What the rudest "constructive criticism" you've ever gotten on your manuscript? Also, what's the point of some people going out of their way to be rude when they give feedback? I read a critique of someone's query letter and the person was being a pretentious jerk. Is it that people get so much high esteem in their abilities that they forget that nobody's perfect? Please share your stories.
Rudest critique you've ever received?
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I don't think so? Saying things like, "You have no idea how to do this do you?" is just belittling. Yeah, I have no idea how to do it, you're giving me a critique, I'm trying to be better don't put me down, tell me how to improve.
It's always a good idea to remember that the work is being critted, not the writer. Also, if you're talking about SYW, it's often suggested that people who might be hurt by a tough-love crit put the preference for a softer tone in their threads. If you really think a crit has overstepped the RYFW line, you could hit the report-post button - I've done that myself - but as Helix says, one person's rude is another person's cut-to-the-chase.
(Helix didn't say that exactly, but yanno...)
ETA: I'm not sure that a thread critiquing the tough crits will fly, though. People who give crits are usually being anything but jerks - they're being generous and (usually) helpful. The accepted response to that is "Thank you for your time"
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It wasn't constructive, but it bothered me. Don't know if it was rude or if I just had a chip on my shoulder. Probably both.
I put off bringing my sexual slavery scene to my critique group, it was a difficult chapter to write as it was. The book's not about sexual slavery, it's not erotica, none of that. But it is about what happens to the lowest members of the social rung. And sex trafficking is part of that life. So I touch on the subject in the book for a couple chapters.
Normally our critique group splits in two and on this day there weren't enough people for two groups. More than half the group were members that hadn't read much of my work at all. They reacted like a bunch of prudes. And, they reacted like I couldn't write. I can write. I've spent the last five years learning how and I'm good at it now.
Not helpful, not in the least. I am not writing 50 Shades fan fiction. Condescending, and no effort whatsoever to consider what I was trying to accomplish. They had not seen the places I had, so they didn't understand the setting. I'll always be learning how to write better, critique pointing out my flaws is welcome. But their critique wasn't about how to make the scene more credible, the critique was a total rejection that the scene was credible.
But I'd been there. I was basing the scene off of places I'd seen first hand. They had no idea such places existed.
Fortunately the one person familiar with my WIP and the one I've learned the most from rose above the insensitive, useless condescension. I was modeling the brothel after actual places I'd seen in Las Vegas and that wasn't working. I get that. I ended up changing the scene altogether.
But I resented the critique that night, and I've taken a break from the group. It's not that I don't have more to learn, of course I do. But I've been getting very useful critique every two weeks for almost five years. That night I felt like I'd graduated. I know what I'm doing now. I need to edit, the book's almost done. I'll need a beta reader next. Having people read a chapter who knew nothing about the book wasn't helpful.
Bottom line, if the setting doesn't work for you, say so. But you need not tell someone, no such place exists, when you haven't been all the places other people have been. Ask first, what are you basing the setting on?
Don't start off your critique when you are coming in, in the middle of a book, and you don't know anything about what that author is writing. Ask first, what are you trying to accomplish in this chapter?
Don't make assumptions based on something as oversimplified as the genre what should or shouldn't be in a book. Make sure first that the person isn't writing something in that genre that is not your traditional sparkly vampire fantasy. Some YA books are deeper than that.
I put off bringing my sexual slavery scene to my critique group, it was a difficult chapter to write as it was. The book's not about sexual slavery, it's not erotica, none of that. But it is about what happens to the lowest members of the social rung. And sex trafficking is part of that life. So I touch on the subject in the book for a couple chapters.
Normally our critique group splits in two and on this day there weren't enough people for two groups. More than half the group were members that hadn't read much of my work at all. They reacted like a bunch of prudes. And, they reacted like I couldn't write. I can write. I've spent the last five years learning how and I'm good at it now.
"That doesn't belong in YA"
"Have you read The Story of O? It's about blah blah blah, you should read it.
"50 Shades, you should read that."
"Have you read The Story of O? It's about blah blah blah, you should read it.
"50 Shades, you should read that."
Not helpful, not in the least. I am not writing 50 Shades fan fiction. Condescending, and no effort whatsoever to consider what I was trying to accomplish. They had not seen the places I had, so they didn't understand the setting. I'll always be learning how to write better, critique pointing out my flaws is welcome. But their critique wasn't about how to make the scene more credible, the critique was a total rejection that the scene was credible.
