Non-expert opinion on dyslexia

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ThunderBoots

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My main character is a young American woman who struggles mightily with reading English but finds reading/memorizing Chinese characters unexpectedly easy.

Here's my question: Dyslexia takes many different forms, but I think that most people understand dyslexia to fundamentally be the flipping and switching of letters. If this is your understanding of dyslexia, would you immediately believe it's possible to be dyslexic in written English but fluent in written Chinese?

Or would you wonder why the written Chinese characters aren't flipping around as well, and would have some doubts (difficulty suspending disbelief)?

I've done my research, and I know my scenario is possible. But my book isn't meant to teach people about dyslexia -- I mean, it can, but I wonder how many people (say, literary agents) would have trouble believing this in a query letter.

Thanks for your personal insight!
 

Marlys

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I guess the reason I'd have trouble with this sort of dyslexia, at least initially, is that it's not my experience at all. For me, dyslexia isn't just about letters--it's an inability to reliably figure out left from right in virtually all contexts. So, it's not just that I'll mix up d and b when writing by hand (reading is generally fine, until I get really tired and then reading signs can be hilarious), but anything with a left/right or east/west orientation. I'm pretty sure that I would have the same trouble with Chinese characters.

Would I believe in your character? You'd need to explain her form of dyslexia somehow, most easily by having her tell someone else about the frustrations it causes. Then I'd probably stop and look it up to confirm that it does exist (don't feel singled out--I look up things all the time). Once I did, I'd accept it and read on.
 

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A question for Marlys:
In a way, yours is not a "non-expert" opinion on dyslexia since you deal with one version that doesn't involve flipping letters. But since you know that there are different ways one can be dyslexic (the left/right problem is quite common, but not universal) -- why would you have doubts? Just curious. Also, I see why writing Chinese might be difficult for you, but why reading it?

For L.Y.: Thanks for the research. It actually was the Economist article that got me thinking along these lines.

My main character does go over what is happening when she reads English, and by extension, why Chinese is easier. It has to do with shapes, patterns and her mind sort of jumping to conclusions.

The first few letters of an English word might register, but then she's really registering more of the shape of the whole word rather than the following letters. And she gets distracted by the patterns or appearances of the spaces between words and lines (especially white spaces between black). So her mind jumps to fill in the blank after the few letters with a similar word. So, for example, she'll first read "continue" as "contempt" ... and even if she stares at it, she'll see "contempt." It's only be slowing down and considering alternatives to "contempt" that make more sense/logic is she able to eventually read a word, a sentence.

Her attention to shapes and patterns, and the direct link between a Chinese character and its meaning (versus the intermediary link of sounding out the word the letters form), is what makes her Chinese fluency easy.

Now, I'm going to have to make this clear in the novel -- sure. But I can't go into such detail in a query letter. So, again, I'm wondering if being dyslexic in English but fluent in Chinese is counter-intuitive or seems perfectly reasonable on the surface to a general audience.
 

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Dyslexia isn't just flipping letters though - lots of times the letters move, blur, etc., as well as get mixed up, so yeah, I'd find that hard to believe unless it was well-explained somehow. I also presume dyslexic people in China have problems reading.
 

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Dyslexia does come in different intensity and forms, though. As a child I was utterly unable to tell 6s from 9s and could not read an analog watch until I was a teenager--but I never had trouble with text. So, personally, think a language-specific form is possible.
 

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I know dyslexics who can read music easily, even sight read it, so it's not just "flipping" letters. Some have trouble with certain letters, others have problems with left-right distinctions and reading.

And there's the subclass of people who read well, but had to have "L" and "R" on the backs of their hands in driver's ed. My tribe. :Hug2:

It's your story and if that's her form of dyslexia, just briefly mention how it works to the extent it is important to the plot.
 

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A question for Marlys:
In a way, yours is not a "non-expert" opinion on dyslexia since you deal with one version that doesn't involve flipping letters. But since you know that there are different ways one can be dyslexic (the left/right problem is quite common, but not universal) -- why would you have doubts? Just curious.

