. She is still devout Sikh (baptized vs nonbaptized) and a warrior for righteousness. Corbin's more reluctant to be helpful, but Jyoti sees compassion as a basic duty to humanity. She keeps with the five Ks, but...

Would she be able to have Sikh allies in England? Would they be upset because of her masquerade, especially since she would have to wear a false beard? Or would they see this as the potential costs of having to navigate racist, sexist, Imperialist England during a time so she can wage war on an evil force?

Jyoti is also ace/asexual (this does not relate to her mission, it's simply a factor of who she is) and part of her is very comfortable as a man - she enjoys the freedom it grants her, even if her race is still a hindrance in England and beyond. She still identifies as a woman, though, and though she's asexual she's not aromantic. She simply just has no sexual attraction to others. But she wants to have a family and settle someday, once her sister is avenged. She explicitly does not want to remain Corbin's warrior-companion or gain his type of immortality (she is not undead!okay) She wants to live, die and attain her oneness with the divine, which she believes Corbin is cut off from (not of his own fault, but at the same time: still not undead!okay.)

Correlating all this with her Sikhism without making a mangle of it is important. History is important. I know she would have no love for England or the English, and that she'd be a second class citizen at this time, something that would rankle her to no end. But I'm really tired of Victorian era fiction erasing everyone who isn't European and I like what I've built with her... but I want to make her respectful and as accurate as possible.
 

Siri Kirpal

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This is for a Victorian Adventure-Horror with elements of crime noir tossed in for good measure. It is in a fantastical version of the 1880s.



It is 1889, the year of the Seybert Report destroying a lot of Spiritualist credibility in America, and bleeding into England.

I have two lead characters: Corbin Blackwell, a con-man and not-entirely-recently-dead man, who now shares his body with a passenger spirit who gives him some neat powers. His companion in crime, who looking to bring her sister's killer to justice and free her soul from his bondage is Jyoti Kaur, a Sikh woman. However, it's 1889 in England. She's already hampered by race, and then again by sex.

So she's taken on the role of a man to work through English society so she can defeat evil. She is still devout Sikh (baptized vs nonbaptized) and a warrior for righteousness. Corbin's more reluctant to be helpful, but Jyoti sees compassion as a basic duty to humanity. She keeps with the five Ks, but...

Would she be able to have Sikh allies in England? Would they be upset because of her masquerade, especially since she would have to wear a false beard? Or would they see this as the potential costs of having to navigate racist, sexist, Imperialist England during a time so she can wage war on an evil force?

Jyoti is also ace/asexual (this does not relate to her mission, it's simply a factor of who she is) and part of her is very comfortable as a man - she enjoys the freedom it grants her, even if her race is still a hindrance in England and beyond. She still identifies as a woman, though, and though she's asexual she's not aromantic. She simply just has no sexual attraction to others. But she wants to have a family and settle someday, once her sister is avenged. She explicitly does not want to remain Corbin's warrior-companion or gain his type of immortality (she is not undead!okay) She wants to live, die and attain her oneness with the divine, which she believes Corbin is cut off from (not of his own fault, but at the same time: still not undead!okay.)

Correlating all this with her Sikhism without making a mangle of it is important. History is important. I know she would have no love for England or the English, and that she'd be a second class citizen at this time, something that would rankle her to no end. But I'm really tired of Victorian era fiction erasing everyone who isn't European and I like what I've built with her... but I want to make her respectful and as accurate as possible.

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Okay, I've bolded the section that has your main problem. No Sikh believes that killing is the way to free a soul from bondage. Can't be done. We chant for our dead to do that. That's the job of Waheguru, not us. We're warriors, yes, but we kill for defense only, not revenge.

Next problem, in Indian families/culture, not just Sikh ones, unmarried women don't go running around unescorted with men, even undead ones. Her family--and remember that Indian families are extended, not just nuclear--wouldn't buy.