But I'd been there. I was basing the scene off of places I'd seen first hand. They had no idea such places existed.
Fortunately the one person familiar with my WIP and the one I've learned the most from rose above the insensitive, useless condescension. I was modeling the brothel after actual places I'd seen in Las Vegas and that wasn't working. I get that. I ended up changing the scene altogether.
But I resented the critique that night, and I've taken a break from the group. It's not that I don't have more to learn, of course I do. But I've been getting very useful critique every two weeks for almost five years. That night I felt like I'd graduated. I know what I'm doing now. I need to edit, the book's almost done. I'll need a beta reader next. Having people read a chapter who knew nothing about the book wasn't helpful.
Bottom line, if the setting doesn't work for you, say so. But you need not tell someone, no such place exists, when you haven't been all the places other people have been. Ask first, what are you basing the setting on?
Don't start off your critique when you are coming in, in the middle of a book, and you don't know anything about what that author is writing. Ask first, what are you trying to accomplish in this chapter?
Don't make assumptions based on something as oversimplified as the genre what should or shouldn't be in a book. Make sure first that the person isn't writing something in that genre that is not your traditional sparkly vampire fantasy. Some YA books are deeper than that.
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Fixed that for ya.
Well, going by all the YA chaff I've had to sort through to find the wheat, ....
But I do agree there are some very good books in the genre out there. I hope people will think mine is one of them.
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Coz I'm in a pedantic mood:
No more than any other category, IME. There's far more chaff than wheat in all books, not just YA.
YA's not a genre, it's a marketing category.
I'll stop now, coz it's turning into a derail.
Well, going by all the YA chaff I've had to sort through to find the wheat, ....
No more than any other category, IME. There's far more chaff than wheat in all books, not just YA.
MaeZe said:
YA's not a genre, it's a marketing category.
I'll stop now, coz it's turning into a derail.
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Not always. I picked a beta reader from Good Reads once. Seems the person was trolling for paid business in the free beta section. Dunno what made her think rudeness was the way to get my business. Her comment about previous customers was a put-off, as well. Apparently, none of the works sent in were any good. Mine, included. And she helpfully offered to edit it for a few thousand bucks.
If my work is that bad, no sense in throwing good money after it
Might as well write purely for my own pleasure and keep it free of cost.
Mine's YA sci-fi. I do understand the genre label.
As for the chaff in every genre, choir preaching there. But on the bright side, because I do love the bright side, I look at all that published chaff, and hot damn, my book is better than that.
As for the chaff in every genre, choir preaching there. But on the bright side, because I do love the bright side, I look at all that published chaff, and hot damn, my book is better than that.
What they said was really... stupid. It makes me remember a little pic I saw - http://elumish.tumblr.com/post/151228494559/glitchedpuppet-a-comic-about-critique
I had no idea that sex trafficking was alive and well in Las Vegas. I hope your book comes out soon and finds a good house - it seems like a really interesting topic.
I had no idea that sex trafficking was alive and well in Las Vegas. I hope your book comes out soon and finds a good house - it seems like a really interesting topic.
Thank you. In Las Vegas, sex for sale is legal. But sex trafficking is ubiquitous. When there is money to be made exploiting less powerful people, there is trafficking.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-vegas/experts-say-human-trafficking-may-be-rise-las-vegas
http://lasvegassun.com/news/2012/nov/01/sex-trafficking-children/
http://ag.nv.gov/Human_Trafficking/HT_Home/
@Maeze thank you for these resources. I'm disappointed that this stuff still stands.
@Cobalt Jade thanks! i agree that neutral tone is best. Nobody needs to know your sarcastic wit during a critique, save that for your own novel.
@Cobalt Jade thanks! i agree that neutral tone is best. Nobody needs to know your sarcastic wit during a critique, save that for your own novel.
Not rude, but the least helpful critique I ever had was this guy who corrected all my British English to American English. He didn't offer very much else in the way of critique either. When I went back to him to say "all this is correct in British English" he was very surprised. Turns out he didn't even know it was British English. He thought he was correcting my grammar and vocabulary.
MaeZe - your account illustrates why critiquers need to be matched with the work they're critiquing. I love the cartoon Lissandra posted. This is why I don't agree with people who say writers shouldn't try to explain their work - there are times when it's better not to, but there are also times when critiquers do need to understand what a writer's aiming at in order to be able to give a useful critique.
