Hey, you folks in cold climates.... window condensation?

heza · Dec 8, 2016

So... I recently moved from Houston (where it's rarely even chilly) to Oklahoma (where it's 21 degrees F today!). In Houston, there wasn't a lot of temperature difference between indoors and outdoors in the winter, just in the summer when it was 100+ outside and 70s inside. But here, it's the opposite: It's very cold outside and the heater is on inside the apartment. I wake up every morning with huge puddles of water on all the window sills from the condensation.

Does anyone who lives in a colder climate have this problem? I started putting towels on the window sills to soak up the water at night, but they get wet and nasty and I don't really want to be washing ALL of my towels every other day. Now, I'm wiping up the water with paper towels when I wake up, but I feel like I'm just soaking through roll after roll and that's wasteful.

Does this happen to you? Do you have a better method for dealing with it?

Alessandra Kelley · Dec 8, 2016

Condensation inside means your windows have terrible insulation. (It's also a sign that your apartment is losing heat through the windows.) That's not supposed to happen.

I don't suppose there is any hope of your landlord improving the window insulation?

If not, hardware stores sell temporary window insulation kits that are basically large pieces of thick plastic wrap you stick to the inside of your window with double-sided tape. They are flimsy and temporary, but do provide just that much more insulation (and draft prevention).

WriterDude · Dec 8, 2016

Moisture absorbers. You can get disposable containers that take the water from the air. Can't find a link at the moment but amazon sell them. Theyre really good at stopping condensation, and the inevitable black mold that collects wherever there is still air. The backs of cupboards and draws etc can get quite bad. Keep air vents open where possible too. Keep lids on saucepan too when boiling food and use an extractor fan if you got one.

Condensation is the bane of my life.

Wicked · Dec 8, 2016

Desiccants are great for closets and basements, if you have a humidity problem, but I don't think they can do anything to help with poor insulation.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0029EGUNG/?tag=absowrit-20

Alessandra Kelley · Dec 8, 2016

Ah, yes, I don't actually live in a particularly humid climate, so my advice is probably less helpful than that of people who do.

cornflake · Dec 8, 2016

Yeah, that's not normal and is a problem with the windows/how they're set in the frames. The only time I ever get moisture on the inside of windows is the one in the kitchen right by the sink, if there's a bunch of hot water running on a very cold day; the part of the window closest to the sink will get a bit like on the inside of a car window. It just dissipates on its own.

I'd call the landlord, or try caulking?

Marissa D · Dec 8, 2016

But you're right about the window issue--if they're single-paned, or double-paned but have lost the seal between the panes, then condensation will be a problem. The DIY kit will help some.

Wicked · Dec 8, 2016

It's drier than mummified road kill here, but we still have double pained windows.

Found this link, hopefully it helps.
https://www.thermalwindows.com/condensation.php

Is there anything I can do to my windows to eliminate condensation?
If you have windows with single-pane glass, you should seriously consider replacing them with windows that have double-paned glass with a low-e coating and argon gas filling. This is not guaranteed to eliminate condentation, but it should significantly reduce the visible signs of excessive humidity.
Is window condensation really reduced that much with double-pane insulating glass?
Yes. Double-pane insulating glass permits about 37% relative indoor humidity (at 70 F inside, 0 F outside) without condensation. Single-pane windows permit just 12% relative indoor humidity.

AW Admin · Dec 8, 2016

heza said:
So... I recently moved from Houston (where it's rarely even chilly) to Oklahoma (where it's 21 degrees F today!). In Houston, there wasn't a lot of temperature difference between indoors and outdoors in the winter, just in the summer when it was 100+ outside and 70s inside. But here, it's the opposite: It's very cold outside and the heater is on inside the apartment. I wake up every morning with huge puddles of water on all the window sills from the condensation.

Does anyone who lives in a colder climate have this problem? I started putting towels on the window sills to soak up the water at night, but they get wet and nasty and I don't really want to be washing ALL of my towels every other day. Now, I'm wiping up the water with paper towels when I wake up, but I feel like I'm just soaking through roll after roll and that's wasteful.

Does this happen to you? Do you have a better method for dealing with it?

I'd inspect the caulking; sounds like it might be in need of help. And yes, talk to the landlord.

There are also inexpensive window insulation kits; basically it's a roll of special clear plastic, and special tape. You tape sheets of clear plastic up inside the house, over the window. The plastic shrinks a bit so there's a tight fit and the tape seals it, but can be easily and safely removed in Spring. 3M is the maker of the one I've used; they're available at places like Lowes and online; it's about 10.00 for three to five windows of "normal" size. And it does help; no drafts, no more condensation. But you need to completely dry the inside of the window before applying.

I use paper towels to dry, followed by a bit of hair dryer use.

heza · Dec 8, 2016

Thanks, y'all.

It was surprising for me because, like, as far as humidity goes, we're having the opposite problem everywhere else: our skin is dry, garlic cloves are desiccating faster, the dog has to have fish oil now for her dry skin. It's a big change from the super humidity we had before. And yet.... But the windows do seem to be the only real issue.

I will talk to the complex management. They're very friendly and accommodating, and if I couch it as the damaging issue it's becoming, they might care. The water sometimes accumulates such that it runs down the wall into the carpet. The water sits in the corners of the... I have no idea what it's called, the part of the wall that frames the window, at the sides of the sill... anyway, water sits there, and those parts of the paint and dry wall are soggy and are starting to crack and dent inward. It will definitely mold unless we can get it completely dried out before it gets warm, again.

However... now that I'm inspecting the windows, there's a lot of caulk, as if it's been caulked over and over again. And the places where the drywall is crumbling appear to have been painted recently. I think this must have been an ongoing issue they elected to fix cosmetically only. Our carpet is also bad. It's way to shabby to have been left in place for what we're paying for rent. I can see the padding between the seams, they're so threadbare now.

So the answer is very likely going to be the insulation kits. That's for suggesting it, everyone who did! I'll start checking them out.

MaeZe · Dec 8, 2016

Marissa D said:
But you're right about the window issue--if they're single-paned, or double-paned but have lost the seal between the panes, then condensation will be a problem. The DIY kit will help some.

This ^. And if they are single paned windows chances are the landlord is well aware of the problem. It's a big expense to replace all the windows in older buildings but that's what's needed.

stormie · Dec 8, 2016

I live in NJ. Years ago, my mother had Pella windows installed in her family room and kept the 70-year old windows in the rest of the house. When the cold set in, the old windows rattled but there was no condensation. The new Pella windows had a lot of condensation. We found out, after renovating the house, that the Pella windows were never installed correctly, thus the condensation. (She had used a local guy who wasn't really a window installer or affiliated with Pella.)

So, it could be the way the windows were installed. In that case, as others have said, take some DIY measures.

chompers · Dec 8, 2016

Oy, your electricity bill is going to be sky high with all the lost heat. Definitely get your landlord to do something. I'm going to bet your bill will be at least $300 a month if nothing is done.

Chris P · Dec 8, 2016

I put up my window films last weekend, and it makes a huge difference in temperature especially on windy days. Less than ten bucks and under an hour to put up.

However, I still have condensation (not usually as bad as yours except at the worst). I was going to suggest a dehumidifier but from your description of the garlic and skin issues it sounds like you're dry enough already. I live in a 75 year old brick building (double paned windows but they're easily 15 or more years old) and I suspect my moisture is seeping up from the crawl space below me. If I find a solution I'll let you know. So far I'm just wiping off the window sills a couple times a day.

ETA: my condensation is on the window sill itself (on my side of the film) and not on the windows (behind the film) once the film was up. Everything looks sealed from the inside but maybe not the outside?

jjdebenedictis · Dec 8, 2016

The amount of condensation you're describing is not normal, and I say that as a Canadian who used to live in the arctic.

You should not only speak to the managers but also contact them in writing (email or a registered letter), because that much condensation could cause mold or mildew damage to your property, or mold- or mildew-related health impacts to you and your household.

And those facts are probably going to be the most persuasive to the management company, because if you inform them of the problem, and they don't fix it, and something happens to your property or a member of your household, you could then sue them.

So the convincing arguments you should take to them are:

- This will eventually rot out the window sills and wall of the property.
- This is probably boosting the heating bill badly.
- This could cause mold and mildew issues, and
- If they don't protect your household against mold and mildew issues, it could leave them open to a lawsuit.

In the meanwhile, there are ways to reduce the amount of condensation in a home:
- Squeegee off your tiles after a shower, then run the fan for at least an hour.
- Put a lid on pots when you're cooking with liquid and use your kitchen fan at the same time.
- Don't air-dry clothes in the house.
- Fish tanks can add a lot of humidity to the house.
- Move large items of furniture a few inches away from the home's outer walls to allow circulation.
- Keeping the house warmer helps fight condensation but it will raise your heating bill

MaeZe · Dec 8, 2016

heza said:
Thanks, y'all.

It was surprising for me because, like, as far as humidity goes, we're having the opposite problem everywhere else: our skin is dry, garlic cloves are desiccating faster, the dog has to have fish oil now for her dry skin. It's a big change from the super humidity we had before. And yet.... But the windows do seem to be the only real issue.

I will talk to the complex management. They're very friendly and accommodating, and if I couch it as the damaging issue it's becoming, they might care. The water sometimes accumulates such that it runs down the wall into the carpet. The water sits in the corners of the... I have no idea what it's called, the part of the wall that frames the window, at the sides of the sill... anyway, water sits there, and those parts of the paint and dry wall are soggy and are starting to crack and dent inward. It will definitely mold unless we can get it completely dried out before it gets warm, again.

However... now that I'm inspecting the windows, there's a lot of caulk, as if it's been caulked over and over again. And the places where the drywall is crumbling appear to have been painted recently. I think this must have been an ongoing issue they elected to fix cosmetically only. Our carpet is also bad. It's way to shabby to have been left in place for what we're paying for rent. I can see the padding between the seams, they're so threadbare now.

So the answer is very likely going to be the insulation kits. That's for suggesting it, everyone who did! I'll start checking them out.

So are they single pane windows? Curious minds want to know.

heza · Dec 10, 2016

They are single pane.

I went to the management office and they said it was just something that happens in some of the apartments. They assured me it wasn't the windows themselves, so I'm left to assume they weren't installed properly... or we're on the side of the apartment that gets the most wind/shade and that makes a difference. The maintenance guy came by and looked at them. He said he has the same problem with his windows and just doesn't know what to do about it. He doesn't see any problems with the outside or inside seals. *shrugs* I guess the windows are just too thin, being single pane and all.

He said he'll do some more research and see if he can figure something out. But he did say that it's a known issue and they have to repair the areas around the windows sometimes. They never hold residents accountable for that kind of damage. We don't have any belongings near the windows.

Interestingly, the windows themselves don't have condensation. It's the metallic parts on the sides... the sash? I've started putting folded up towels in the corners and right in the middle before bed to catch the water running down.

Hopefully, the coldest part of the winter won't last too long. Of course, now, given how poorly we seem to be sealed up... the electric bill in the summer is likely to be huge too, as we'll be losing the cool air, then.

MaeZe · Dec 10, 2016

heza said:
They are single pane.

I went to the management office and they said it was just something that happens in some of the apartments. They assured me it wasn't the windows themselves, so I'm left to assume they weren't installed properly... or we're on the side of the apartment that gets the most wind/shade and that makes a difference. The maintenance guy came by and looked at them. He said he has the same problem with his windows and just doesn't know what to do about it. He doesn't see any problems with the outside or inside seals. *shrugs* I guess the windows are just too thin, being single pane and all. ...

It's my opinion your landlord is ignorant or lying to you.

It's basic physics.

Moisture vapor in the air condenses on cold surfaces. Water vapor condenses to liquid at the dew point. When there is difference between inside and outside temperatures and when the relative humidity of the warm side is high enough, water will condense on the colder window.

Chances are the apartments this doesn't happen in (or more likely happens less) are ones with windows warmed by direct Sun. Could also be apartments with some other kind of dehumidifying going on inside.

cornflake · Dec 10, 2016

It's not the windows, or how much sun they get; it's the installation. I used to have near 100-year-old windows, in the northeast, which I presume were single pane, heh, and that didn't happen. I'm guessing they didn't insulate around the window frame.

I wonder if it always got that cold in the winter or if it's more recent. Maybe it's an unfamiliarity with cold, like how 2" pf snow in the south that people in Boston would barely notice, shuts down everything and causes giant traffic issues and wrecks because they never deal with it.

chompers · Dec 10, 2016

heza said:
They are single pane.

I went to the management office and they said it was just something that happens in some of the apartments. They assured me it wasn't the windows themselves, so I'm left to assume they weren't installed properly... or we're on the side of the apartment that gets the most wind/shade and that makes a difference. The maintenance guy came by and looked at them. He said he has the same problem with his windows and just doesn't know what to do about it. He doesn't see any problems with the outside or inside seals. *shrugs* I guess the windows are just too thin, being single pane and all.

He said he'll do some more research and see if he can figure something out. But he did say that it's a known issue and they have to repair the areas around the windows sometimes. They never hold residents accountable for that kind of damage. We don't have any belongings near the windows.

Interestingly, the windows themselves don't have condensation. It's the metallic parts on the sides... the sash? I've started putting folded up towels in the corners and right in the middle before bed to catch the water running down.

Hopefully, the coldest part of the winter won't last too long. Of course, now, given how poorly we seem to be sealed up... the electric bill in the summer is likely to be huge too, as we'll be losing the cool air, then.

Unfortunately, I think we're in for an especially cold winter. I'm pretty near Oklahoma (although it sounds like you might be in either central or northern OK, given your temps), so I don't how relative it could be, but it's not normally this cold yet. And February tends to the coldest, when we get a lot of ice on the roads, in addition to snow. And I think I saw something about an artic vortex or something?

Chris P · Dec 10, 2016

I got a look at the outside of my windows, and I can't see any obvious areas where they are not sealed. My condensation comes and goes and I can't see any correlation between sunny/cloudy/etc.

I'll let you know if I come up with any solution.

Tepelus · Dec 10, 2016

I work in a five year old hotel that's a part of a casino and the windows in some of the rooms condensate badly and also on the metal frames and sills. This usually happens when the weather changes from warm to cold in the fall and once the cold of winter sets in they stop. Don't know what causes it, probably bad installation. We just wipe them dry with towels until they don't condensate anymore.

MaeZe · Dec 10, 2016

Sigh... It's simple physics people, won't anyone think of the science?

Colder on one side of the window pane, water is in vapor form on the warmer side. When the vapor comes in contact with the colder window surface, the water condenses into liquid. No better installation of a single pane window is going to change the physics.

How a double pane window works: Air is a poor conductor of heat. The inside of the double pane maintains the same (or close to the) temperature as the room. The outer pane maintains the same temperature as the outside air. The heat loss is slowed across the air gap between the panes.*

*If there is condensation between the panes, that is a broken seal issue.

The way your window defroster works in your car uses the same principle. The little wires in your rear window or the warm air blowing on the windshield heat the glass. The warmer air with water vapor in it contacts a warmed window. Condensation doesn't occur. The windows don't fog.

IT'S JUST SIMPLE PHYSICS. NOTHING MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT.

[MaeZe the 'my apologies to all of you' frustrated scientist.]

jennontheisland · Dec 10, 2016

Yeah, what MaeZe said. And the reason it's condensing on the metal frames is because the metal conducts heat better and gets colder fast. The temp in the air that is exactly next to the frames is cold enough that it's hitting the dew point. This is either because the air on the other side of the frame is cold (i.e. 20F outside), or the wall immediately next to the window is poorly insulated (i.e. cheap manager just keeps adding caulk to crumpling walls), or both.

Relative humidity is relative to temperature. In cold weather, high humidity does not equal actually humid. I've been outside at -40 degrees and 90% humidity. Lemme tell ya, it's not "humid" by any definition. It chaps your cheeks and nose, nevermind your lips.

Adding the window film will help, but only if you put it on the wall surrounding the window, and make the air space between the film and the window a "cold" space. That way, no warm, humid air will pass over the metal. I've done it, and it looked like shit, but it was better than mouldy towels on the window sill and floor. Do it at the warmest time of day, dry the metal well with a cloth, then with a hair dryer. Get the air next to the window as dry as possible, then apply the tape and film. Use the hair dryer on the film to tighten it (diminishes the trashy look of plastic coated windows if the film is smooth and unobvious).

cornflake · Dec 10, 2016

Except at least some of us have lived with single-pane windows and not had any condensation appear. Until fairly recently I had old, single-pane windows, in a city which has winter. It's currently in the upper 20s out, not at all unusual. It's usually warmer inside. Never had condensation on the windows. Also, the inside glass of my current double-pane windows is cold as fuck, not remotely close to the temp of the room.

Hey, you folks in cold climates.... window condensation?

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