Nor, at that point in time, would she be the one to determine when she marries. Although the better quality parents might give her some choice in the matter, they would have more say than she would.

However, you might be able to get around all this.

First problem, if she's doing it, not for revenge, but to protect others, other Sikhs will buy it. So will she.

Second problem, if your undead guy has lost male gender in his becoming undead, then her family might okay it. You could make this a complication if you like.

Final problem, just give her family that's willing to give her time.

Hope that helps. Feel free to ask more questions. You may also PM me when you need a beta.

Best of luck!

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

MurderOfCrows

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Thank you!

To the first point: She's basically Batman. Justice, not vengeance. She's lost her family and it agonizes her, but she wants to free her sister from who has her soul literally captured and to make sure that no one ever has to endure the horrors they've endured. She's not vengeful, I want her to be true to the Sikh values and let her be righteous in what she does - not striking first, extending a hand in compassion before shes raises a fist. She is quick to defend but if there's a peaceful resolution she'll assess and accept.

Second & Possibly Third? Immediate family is dead, but extended would be a problem. Is it possible that they believe her dead and lost? She is 'found' by Corbin at a fairly young age since he's investigating his own origin, shortly after her sister's spiritual imprisonment, and her parents were murdered but not spiritually pressganged (our undead pressganger is misogynist, but as Jyoti was a child at the time and he's not a pedophile, he had little interest in her, or in her mother as 'sullied' by the use of another man.) Fires destroy a lot of things, maybe they simply believe her ash? Instead, she was taken by an undead con man who thought he was doing her a favor. His own undead mentor is female, and so she would have a safe woman to grow up with, until she was of age to accompany Corbin of her own volition and choice.

Does that help the set up at all?
 

leifwright

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I will tell you this: When I visited India, my experience as a white American was universal: Whenever I walked in a place with huge crowds of people, it was like Moses parting the Red Sea: a huge line of people would part on either side so I and my party could walk through.

Except for Sikhs.

Sikhs did not care at all who I was or who my party was. I was to step aside for them, not the other way around. That made me respect them and their culture more than anything else I could have read about them.

Remember that, at least in the crossing of cultures in your story: Sikhs are not inferior to ANYONE. Sikhs do not accept that there is any monopoly on truth, any group that deserves to be elevated above others.
 

MurderOfCrows

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I would never, ever want to have Jyoti be inferior. She is an co-protagonist and has her own story to tell within this world. I want her to be amazing, not "oh yeah that token character."
 

Siri Kirpal

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Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

leifwright: YEP.

MOC: Our first problem goes deeper than you may understand. Sikhs don't believe a soul can be caught or pressganged by hostile forces. It can get lost, but it can't get stolen. Reason is that it's always a unit microcosm of Waheguru. So, it's not just that she wouldn't do revenge, it's that the set up isn't possible from a Sikh perspective. I'd have to see how you're doing this to see if it would work.

Second problem seems solved, especially since we cremate our dead. So, yeah, extended family would believe her dead.

That makes it impossible to capture the soul, btw, so to capture the sister, the one way I can think of would be to make her buried.

One minor point: I've never heard of any Sikh, male or female, named Jyoti. It would be Jot (Light) or Joti (Flame).

You were interested in knowing about how Sikhs view cross-dressing. It's really not an issue, because Punjabi dress is similar for men and women: long tunic over leggings/pants. Men usually wear a cummerbund. Women rarely do. At that date, few if any women wore turbans, so she'd need a mentor for turban tying.

One minor point for the long run, in case you need this info: If she wants to marry and have children, having spent periods of time alone with a male (even undead) is going to lower her value in the marriage market. (That business of sullying you mentioned appertains.) However, if her valor were known and understood, some brave men might be interested.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

MurderOfCrows

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Joti will be a fine enough shift, thank you for the correction!

The set up is this:

This villain is a Skinhorse. Skinhorses are undead, though they're not vampires or ghouls. They return from the dead with a 'rider' of sorts, a partner-spirit who keeps them from death but also imbues odd or strange powers. They need living companions not to drain blood or eat souls of, but to simply counter the death energy/entropy that they generate over time from being connected to the afterlife/death so long.