Writers often get things wrong or fudge things that don't in reality work the way that's needed for their story. If I'm curious about what they've written, I'll look it up to see if it's something that exists that I haven't seen before, or if they fudged it. I'm happy when I learn something new, especially since if I read another book that features the same thing, I won't have to look it up then.

Also, I see why writing Chinese might be difficult for you, but why reading it?
I don't know. I've never tried. I did say I assume I'd have the same orientation issues as I do in English--and in life in general.
 

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So, if I'm understanding cornflake, veinglory and Tsu Dho Minh (love the pseudonym!) correctly ...

You folks all understand, like me, that dyslexia isn't just the "flipping" of letters (say, b/d, p/q). But it appears that with perhaps the exception of cornflake, you all have personal experience with different types of dyslexia.

I'm wondering about the average person who has no personal experience. Does the average American think of dyslexia (incorrectly) as there being one type of dyslexia -- probably thinking of the flipping/shifting letters? And if so, would the average American's reaction to a character who is dyslexic in English but fluent in Chinese be: "No way!"

That's the question I have, although I appreciate everyone who takes the time to respond.
 

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I don't have dyslexia, no, nor does anyone in my family that I know of, so my knowledge is just general, yeah; I've known a couple people with it, but I'd wager most people have at some point.
 

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Thanks for the additional info, cornflake. Does my explanation above (above the form of dyslexia my MC has, the deal with shapes/patterns, jumping to a similar word) make sense to you?
 

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Writers often get things wrong or fudge things that don't in reality work the way that's needed for their story. If I'm curious about what they've written, I'll look it up to see if it's something that exists that I haven't seen before, or if they fudged it. I'm happy when I learn something new, especially since if I read another book that features the same thing, I won't have to look it up then.


I don't know. I've never tried. I did say I assume I'd have the same orientation issues as I do in English--and in life in general.

I don't know how common my MC's form of dyslexia is, but it does exist -- I know since my friend has this way of reading, and has also studied Chinese.

I am like you. I want my writers to save the fiction-writing to the other elements, and keep to real historical/cultural/scientific facts so I can be educated. No fudging. My novel is historical fiction, and I've really done my research.

I wonder how you'd do with writing Chinese. Interesting.
 
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A question for Marlys:
My main character does go over what is happening when she reads English, and by extension, why Chinese is easier. It has to do with shapes, patterns and her mind sort of jumping to conclusions.

The first few letters of an English word might register, but then she's really registering more of the shape of the whole word rather than the following letters. And she gets distracted by the patterns or appearances of the spaces between words and lines (especially white spaces between black). So her mind jumps to fill in the blank after the few letters with a similar word. So, for example, she'll first read "continue" as "contempt" ... and even if she stares at it, she'll see "contempt." It's only be slowing down and considering alternatives to "contempt" that make more sense/logic is she able to eventually read a word, a sentence.

Her attention to shapes and patterns, and the direct link between a Chinese character and its meaning (versus the intermediary link of sounding out the word the letters form), is what makes her Chinese fluency easy.

Now, I'm going to have to make this clear in the novel -- sure. But I can't go into such detail in a query letter. So, again, I'm wondering if being dyslexic in English but fluent in Chinese is counter-intuitive or seems perfectly reasonable on the surface to a general audience.

Do you want to rewrite the story so that your character isn't realistically dyslexic in order to fit the preconceptions of people who know nothing about dyslexia? If the answer to that is no, then don't worry about what the general audience will think. Work on getting it right, rather than fitting people's notions of what dyslexia means.

On Chinese characters and dyslexia, I can read a small amount of Chinese and I'm dyslexic. The difference between Chinese characters and the Western alphabet is that reversals don't matter a whole lot. It's more like reversing a k than reversing a d. Characters don't usually become other characters when they're reversed. So on a character by character level, it is easier to read. But there are still things like whitespace issues. Also, Chinese requires learning a very large number of characters, which is going to be difficult for most people. This is why I read like a toddler.