MaeZe - your account illustrates why critiquers need to be matched with the work they're critiquing. I love the cartoon Lissandra posted. This is why I don't agree with people who say writers shouldn't try to explain their work - there are times when it's better not to, but there are also times when critiquers do need to understand what a writer's aiming at in order to be able to give a useful critique.
Critique doesn't need to be harsh in order to be helpful but it does, I believe, need to be balanced. Being on the receiving end of a whole laundry list of negative remarks can be painful for anyone but if the critique is tempered with positive comments about what was effective and what worked, I think it's much easier to take.
If you see a critique at AW which you think oversteps the line, then please report the post. Don't start to argue with the poster, it's not usually helpful. And if you receive a critique which you don't like, here or anywhere else, remember that the most appropriate way to respond to any critique, good or bad, is, "Thank you for taking your time to give me this critique."
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I have probably stepped over the line into unhelpful a few times, both here and elsewhere.
The thing is, I always try to be helpful. I know I don't always get there. Sometimes a crit I give just isn't going to mesh well with the writer in question, but I see potential in the work so I try anyway; or I do it just to provide some perspective. Sometimes I've already crit a given piece (usually a query) 4-5 times saying the same thing every time and I'll go for blunt one last time, because that's sometimes more effective with some people.
Sometimes I'm just tired and rushed and I do a crit in the few minutes I get at night. It may not come off as well as I hoped, but hey, at least there's a data point for the writer.
Crits are subjective, yeah?
Likewise I've had a few I thought were needlessly harsh, though I care about those less than I care about the ones where the critter obviously put no effort in (less of an issue online where this is all free; more of an issue in writing classes with students of mixed dedication/ability), but even then, as I've become more experienced as a writer I've started to realize that even when someone's snarky it just means whatever I wrote didn't connect with them. That's fine. It happens. Maybe I can look at how or why that happened in the crit. Maybe I can't. There's no sense in taking it personally, though, and in my experience the good far outweighs the bad when it comes to crit. It's worth it, for both parties.
The thing is, I always try to be helpful. I know I don't always get there. Sometimes a crit I give just isn't going to mesh well with the writer in question, but I see potential in the work so I try anyway; or I do it just to provide some perspective. Sometimes I've already crit a given piece (usually a query) 4-5 times saying the same thing every time and I'll go for blunt one last time, because that's sometimes more effective with some people.
Sometimes I'm just tired and rushed and I do a crit in the few minutes I get at night. It may not come off as well as I hoped, but hey, at least there's a data point for the writer.
Crits are subjective, yeah?
Likewise I've had a few I thought were needlessly harsh, though I care about those less than I care about the ones where the critter obviously put no effort in (less of an issue online where this is all free; more of an issue in writing classes with students of mixed dedication/ability), but even then, as I've become more experienced as a writer I've started to realize that even when someone's snarky it just means whatever I wrote didn't connect with them. That's fine. It happens. Maybe I can look at how or why that happened in the crit. Maybe I can't. There's no sense in taking it personally, though, and in my experience the good far outweighs the bad when it comes to crit. It's worth it, for both parties.
I've got a pretty thick skin, but I agree, sometimes it's not a matter of the critique being blunt, but just plain rudeness. Luckily, I've never experienced that. The worst I've gotten was a critiquer being a bit condescending, but I don't think it was intentional. She had written up a thorough critique, which was very helpful. It had plenty of "negative" comments, which didn't bother me in the least. It was afterwards when I messaged her with further questions that she got condescending. But like I said, I don't think she realized she was being so.
More than likely, people receiving the critique from me probably think I'm rude, even though I'm just blunt.
More than likely, people receiving the critique from me probably think I'm rude, even though I'm just blunt.
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Worst critique I got was when I was still in the early learning stages of putting work out for others to read.
It started well "This paragraph is extraneous, you could probably lose it." But then they continued "Better yet, lose the whole story and try doing something other than writing."
That was more than 20 years ago, and it made me decide to prove the person wrong, like I've chosen to do with a large majority of my English teachers from school.
It started well "This paragraph is extraneous, you could probably lose it." But then they continued "Better yet, lose the whole story and try doing something other than writing."
That was more than 20 years ago, and it made me decide to prove the person wrong, like I've chosen to do with a large majority of my English teachers from school.