Our villain specifically binds spirits of women in servitude and they manifest only as serving limbs for him because he thinks so little of them. If a woman defies him or proves otherwise unsubmissive -- well, she's likely to be killed so he can harvest her for his collection of 'wives', making her a part of his collection. Joti's sister was not interested in his advances, and so he was ready to burn everything to the ground to have her and make her understand what he saw as she 'place' and add him to her collection. Joti survives, is found by Corbin, passed on to a friend, who then helps her manage her grief and rage, and go forward from there. Eventually, as Corbin comes and goes, she asks him to help her find justice for her family and prevent that thing from creating further evil, and off they go.

(Corbin is a Skinhorse as well, Joti is very much not. Corbin's got a much different power-set for this particular horror-adventure.)


When cross-dressing in England she'll be wearing the clothing of the time, but she will definitely need a mentor in turban tying. (I've seen there are a variety of styles, is there anything that would be of interest to her?)


Though on the gender: Maybe a character point that she has ritualistically surrenders her womanness; releasing her to work as she must to bring justice to the world, but as a sacrifice, the things she wants in the future must be forsworn? A lot of cultures have a sort of surrendering-of-sex for sonless families, where the oldest daughter takes on both the rites and responsibility of men (but are expected to act as men, but remain celibate in some cases), but I've never heard of this in Indian culture.
 

Siri Kirpal

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Sat Nam! (Literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

:) I made that pun myself when I walked into my first Kundalini Yoga class, not knowing my teacher was a closet (AKA unturbaned) Sikh.

Sikhs definitely do NOT have a surrendering of femaleness to provide a male heir. We're definitely a Thy-Will-Be-Done...But-Keep-Your-Powder-Dry type group. Remember, we don't mess with our bodies except for medical necessity.

There are turban tying videos on www.sikhnet.com. I'd suggest taking a look.

Remember she'll have to hide menstruation and her breasts.

One worry to look into: The British may have had laws against cross-dressing at that time. If so, she'll need to be extra cautious.

I think your scenario might work. (I would love for it to work...even though Sikhism is rather resistant to horror, since that genre is based on Abrahamic and earlier concepts of demons.) Do keep in mind that for Sikhs no soul can be damaged because, whether it knows it or not, it's always part of God/Waheguru/the Infinite. You will find loads of Sikh scripture/poetry referring to the Name of God (as in my greeting). Most of us know that that means that the Truth of the Soul's Identity is Oneness with the Divine.

Oh, since she's an Amritdhari (baptized) Sikh, she will be reading (out loud) her banis (certain prescribed poems read each day by devout Sikhs). She'll do all of them each day if at all possible, but Jaap Sahib and Bayntee Choupai (these spellings aren't absolute, you'll find others) will be ones she'll partial too as these are the ones with the strongest warrior-saint energy.

I hope those last bits were helpful rather than confusing.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

I hope those last bits weren't too confusing.
 

MurderOfCrows

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Right, I figured there wasn't a way to do a 'gender/sex is a thing that is transformable' ideal. I have taken account the necessities of ladyhood, being one myself. She's going to have to have allies who are in the know and people who can supply her with what she needs.

Funnily, the cross-dressing is the least of the issues; her partner's bisexual and she's just 'oh god could you just stop' a lot of the time, as he's quite flirty with p much everyone who isn't her, which is how she likes it. So they manage the queer end of town and are very aware of the laws and dangers. Thankfully, Corbin can't be barred by any doors and he can spring Joti at any time he needs pretty much, but they prefer to stay out of the eyes of the law.

I would love for it to work, as it is. The story is adventure horror, so it's a little bit Crimson Peak, a lump of Penny Dreadful, and a side order of Indiana Jones occurring fifty years sooner. But I'm really tired of serious genre period fiction be mostly focused on the English, and the whole idea that there is nobody in these books but English people. They had all sorts of people about! They had jobs and shops and sometimes lived in miserable ghettos, but they existed.