My caution is that people see the thing about Chinese being easier than English for dyslexics and jump to the conclusion that it means it's easy for dyslexics. Easier doesn't mean easy. It's still learning a language that has a very complex writing system, and where prior knowledge of English won't help at all. My advice would be not to treat Chinese like the magic button that will let her read, because it really isn't. It's more that it's a relief that it matters a whole lot less which way things are pointing.

Also, dyslexic people don't automatically know why something is easier or harder. I didn't when I was young. It's taken a lot of years to understand why text moves sometimes, why some fonts are harder to read than others, and things like that. As a child/teen, I'd simply have known that this was hard to read and that wasn't. Even now, I wouldn't necessarily launch into a lengthy explanation about it if I was narrating my life. You don't need to be a textbook because you think some readers might not understand dyslexia.
 
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Do you want to rewrite the story so that your character isn't realistically dyslexic in order to fit the preconceptions of people who know nothing about dyslexia? If the answer to that is no, then don't worry about what the general audience will think. Work on getting it right, rather than fitting people's notions of what dyslexia means.

Yes, your point is a very good one. Still, I would be interested to know if it will sound outlandish to the average American.

Chinese characters and dyslexia, I can read a small amount of Chinese and I'm dyslexic. The difference between Chinese characters and the Western alphabet is that reversals don't matter a whole lot. It's more like reversing a k than reversing a d. Characters don't usually become other characters when they're reversed. So on a character by character level, it is easier to read. But there are still things like whitespace issues. Also, Chinese requires learning a very large number of characters, which is going to be difficult for most people. This is why I read like a toddler.

Good point about the white-space issue, too. If she has the problem in English, it shouldn't just disappear in Chinese. As for the memorization of characters -- I've never found it particularly difficult. I found French grammar, conjugations (etc.) much harder. Memorization of Chinese characters has been much more straightforward, perhaps because I'm more visually oriented than most folks.

It's still learning a language that has a very complex writing system, and where prior knowledge of English won't help at all. My advice would be not to treat Chinese like the magic button that will let her read, because it really isn't. It's more that it's a relief that it matters a whole lot less which way things are pointing.

Yes, that relief is important in my narrative. Plus the relief that she doesn't have to hide her inability to read, the shame she feels when faced with English, being called stupid, etc. She can still find that all very magical.
 
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Yes, I guess - I mean that's how most fluent readers (of English) read; that's why that exercise with the paragraph made of words with the first and last letter correct but the other letters scrambled, works.

I didn't know Chinese characters stood for entire things, so much, I guess, so I get it, but I don't see how they wouldn't just be read to mean something else, like with three lines in one place instead of two, or something, or how then, dyslexia manifests in native Chinese (or any pictographic-type native language) speakers/readers. I'd get it, in other words, but have questions, heh. Just me, someone else may not or may have entirely different q. or... etc.
 

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I didn't know Chinese characters stood for entire things, so much, I guess, so I get it, but I don't see how they wouldn't just be read to mean something else, like with three lines in one place instead of two, or something, or how then, dyslexia manifests in native Chinese (or any pictographic-type native language) speakers/readers. I'd get it, in other words, but have questions, heh. Just me, someone else may not or may have entirely different q. or... etc.

I don't know anything about being dyslexic in Chinese -- the underlying problem, or how it manifests itself.
But with English dyslexia, I've read (no pun intended!) the underlying problem is related to the link between letters and sounds, which leads to meaning. That is, in English, you have to grasp how each letter sounds -- then process how they sound together -- which gives you the word, which you process to reach the meaning.
In reading Chinese, you don't need to process any sounds. It's all visual. A Chinese character's shape/pattern directly equals a meaning. You can learn to read Chinese without ever learning how to actually speak the language.
 

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Well wait, that can't be correct, as plenty of deaf people are perfectly well able to read and write, despite never having heard any sound at all.
 

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Hi, I was a teacher of the learning handicapped in Los Angeles for nearly 30 years. All of my students were tested by a school psychologist as well as by me before being identified as having a specific learning disability. We rarely used the word "dyslexia" but, of course, we knew what parents meant when they said they thought their child was dyslexic. I specifically remember one very bright little boy who was tested and identified for my class. The psychologist told me that if he were Chinese, he probably would NOT have any trouble learning to read. I don't recall what specific test she had given him, but he was exceptionally good at seeing abstract shapes and remembering them. He learned to read in English using a whole word recognition system that I devised.
 

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Dyslexia interfere with a person's ability to process speech sounds, including the ability break words down into their component syllables or parts, or to sub-vocalize, which makes it hard to "sound out" words, among other things, and to be able to correlate letters with sounds in their minds. They can also have issues with the visual recognition of entire words, which would presumably be an issue for recognizing symbols in languages like Chinese. Not all dyslexics have equal severity or symptoms, though. I remember hearing somewhere that it's rarer in China, but I don't know if that's true. There are numerous myths surrounding the condition.

It's actually a bit of a myth that inverting letters or mirror writing is a reliable sign of dyslexia. Most kids invert letters when they're first learning to write, and there seems to be quite a lot of disagreement over the percentage of dyslexics who show this symptom. There are other problems, including visual processing issues (dyslexia has nothing to do with vision), that can also lead kids to persist in inverting letters, but they're not the same thing as dyslexia. Dyslexics can sometimes invert spoken words too, because (according to many researchers) they don't process the sounds that make up words the same way most people do.

Anecdotally, I've noticed that a lot of people will invert sounds and letters that are unfamiliar to them or present in unfamiliar combinations, as is common with medical terminology, even when they're not dyslexic. For instance, it's really common for students to mispronounce the word "pharynx" as "fare nix," instead of "fare inx." They obviously "see" and remember the word with the n before the y. It's so ingrained, many persist in the mispronunciation, even when it's pointed out to them.

As for the issue of whether or not an average lay reader will be knocked out of the story by your character's having an easier time with Chinese symbols. It wouldn't bother me, because as I understand it, dyslexic symptoms and difficulties can vary between individuals (though there are difficulties dyslexics have in reading and writing other languages, including Chinese).

I recommend researching this carefully to find out whether there are English speaking dyslexics who have an easier time remembering how to write Chinese characters.

I don't know if avoiding something simply because many people believe a myth about it is the best way to go. I suspect agents and editors are more savvy about things like this than the average person also, though I've certainly encountered scientific mistakes in works of fiction that clearly did get past the editorial staff. I think it would be harmful to perpetuate myths many already have about dyslexia, like the notion that dyslexics "see" things backwards, or that letter inversion is a reliable symptom, or whatever. If you're really concerned about readers not understanding this, it might be handy to include some kind of introduction that explains what dyslexia actually is (and isn't).
 

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My main character is a young American woman who struggles mightily with reading English but finds reading/memorizing Chinese characters unexpectedly easy.

Here's my question: Dyslexia takes many different forms, but I think that most people understand dyslexia to fundamentally be the flipping and switching of letters. If this is your understanding of dyslexia, would you immediately believe it's possible to be dyslexic in written English but fluent in written Chinese?

Or would you wonder why the written Chinese characters aren't flipping around as well, and would have some doubts (difficulty suspending disbelief)?

I've done my research, and I know my scenario is possible. But my book isn't meant to teach people about dyslexia -- I mean, it can, but I wonder how many people (say, literary agents) would have trouble believing this in a query letter.

Thanks for your personal insight!

I'm another person with experience of dyslexia.

Dyslexia isn't "fundamentally be the flipping and switching of letters": it's a problem with language processing, organisation, and memory. I intensely dislike the minimising of the condition which is prevalent in the media and elsewhere, as it leads to people with dyslexia being judged as lazy. So not only does your presentation of it here not work for me, I actually find it offensive.

Also, note that Chinese "characters" are a lot different to our alphabet.

Your scenarios might be possible but it's not convincing, to me, at least.

Do you want to rewrite the story so that your character isn't realistically dyslexic in order to fit the preconceptions of people who know nothing about dyslexia? If the answer to that is no, then don't worry about what the general audience will think. Work on getting it right, rather than fitting people's notions of what dyslexia means.

On Chinese characters and dyslexia, I can read a small amount of Chinese and I'm dyslexic. The difference between Chinese characters and the Western alphabet is that reversals don't matter a whole lot. It's more like reversing a k than reversing a d. Characters don't usually become other characters when they're reversed. So on a character by character level, it is easier to read. But there are still things like whitespace issues. Also, Chinese requires learning a very large number of characters, which is going to be difficult for most people. This is why I read like a toddler.

My caution is that people see the thing about Chinese being easier than English for dyslexics and jump to the conclusion that it means it's easy for dyslexics. Easier doesn't mean easy. It's still learning a language that has a very complex writing system, and where prior knowledge of English won't help at all. My advice would be not to treat Chinese like the magic button that will let her read, because it really isn't. It's more that it's a relief that it matters a whole lot less which way things are pointing.

Also, dyslexic people don't automatically know why something is easier or harder. I didn't when I was young. It's taken a lot of years to understand why text moves sometimes, why some fonts are harder to read than others, and things like that. As a child/teen, I'd simply have known that this was hard to read and that wasn't. Even now, I wouldn't necessarily launch into a lengthy explanation about it if I was narrating my life. You don't need to be a textbook because you think some readers might not understand dyslexia.

Yep to all of this.

Dyslexia interfere with a person's ability to process speech sounds, including the ability break words down into their component syllables or parts, or to sub-vocalize, which makes it hard to "sound out" words, among other things, and to be able to correlate letters with sounds in their minds. They can also have issues with the visual recognition of entire words, which would presumably be an issue for recognizing symbols in languages like Chinese. Not all dyslexics have equal severity or symptoms, though. I remember hearing somewhere that it's rarer in China, but I don't know if that's true. There are numerous myths surrounding the condition.

It's actually a bit of a myth that inverting letters or mirror writing is a reliable sign of dyslexia. Most kids invert letters when they're first learning to write, and there seems to be quite a lot of disagreement over the percentage of dyslexics who show this symptom. There are other problems, including visual processing issues (dyslexia has nothing to do with vision), that can also lead kids to persist in inverting letters, but they're not the same thing as dyslexia. Dyslexics can sometimes invert spoken words too, because (according to many researchers) they don't process the sounds that make up words the same way most people do.

Anecdotally, I've noticed that a lot of people will invert sounds and letters that are unfamiliar to them or present in unfamiliar combinations, as is common with medical terminology, even when they're not dyslexic. For instance, it's really common for students to mispronounce the word "pharynx" as "fare nix," instead of "fare inx." They obviously "see" and remember the word with the n before the y. It's so ingrained, many persist in the mispronunciation, even when it's pointed out to them.

As for the issue of whether or not an average lay reader will be knocked out of the story by your character's having an easier time with Chinese symbols. It wouldn't bother me, because as I understand it, dyslexic symptoms and difficulties can vary between individuals (though there are difficulties dyslexics have in reading and writing other languages, including Chinese).

I recommend researching this carefully to find out whether there are English speaking dyslexics who have an easier time remembering how to write Chinese characters.

I don't know if avoiding something simply because many people believe a myth about it is the best way to go. I suspect agents and editors are more savvy about things like this than the average person also, though I've certainly encountered scientific mistakes in works of fiction that clearly did get past the editorial staff. I think it would be harmful to perpetuate myths many already have about dyslexia, like the notion that dyslexics "see" things backwards, or that letter inversion is a reliable symptom, or whatever. If you're really concerned about readers not understanding this, it might be handy to include some kind of introduction that explains what dyslexia actually is (and isn't).

And yep to this, too.

If you want to use dyslexia as a plot device, at least present it in a true way, and don't try to mould it to fit your plot.
 

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Dyslexia isn't "fundamentally be the flipping and switching of letters": it's a problem with language processing, organisation, and memory. I intensely dislike the minimising of the condition which is prevalent in the media and elsewhere, as it leads to people with dyslexia being judged as lazy. So not only does your presentation of it here not work for me, I actually find it offensive.

I'm sorry, but I don't know what you find offensive. I've repeatedly said that I know that dyslexia isn't just the flipping of letters; I've said that it's fundamentally linked to sound processing and the linking of sounds to meaning; I've said it's more complex and varied than most people believe.

Furthermore, I started out by saying my MC's dyslexia doesn't fit the stereotypical version that I think the average American holds of the condition. So I asked if the average American would find my MC's situation possible, seeing as I believe the average American doesn't understand the condition well.

But -- here's the key -- I don't want to ASSUME anything. I believe the average American reader's simplified understanding of dyslexia might cause him or her to find my MC implausible and thus not read on. I don't know for sure, so I wanted to hear from people here.

My original question was not "tell me if this type of dyslexia is possible," but do people out there in AW-land without personal experience of dyslexia (non-experts) believe my MC's situation is possible and thus would be able to go along for the fictional ride (as it were).

, note that Chinese "characters" are a lot different to our alphabet.

Have you read anything I've written above? You think you have to point this out to me?

If you want to use dyslexia as a plot device, at least present it in a true way, and don't try to mould it to fit your plot.


I'm not using dyslexia as a simple "plot device" -- nor trying to make up anything about dyslexia for my convenience. My MC's dyslexia is presented in an accurate manner.

Again, my original question was: I know it is possible (true), but will the average American reader (who may inaccurately think that dyslexia is the flipping of letters)?

To be completely honest, I find your reply offensive. You write as if I'm some idiot, who doesn't even know that Chinese characters are very different from our alphabet ... who doesn't know anything about dyslexia and hasn't bothered to research anything ... because I'm lazy and am planning on making things up to move my plot along.
 
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Dyslexia interfere with a person's ability to process speech sounds, including the ability break words down into their component syllables or parts, or to sub-vocalize, which makes it hard to "sound out" words, among other things, and to be able to correlate letters with sounds in their minds.

Yes, and thank you for explaining it so much better than I have here.

As for the issue of whether or not an average lay reader will be knocked out of the story by your character's having an easier time with Chinese symbols. It wouldn't bother me, because as I understand it, dyslexic symptoms and difficulties can vary between individuals (though there are difficulties dyslexics have in reading and writing other languages, including Chinese).

I recommend researching this carefully to find out whether there are English speaking dyslexics who have an easier time remembering how to write Chinese characters.

Thank you for answering my original question. I'm glad to hear that you wouldn't have problems with it ... but then again, you clearly aren't a non-expert, but very knowledgeable!

I have researched this situation, and found a famous (ok, maybe not) case of a boy who had this situation -- albeit with Japanese kanji, but the essential situation is the same. Furthermore, as I briefly mentioned above, I have a friend with dyslexia in this manner who found studying/reading Chinese so much easier than reading English.

I don't know if avoiding something simply because many people believe a myth about it is the best way to go. I suspect agents and editors are more savvy about things like this than the average person also, though I've certainly encountered scientific mistakes in works of fiction that clearly did get past the editorial staff. I think it would be harmful to perpetuate myths many already have about dyslexia, like the notion that dyslexics "see" things backwards, or that letter inversion is a reliable symptom, or whatever. If you're really concerned about readers not understanding this, it might be handy to include some kind of introduction that explains what dyslexia actually is (and isn't).
Yes, you're right, of course. I shouldn't avoid writing about something that's real just because I'm afraid the average reader holds misconceptions. I like your idea of having an introduction that dispels the myths and explains what dyslexia actually is. That's something to discuss with an agent. Right now, though, I'm only working on the query letter. I hope you're right about agents being better informed.

Thanks!
 
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ThunderBoots

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:hooray: I'd like to thank everybody who took the time and effort to respond to my question. I didn't get the type of survey answers I was expecting, but I have come away with something even better. It's nice when life works out that way, no?
 

Cath

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You know, the best response if you disagree with what someone is saying is to thank them for their input and walk away.

We're going to take a break from this thread for a little while until I can pay more attention.
 
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