Improvised Victorian Science - Arsenic detection

Maythe

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
668
Reaction score
88
Location
Derbyshire, UK.
I'm looking for help with a Victorian detective.

I need to know where a victorian scientist looking to improvise a quick experiment might find zinc powder and either nitric or sulphuric acid.

By the period of my story the detection of arsenic can be done with substantial accuracy in a lab using the marsh test. However my scientist is not in her lab and she suspects murder where the doctor is giving another cause of death. If she can confirm the presence of arsenic using a 'quick 'n' dirty' method she can do a more accurate analysis at a later date. But she's lacking her basic supplies. No doubt she could get these substances from a pharmacist but I'm wondering if they might be found in a sizeable household? For example as cleaning products or paint base? I know zinc has been used to make white paint and cosmetics. Any ideas?
 

King Neptune

Banned
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
4,253
Reaction score
372
Location
The Oceans
Solid zinc might be in any number of things. It is commonly used in making small cast metal items. Turning it into powder would be tedious but possible. Nitric acid is sometimes used for cleaning some things, but I can't think of what. Both acids were used as electrolytes in plating, etc., but not many people do that at home.
 

Maythe

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
668
Reaction score
88
Location
Derbyshire, UK.
I think making someone in the house a hobbyist electroplater might be a bit contrived!

It has occurred to me that if the poisoning had been chronic before it was fatal there would be symptoms (confusion, gastric problems, meese's lines) so maybe the initial conclusion that the victim's been poisoned could come from those rather than an experiment. An experiment would be fun to write though...
 

neongrey

petting every cat
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 20, 2016
Messages
66
Reaction score
12
Would you be able to combine those two thoughts? The symptoms make her suspicious, so she takes some sort of sample and then goes to get what she needs for the experiment?
 

Mark HJ

Cat whisperer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 5, 2013
Messages
188
Reaction score
17
Location
Cornwall, UK
Website
markhuntleyjames.wordpress.com
I'm not an expert on Victorian households, but the only strong mineral acid I can think of that might be routinely used would be hydrochloric - probably referred to commonly as muriatic acid or spirits of salt in that period, and used to remove 'iron mould' aka rust stains from fabric, although again it would be as well to check the dates make sense as I'm coming at this from a background in chemistry not Victorian history.

For zinc, there would presumably be plenty of hot-dip galvanised iron/steel hanging around, such as an old 'tin' bath, so some work with a file might give you zinc granules.

Sulphuric acid (vitriol/oil of vitriol) might be available in your household if they are using lead-acid batteries for something - these were available in later part of the nineteenth century. If my quick skim-read of the Marsh test chemistry is right, then this would probably get you there, since it implies that sulphuric will do as well as nitric. However, if you really need the nitric acid, your scientist has the time and can scrounge up some suitable glassware, stewing saltpeter (potassium nitrate) with concentrated sulphuric acid will produce a dirty brown nitric acid that can be distilled off (I know this works - I did it a number of years ago at school, but I can't remember the name of the piece of glassware used - a glass flask with a top-stopper and a side arm which acts as a basic condenser but in an age before health and safety, and with a killer to catch, you could probably stew the mix in an open ceramic bowl and hold a jar of cold water above to condense the nitric acid, whilst trying not to choke on the fumes...). It might even be possible to just use the sulphuric/nitrate mix as is.
 

Maythe

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
668
Reaction score
88
Location
Derbyshire, UK.
That could stretch out the 'is it murder?' drama which could be good or bad...hmm. Or the suspicions could cause her to send the sample to a doctor friend leading to a timely telegram.
 

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,158
Location
The right earlobe of North America
One of the major poisons available in Victorian times was potassium ferrocyanide, better known as Prussic acid. Almost instantly fatal, as opposed to arsenic compounds, which take some time.

caw
 

Maythe

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
668
Reaction score
88
Location
Derbyshire, UK.
Thanks Mark! That's useful info. I'm coming to the conclusion my experiment couldn't be done discreetly in a victorian country mansion, which is a shame. Either I need to get her an ally in situ whose house she can use, or I need to change my thinking somewhat.

As Blacbird suggests (thanks Blacbird!) cyanide is a possibility, though I'm not sure how she'd detect its use. Hey Blacbird, is it prussic acid that smells of almonds? I wonder if you could disguise it in plum brandy...
 

Bolero

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
1,080
Reaction score
106
Location
UK
Hydrogen cyanide smells of bitter almonds - but not everyone can smell it.
Don't know about prussic acid.
 

Mark HJ

Cat whisperer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 5, 2013
Messages
188
Reaction score
17
Location
Cornwall, UK
Website
markhuntleyjames.wordpress.com
One of the major poisons available in Victorian times was potassium ferrocyanide, better known as Prussic acid. Almost instantly fatal, as opposed to arsenic compounds, which take some time.

caw

Prussic acid is hydrogen cyanide. Potassium ferrocyanide is non-toxic and one of its modern applications is as an anti-caking agent in cooking salt. There is the similarly-named potassium ferricyanide which is also non-toxic but does produce hydrogen cyanide in strong acids, but I don't know if the pH in the stomach is low enough to drive that reaction. When ferricyanide reacts with the right sorts of iron compounds it produces a strong blue colour which is sometimes known as Prussian Blue.

Potassium cyanide is toxic in small doses but so far as I know requires stomach acid to generate hydrogen cyanide, which then kills the victim.

If you're going to use cyanide poisoning, you ought to check the symptoms. As I understand it, the attraction of arsenic was that it could so easily be mistaken for natural causes but it lurks in the back of my head that cyanide is reasonably obvious.