I want Joti to exist, and be a sort of look at what she has to maneuver to reach success and defeat evil. I want her to have her faith tested but come out on top. And when all is said and done, decide if she wants to go home to do what she always planned to as a little girl, or if she's decided she's going to pursue a life dedicated to others.

I hope that makes sense.
 

frimble3

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Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)
You were interested in knowing about how Sikhs view cross-dressing. It's really not an issue, because Punjabi dress is similar for men and women: long tunic over leggings/pants. Men usually wear a cummerbund. Women rarely do. At that date, few if any women wore turbans, so she'd need a mentor for turban tying.
I imagine to the average bobby-in-the-street, fine details would be lost among a general sense of 'those people all dress the same'. If she's got a beard, pants, and a turban, 'she' must be a man. And by the 1880's the Sikhs already had a well-known military reputation, thanks to the British Army in India. Depending on the policeman, he might be reluctant to question a man's manliness so far as to demand a body search. As to the fake beard, easily explained: "A man must have a beard to be a man. I am young, my beard is wispy, I wear this to cover my shame." I'll bet this would sound plausible, especially to a young policeman.


One minor point for the long run, in case you need this info: If she wants to marry and have children, having spent periods of time alone with a male (even undead) is going to lower her value in the marriage market. (That business of sullying you mentioned appertains.) However, if her valor were known and understood, some brave men might be interested.
That would be nice, for her to meet a Sikh man who appreciates her strength and bravery and not just her pretty eyes. Not that romance is necessary - it would seem rather rushed at the end of an action story. But, as you say, in the long run.
 

MurderOfCrows

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I imagine to the average bobby-in-the-street, fine details would be lost among a general sense of 'those people all dress the same'. If she's got a beard, pants, and a turban, 'she' must be a man. And by the 1880's the Sikhs already had a well-known military reputation, thanks to the British Army in India. Depending on the policeman, he might be reluctant to question a man's manliness so far as to demand a body search. As to the fake beard, easily explained: "A man must have a beard to be a man. I am young, my beard is wispy, I wear this to cover my shame." I'll bet this would sound plausible, especially to a young policeman.



That would be nice, for her to meet a Sikh man who appreciates her strength and bravery and not just her pretty eyes. Not that romance is necessary - it would seem rather rushed at the end of an action story. But, as you say, in the long run.

Ideally, this would be a series - more than one book beyond the first (I have several stories in this universe planned.) so there's more than enough time to have her meet someone, say, in the army there in London or beyond. She's got a sort of romantic but sexless relationship with an inventor, but they probably won't last because he's not really interested in family and marriage, and she definitely is.

But in good time. For now she has to kick butt and fight evil undead from beyond the grave.


For now, though: I want to make sure she's not wildly offensive and respects the culture that she's coming from. Proper representation as opposed to a collection of terrible tropes and stereotypes. I'll probably ask for some chapter beta readers specifically for this angle when I'm a bit further into things.



But in good time. For now she has to kick butt and fight evil undead from beyond the grave.
 

Siri Kirpal

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Sat Nam! (Literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

I'm definitely with you on wanting more representation for the diversity that was there. And Sikhs were, and still are, a huge presence in the UK. BTW, avoid Conan Doyle. He had plenty of Sikh characters...and none of them is a Sikh.

Romantic relations aren't a big Sikh thing, since most marriages are arranged. Plenty of policemen in Britain are Sikh, and I believe there were a number of them back then too. So there's a possibility for the future. Also, whoever mentors her for turban tying might arrange a marriage. Since he would stand in loco parentis.

Oh, and when she's grieving, she'll be reading Sukhmani Sahib. This is the longest of the banis. It's optional, but nearly all recently bereaved Sikhs read it.

Feel free to count me in on the betaing.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal