Any experts on the Canadian Criminal Justice System/Law?

abielle

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I have a few questions surrounding a scenario for a young offender under 18. I have some idea of how things would play out legally but there are a lot of specifics I'm not sure of.

Now we're looking at the following charges...
A young offender charged with armed robbery/grand theft auto, vandalism (driving the car into a building), illegal weapon possession (though not armed at the time of capture so not sure if this charge factors in or not).


Questions:

What are the likely outcomes of such crimes for a young offender, including the circumstance that she might have been under duress, or possibly suffering from a form of ptsd/trauma/abuse
. Could possible sentences of community service, 2 year probation be realistic outcomes? Or is jail time a sure thing and if so, how long?

What would the judicial process look like? To be a bit more specific:
How long to go to trial? Is it faster if it is a high-profile case?
Where is she held until her trial? House arrest? Juvenile facility?


Also bonus points if anyone has actually seen the inside of a Canadian prison (especially on the West Coast) or has a working knowledge of it. Maybe can point me in the direction of books or easily accessible online resources. There's an abundance of info on the U.S. system and I know a fair amount about it but it's useless here.
 
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cornflake

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I'm not an expert on Canada but ... How young? Charged as an adult? Where can change things significantly. Those are some serious charges, but is there a reason it's going to trial?

Under duress would likely exempt the person from any charges. Having PTSD is a whole different issue; it's likely just going to be brought up as mitigating.
 

abielle

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The age is 17. I haven't quite worked out all the details. It doesn't have to go to trial and my assumption is the accused wouldn't be charged as an adult because of the implied psychological aspects and the trauma. Also, I thought (maybe incorrectly though) that despite the property damage, since no one is actually injured in the process, that would factor in keeping it a young offender case. This is a premise that I'm working a plot around but I need to figure out what I'm working with before I proceed. I hope that clarified? Also thank you for the feedback!


ETA: Also, no "proven" criminal record for the accused.
 
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cornflake

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Seventeen is likely a slam dunk on charged as an adult. How are there no injured parties? You've got armed robbery, which is a felony pretty much any way you slice it, as is the car, potentially as is the weapon, and driving a car into a building certainly has the potential to injure people.

His lawyer could argue trauma but... that's a hard sell with that list, is my first impression. I'm not sure what kind of trauma makes people commit armed robbery?
 

VeryBigBeard

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I'm not an expert on the justice system so I'm going to try to stay high-level and point you to some additional sources.

First thing is to read up on--and possibly read in full--the Youth Criminal Justice Act. This is the bundle of laws that handles most youth crime in Canada. Our criminal system is very, very different than the American system, especially with youth justice. For instance, anyone charged who's under 18 at the time of the offense is covered by an automatic publication ban.

Speaking generally, the chances of being tried as an adult are, I think, lower. It happens sometimes in murder cases. The Crown has to ask for it, there's a process, it's arduous, and it's all there in the Act in more detail than I know.

We also have completely different offense categories. Not called a felony, for instance, nor does our equivalent category behave in the same way. We don't have an offense called grand theft auto. Cases would generally be tried in provincial court, which makes a difference, too, unless they're not because provincial courts get complicated. They whole thing is different in Quebec. Again, I really can't go into specifics except to say there's a big cultural difference. There tends to be more focus on rehabilitation, especially for kids under 18. Our Charter is also fairly different than the US Constitution, which can often affect how things play out.

Sorry--this probably isn't as helpful as you were hoping for. I'm not an expert in this area, and hopefully one will be along. I only know what I've gleaned from doing a journalism degree and working briefly as a journalist.
 

abielle

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Fair point. I know YA charge is a hard sell, but I don't think it's impossible. From this article, especially where carjackings/young offenders as old as 17 are concerned the sole reason made to try it as an adult crime is because it was exceptionally violent.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...uspects-as-adults-police-say/article25298409/

In my fictional case, the accused is only brandishing the weapon, not using it and not assaulting the car owner.

And this is the UK, but still an instance where youth as old as 17 got off lightly. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18226...rs-institution-after-carjacking-female-vicar/

As for the trauma/abuse thing. I know state of mind and intent are important in determining crime. I just mention it in case it factors in. Like if something is reckless but out of desperation or what not as opposed to just teens having "fun."
 

cornflake

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Pay attention to the beard up there.

As for the trauma -- in the U.S., there are ways something can be mitigating, or lead to an up or downgrade in charging, but it'd generally have specific relevance. Past abuse (in someone who's competent), would be hard to connect to armed robbery, is what I'n saying. It's not impossible, but you'd have to have a heck of a narrative, and the other side would likely fight.

However, as other things are different, so may that be.
 

abielle

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@ Beard: Oh sorry, I was typing my post as you submitted yours. Thanks for the clarification on the names of the charges. Your points about being charged as an adult/not being charged in Canada is essentially what I was getting at in my post after yours. I took some intro Canadian law courses ( though I am a bit rusty) so I know U.S. law is very different. I tried reading up on a couple gov website for specific penalties but it's difficult to get a sense of what's realistic or plausible based on what's said there.