Update: This has been nagging at me and, as it turns out, there is a google article on cyanide poisoning which does suggest the possibility of distinctive skin colour changes.
 
Last edited:

King Neptune

Banned
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
4,253
Reaction score
372
Location
The Oceans
Last edited:

CWatts

down the rabbit hole of research...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 4, 2013
Messages
1,751
Reaction score
1,221
Location
Virginia, USA
Cyanide is readily available in vegetable sources: apple seeds, cherry pits and leaves, peach stones and leaves. Without bothering to purify it it doesn't take huge amount to kill; I believe that a cup of apple seeds can be lethal.

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/cyanide_poisoning/article_em.htm
A cherry red skin color that changes to dark may be present as the result of increased venous hemoglobin saturation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide_poisoning

Not to derail, but the Victorians were swimming in arsenic as it was used for popular green dyes. Sometimes the victim's skin, eye whites or nail beds also turned green.

https://www.google.com/amp/pictoria...rori-1738374597/amp?client=ms-android-verizon

ETA: Link has graphic medical illustrations that include nudity.
 
Last edited:

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,158
Location
The right earlobe of North America
Prussic acid is hydrogen cyanide. Potassium ferrocyanide is non-toxic and one of its modern applications is as an anti-caking agent in cooking salt. There is the similarly-named potassium ferricyanide which is also non-toxic but does produce hydrogen cyanide in strong acids, but I don't know if the pH in the stomach is low enough to drive that reaction. When ferricyanide reacts with the right sorts of iron compounds it produces a strong blue colour which is sometimes known as Prussian Blue.

Yeah, you right. I was trying to dredge up my last chemistry course knowledge, which (thankfully) has been largely repressed. I should simply have said cyanide.

As another option, in addition to the organic sources of cyanide cited before, peach leaves are nasty. Children can be, and may have been, fatally poisoned by brewing play tea out of peach leaves. And there are quite a lot of other organic sources of deadly poisons, notably foxglove (wolfbane), hemlock (the swamp plant, not the tall North American coniferous tree), and a number of mushrooms in the genera Amanita, Cortinarius and Galerina.

caw
 

Orianna2000

Freelance Writer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 15, 2011
Messages
3,434
Reaction score
234
Location
USA
Not an expert in poison or chemistry, but I recall a Trixie Belden novel (awesome children's mystery stories written in the 1940s and onward) where the MC's brother was accidentally poisoned by his girlfriend who made him a salad with chopped apples in it, several days in a row, without realizing you need to remove the apple seeds. He lived, but it was a close call.
 

King Neptune

Banned
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
4,253
Reaction score
372
Location
The Oceans
Not an expert in poison or chemistry, but I recall a Trixie Belden novel (awesome children's mystery stories written in the 1940s and onward) where the MC's brother was accidentally poisoned by his girlfriend who made him a salad with chopped apples in it, several days in a row, without realizing you need to remove the apple seeds. He lived, but it was a close call.

I believe it was a Sharon McCrumb novel in which the murder weapon was a peach pie made with peach almonds included and a garnish of peach leaves (kind of tough but plenty of cyanide). I had a bit of trouble with that, because it would taste heavily of bitter almond, to the point where the peach flavor wouldn't cover it.

It would take a lot of appleseeds to even sicken someone. I'd get sick of pulling the hulls out of my teeth before I got sick.
 

Bolero

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
1,080
Reaction score
106
Location
UK
Not an expert in poison or chemistry, but I recall a Trixie Belden novel (awesome children's mystery stories written in the 1940s and onward) where the MC's brother was accidentally poisoned by his girlfriend who made him a salad with chopped apples in it, several days in a row, without realizing you need to remove the apple seeds. He lived, but it was a close call.

Only if you chop up the seeds. If the seeds are whole, they pass straight through you. On the whole, when chopping apples, unless you put them through a mincer, then they often "ping" to one side of the knife and don't get cut.
 

Twick

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
3,291
Reaction score
715
Location
Canada
I should point out as a child I used to eat apple seeds with no obvious ill effect. So it would take a lot of them.

From a chemistry standpoint, the Marsh test was so new and so specific that I doubt anyone could create one on the fly from common household odds and ends. You might prove something was poisonous by feeding it to an animal, perhaps.
 
Last edited:

King Neptune

Banned
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
4,253
Reaction score
372
Location
The Oceans
I should point out as a child I used to eat apple seeds with no obvious ill effect. So it would take a lot of them.

Yes it would take lots of appleseeds to kill. One thing I read mentioned a cup of hulled seeds would do it. The article I linked doesn't suggest a quantity with precision, but it has a nice chart about what seeds to avoid. Careful with the greengages and apricots.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/oct/11/cyanide-in-fruit-seeds-how-dangerous-is-an-apple
 

Mark HJ

Cat whisperer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 5, 2013
Messages
188
Reaction score
17
Location
Cornwall, UK
Website
markhuntleyjames.wordpress.com
I should point out as a child I used to eat apple seeds with no obvious ill effect. So it would take a lot of them.

Definitely! Cyanide content would be variable and how well crushed/ground the seeds were would also impact - the body metabolises cyanide, so you have to deliver enough to kill before it is rendered harmless. If apple seeds carried significant levels of cyanide, there would be health warnings on the packaging and everyone would teach their kids the safe way to eat apples. If I remember correctly, cassava contains dangerous levels of cyanide and in those parts of the world where it is part of the staple diet, proper cooking is part of the culture.