Ouch! (to receive the crit, I mean)
I am very matter of fact when I crit. I'm also more likely to tell the author everything I see that doesn't work for me. If I'm critting in SYW, I can separate out an overarching-problem crit from a sentence-level crit because I know that another version will be forthcoming and if the overarching problems are dealt with, I can tackle more specific problems. But when betaing, it's the one shot at telling the author what I see, so if I see clunky writing or a word that doesn't mean what the author thinks or an inability to punctuation dialogue (more common than you'd think), I note it. I don't do compliment sandwiches because so often they sound obvious and fake to me, but I also wouldn't make the kind of judgment that Parametric's not-me beta made above (at least not about the writing; I could see it as a compliment if you were writing a scene so purposefully violent that the reader felt the pain of it
). I don't see the point in making a vague judgment on an author's writing. It doesn't help them and it can turn them off from my crits. Also, my opinion may be quite different from another reader's. When I crit, I believe that the author will use those crits to improve the book to a marketable level, no matter where the book started. I have a lot of hope for my authors! But I can see my matter-of-fact style coupled with my willingness to point out everything as being received as too blunt or harsh or even rude.I will say that I always get beta reads back from others who tell me they were so harsh, and they seem really tame to me, so maybe others feel the same way about my crits, who knows?
I did get one back from an author friend, and luckily I read the in-doc comments backwards because one of the earliest notes was so snippy that the rest would have been met with dread (or perhaps skipped) if I hadn't been almost done with them. But that was the only one in the entire book that had that tone, so maybe she just was in a bad mood. And, note, I can't even remember specifically what she said, just that the tone shocked me.
The one that stayed with me is one of my first novels got a "This is a good skeleton of a novel," and to this day, I feel that was an unfair characterization. It did need a lot of work, but having written first drafts that actually were skeletons of novels, I know the difference, at least according to what I've always thought of as "a skeleton of a novel". But it was crushing to me as a new writer getting my first betas. Worse, it told me nothing. I don't know if the critter had a different definition of "skeleton of a novel" than I do and what it meant I should do. Certainly, 10 years ago, I wasn't experienced enough to be able to parse out what it meant. It wasn't really rude, just unhelpful, judgmental, and crushing to a newer author. Perhaps this one crit is why I'm so specific.
I've also gotten crits that were so nice ("I love everything about this book!") as to be unhelpful too, so there's a balance to be had.
I always try to keep in mind that crits, by their very nature, will be mostly negative.
There was a thread on Authonomy (when it still existed) where certain people would do a harsh critique. I think they called it "no holds barred". It was really mostly about them displaying their brilliant wit than anything else, although there was a certain amount of useful info. What that crit did for me, more than any specific information, was show me that I could take that kind of crap without wilting. And that was worth the price of admission.
There was a thread on Authonomy (when it still existed) where certain people would do a harsh critique. I think they called it "no holds barred". It was really mostly about them displaying their brilliant wit than anything else, although there was a certain amount of useful info. What that crit did for me, more than any specific information, was show me that I could take that kind of crap without wilting. And that was worth the price of admission.
I put a lot of thought into my crits. Time, too. And I think most everyone I've seen crit on this forum does the same. Unfortunately, it can be difficult to understand a person's intentions when you're reading their crits because you aren't seeing their face or hearing their voice. It's like texting. Without knowing the emotion or tone, SOMETIMES things can get misinterpreted or taken too harshly. Not always, but sometimes.
I've written something I thought sounded perfectly fine, only to look back at it a few hours later and realize it could be taken wrong. I really do rethink every word I write before I post it, striving to make every statement of a crit as honest as possible, without being cruel. I think most critters on AW are this way. I think most of us want each other to succeed. You won't do that if I stomp on your dreams, but you won't do that if I tell you you're awesome when you're not, either.
I've been on the receiving end of harsh crits so I get it, I really do. I guess I'm just saying, if you've received a harsh crit (one you thought was unusually so), it seems like a dialog in PM might be in order. Maybe not, I don't know. But if I've ever come across as deliberately rude, I'd like a chance to apologize and rephrase. But maybe that's just me?
I've written something I thought sounded perfectly fine, only to look back at it a few hours later and realize it could be taken wrong. I really do rethink every word I write before I post it, striving to make every statement of a crit as honest as possible, without being cruel. I think most critters on AW are this way. I think most of us want each other to succeed. You won't do that if I stomp on your dreams, but you won't do that if I tell you you're awesome when you're not, either.
I've been on the receiving end of harsh crits so I get it, I really do. I guess I'm just saying, if you've received a harsh crit (one you thought was unusually so), it seems like a dialog in PM might be in order. Maybe not, I don't know. But if I've ever come across as deliberately rude, I'd like a chance to apologize and rephrase. But maybe that's just me?