I think i was looking at 2 years probation, 700 hours community sevice?

Anyway. Expert or expert not, I appreciate all input!

@Cornflake: Thanks for the explanation. Good points!
ETA: lol my narrative is pretty insane. Action hero level stuff really. Just don't want it to be impossibly farfetched.
 
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VeryBigBeard

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That sentence sounds roughly similar to some cases I've seen hit the news locally. With the caveat that judging by news stories is difficulty because, again, YCJA cases rarely hit the news.

Minimum sentences and such are mostly found in the Canadian Criminal Code (outside Quebec) which can be found online and in handy little booklets at law libraries. Unfortunately, the YCJA changes all the standards and such. Start there, especially section 6. The only thing it doesn't change is the offense name, I think. So you'd still be guilty of aggravated assault or breaking and entering or whatever, but the sentencing structure is completely different.

Here's a higher-level summary with graphs!

The whole point of the Act was to focus youth sentencing in ways that are more rehabilitative. It's not uncommon to have some form of counselling attached where young people have to participate and report back to the court, sometimes with a probationary thing, too. Restorative justice, based to an extent off of indigenous practices, is also becoming a lot more popular, especially with young offenders.

The YCJA is controversial, politically. Not in a major debate kind of way, but the Conservative party are definitely not a fan of it. I don't remember the specifics, and generally even the Conservatives recognize it as a fairly practical guide.

So I don't think you're far-fetched in what you're describing.
 

abielle

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Yes, news stories are difficult, as is the case in the one I linked--they don't often tell you about the end result, just that a crime happened. Unless it's something particularly shocking. I'm not patient enough to read court procedurals either, not that I know where to find them or how to find relevant ones. Youth cases and trials are publicly accessible, just not the names/identity. Anyhow, thank you for the websites! I believe I did look at these sites before but you've pointed to me to proper section to be looking in so that's great. I might get some of the answers I'm looking for now. Fun fact, seems a YO can't get more than 240 hours community service?

As for Canadian prisons--well I'm off to Youtube. :)
 
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VeryBigBeard

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Biggest difference with our prisons is probably that they're not private. Some of them can still be badly run, badly maintained, corrupt, etc. Generally fewer scandals, although there have been worrying numbers of suicides in Canadian prisons, and there are also real issues with indigenous prison populations.

The easiest--and sometimes only--way to get the actual court documents is to go to the courts themselves. They're all on a computer there, in the courthouse. But, this being the government, that computer is a Pentium III and its heard of this Internet thing but isn't quite sure it can handle it.

Maximum sentences are very much a Thing in Canada. In general, for instance, you don't get the stacked sentences like can happen in the US, even with adult crimes. There's no 250 years in prison or such. The worst sentence we have is life in prison with no chance of parole for 25 years.

And yeah, no identities available for youth crimes. Bear in mind what this means: a publication that prints the name of a young offender is in contempt of court, and the people behind it can go to prison. News organizations very occasionally risk this, but only when it's a massive story. As for the news following court cases through? That's usually a question of resources. Not that many news orgs have a dedicated courts reporter who can go down to the courthouse and sift through all the cases, wait around, and sit through trials anymore.
 

MDSchafer

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As I understand Canadian law they have a twelve hour window from 7 p to 7 a where all crime is legal including rape and murder. It's why they're so darn polite over there, cause if you're not, watch out for Canada Day, they'll get'cha.
 

King Neptune

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As I understand Canadian law they have a twelve hour window from 7 p to 7 a where all crime is legal including rape and murder. It's why they're so darn polite over there, cause if you're not, watch out for Canada Day, they'll get'cha.

That's a wonderful idea. For clarity, did you mean that those twelve hours on Canda Day are open season? That would be a real holiday. We could emulate them by haveing twelve hours on Thanksgiving Day open season; that would give us something to be thankful for.
 

jennontheisland

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All Canadian Laws are available to you online and by ordering through the Queen's printer.

Youth justice act is online here:
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/y-1.5/

The Big Beard has covered most things. As an anecdote: my brother and some kids busted out of a youth home (not quite kiddie jail, but not exactly a pajama party either) stole a car, did some drugs, crashed the car, etc (no weapons or anything like that), and though I have no idea what happened to the other kids, my brother saw no legal consequences at all. None. He was 14. I don't think he was even properly arrested. Just detained until my mom collected him.
 

Twick

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Seventeen is likely a slam dunk on charged as an adult. How are there no injured parties? You've got armed robbery, which is a felony pretty much any way you slice it, as is the car, potentially as is the weapon, and driving a car into a building certainly has the potential to injure people.

His lawyer could argue trauma but... that's a hard sell with that list, is my first impression. I'm not sure what kind of trauma makes people commit armed robbery?

Might be true for U.S. but not Canada. It's very hard to get minors charged as adults even for homicide in Canada (see http://canadiancrc.com/Supreme_Court_Canada_Youth_Offenders_Tried_as_Adults_16MAY08.aspx for a case with a minor who was charged with manslaughter as a juvenile), and a minor with a legitimate duress/mental illness defense would be a "slam dunk" to be given minimal punishment.
 

Phyllo

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Sorry for the late response. I'm not on here very often. By way of background, it's been about 10 years since I dealt with this stuff in Toronto, though I still keep an interest by following stories in the media.

I have a few questions surrounding a scenario for a young offender under 18. I have some idea of how things would play out legally but there are a lot of specifics I'm not sure of.

Now we're looking at the following charges...
A young offender charged with armed robbery/grand theft auto, vandalism (driving the car into a building), illegal weapon possession (though not armed at the time of capture so not sure if this charge factors in or not).


Questions:

What are the likely outcomes of such crimes for a young offender, including the circumstance that she might have been under duress, or possibly suffering from a form of ptsd/trauma/abuse
. Could possible sentences of community service, 2 year probation be realistic outcomes? Or is jail time a sure thing and if so, how long?

How about ... it all depends? Your scenario assumes the youth is found guilty. But it doesn't set out (unless I missed it) whether he has a prior record. If there's no prior record, then there's a good chance he won't be sentenced to custody. That might be different in a smaller urban centre than in a large city like Toronto, but community service under a two year probation order is entirely realistic with the right evidence on sentencing.


What would the judicial process look like? To be a bit more specific:
How long to go to trial? Is it faster if it is a high-profile case?
Where is she held until her trial? House arrest? Juvenile facility?

Kind of hard to say how long till trial because there are so many variables. The most important is whether or not the kid gets bail. If he's detained at bail, then trial will typically happen pretty fast (previously, say, 4 months if everything is straightforward). Otherwise, a year was more realistic. A high-profile case wouldn't result in a quicker trial, if anything it'd likely be slower simply because there's something extraordinary that might require greater attention by the Crown and more effort by the police investigators (so presumably it's more complex). In the scenario you've described, there's nothing that suggests it's high-profile. As someone else mentioned, publicity bans are the norm, in the sense that the media can't report in a way that would identify the youth.

Young people are detained in special youth facilities separate from adult facilities. Again, pre-trial it depends on bail. They can be detained in the facility (and in both Toronto and BC the gov't has constructed "super-jails" for youths, and these are problematic in terms of their high levels of violence, especially due to gangs). But more commonly, youths are released pending trial if there is an adequate supervision plan (e.g., parents are responsible people, the kid is in school).


Also bonus points if anyone has actually seen the inside of a Canadian prison (especially on the West Coast) or has a working knowledge of it. Maybe can point me in the direction of books or easily accessible online resources. There's an abundance of info on the U.S. system and I know a fair amount about it but it's useless here.[/QUOTE

I've been "inside" the old downtown youth detention centre in Toronto but that's no use to you because now there are superjails. Typically lawyers can only go in as far as the interview facilities. You can google 'superjail' 'youth' 'burnaby' and should turn up news articles on the facility.

Oh yeah, and adult sentences are extremely rare. The burden is on the crown, and it can only apply in a limited category of cases, but judges are loathe to make such orders beyond the exceptional cases (not just murder, but some particularly aggravating circumstances).

Hope that helps.

 

Captcha

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I work with teenagers in rural Ontario, and have in general been pretty impressed with the police response to teen misdeeds. The emphasis on rehabilitation doesn't seem to be a "sure, in theory" kind of thing... the goal of the system, and of most of the people working the system, really does seem to be on getting the kids back on the right track rather than punishing them.

So, detention is pretty rare, in my experience. And at least where I am, it tends to be in a fairly rehabilitation-friendly facility when it does occur. Lots of education, therapy, etc. I'm not saying they're pleasant places to be, but the intentions are good, at least.

So for your case, I'd say a lot of factors that might weigh in would include prior misdeeds or a pattern of behaviour that hasn't been corrected by less severe consequences; the supports available outside of detention, and the likelihood that the teen will take advantage of those supports; any drug or alcohol use and willingness (or not) to seek treatment for that; any mental illness and willingness (or not) to seek treatment for that; etc.

So if your guy has never been in trouble before, has a solid family or other adult influences that are willing to step up and help out, was drunk or high at the time of the crime and has shown willingness to get treatment, and/or was struggling with mental health at the time of the crime and is showing willingness to get treatment, I'd say your proposed sentence would be realistic.

You might also want to look at pre-trial diversion. I'm not sure what level of crime can be covered by this, but it's definitely something that the police in my area are keen on. It essentially keeps the kid out of the court system entirely, although I don't know all the details of how this is done.
 

abielle

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I've been away for a bit, but just wanted to thank everyone for the input! Definitely think I'm on the right track now.