In regards to "rules" on writing and "The Lottery"

Julio Weigend · Oct 10, 2016

I keep hearing and reading articles from many people who claim to have advice on how to "write well." I've read that people prefer the active voice over the passive voice, the immediate past or present vs. the past or present perfect, etc. I've been told to keep sentences short and to-the-point among other things.

As of now, I am beginning to question the worth of pretty much every article, guide, or class that's ever claimed to teach people how to write fiction well. You only need to look at Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery" to see what I mean. The story is descriptive, to be sure, but it's also full of passive voice and severely underdeveloped characters, which didn't stop it from becoming a much-discussed and extremely popular piece of fiction.

Shirley Jackson said that she wrote the story very quickly in a span of a couple of hours, and personally, I think it shows. I find the story's prose to be very sluggish, but I cannot say that it isn't a well-told tale that gets its point across in an efficient manner. Do the two go hand-in-hand? Must they go hand-in-hand?

You can teach people how to write grammatically (although Cormac McCarthy and others have promptly ignored mainstream grammatical rules and enjoyed great success regardless). You can teach people to write active sentences and deliberately craft a story to be "in the moment." You can teach them to avoid exposition, how to build suspense. You can teach them how to write salable stories and easily digestible fiction that's easy to read.

What's impossible to do, in my opinion, is teach people how to actually write a good tale. Case in point, Jackson's story does away with most, if not all of the above.

In your opinion, what is the best and worst piece of writing advice you've ever been given, and what made you think that the advice was good or bad? I'm interested to hear your opinions.

ironmikezero · Oct 10, 2016

It was the best of advice; it was the worst of advice . . . Follow the rules!

(apologies to Mr. Dickens)

Seriously, you could work up a tempest in a teapot over the rules and adherence thereto.

The point is that it's all relative to the individual writer. Do as your muse dictates, and let the red slashes fall where they may--even those are but an editor's opinion.

Curlz · Oct 10, 2016

Best piece of advice: "Write, write, write!" - because practice makes perfect

Worst piece of advice: "Write, write, write!" - because it doesn't tell you anything about what to write or how to do it.
As you can see, same advice can mean different things. What does it mean to "write, write, write", for example? The answer is the way to success. Does it mean to type whatever comes to mind and nothing else? Or is there more to it? Is there more to "ignoring grammar" (like McCarthy)? Good writing is a very complex activity. Level 1 includes knowing where to put commas. Level 1001 includes knowing when to omit commas. "You need well developed characters" also means knowing how a well-developed character helps create a good story, and therefore knowing when you need one, and when you don't. Same with any other advice. "Write, write, write" at level 1 means just that - write whatever comes to mind. Then, you can take it to Level 2, where you can learn when to erase, erase, erase. Then, there's Level 3, when you learn how to edit, edit, edit. And there are a lot of levels after that. There are more ways to write a "good story" than there are stars in the galaxy. You absolutely don't have to follow any rules, if you are skillful enough to do without them

jjdebenedictis · Oct 10, 2016

Best advice:
The rules are not rules. They are exercises to train you out of bad habits that new writers often fall into. Once you can write well within the "rules", you will have acquired the expertise to break the rules judiciously to good effect.

Any writer you see breaking the rules while still writing a great book could undoubtedly write just as good a story within the rules, because they've already mastered writing according to those rules. They've levelled up. If you haven't yet, then stick to the rules until you've mastered the lesson embedded in each.

The worst writing advice:
Anything from anyone who says, "THIS is how it must be done." Every single human is wired differently and must fumble their way to the most effective strategy for themself. It's helpful to try out other people's techniques, to help you learn what your own best practices should be, but if the other person implies their way is the one, lone, correct way to do it, then they're simply wrong.

DancingMaenid · Oct 10, 2016

Even the strongest, most obvious rules often have exceptions. Ultimately, it comes down to what works and what doesn't which can be subjective.

Writing advice can be helpful, but it's not something that can be followed like a recipe.

As for "The Lottery," not all stories resonate with everyone. It didn't make as strong of an impression on me as it obviously does a lot of people. But I would say that Jackson's choice not to develop any of the characters too deeply works for the story. It's a snapshot, and the story itself is more about the idea and building up the suspense to the conclusion. The story is about ordinary people being willing to do something horrible because it's tradition, and the ordinariness of the characters helps drive that theme home. That doesn't mean that everyone is going to enjoy the story or that it's going to work for everyone, and that's okay.

Mrs-Q · Oct 10, 2016

I just ran The Lottery through Word's grammar checker. Only 4% of the sentences are passive voice. For context, I've seen as high as 20% in first drafts by beginning writers. I don't think it's a direct measure of bad writing, but bad writing sure seems to have a lot of it. I think passive voice got a bad wrap from Strunk and White. Some people don't know what it's for and they think it sounds fancy, so they use it everywhere to fancify their writing. It's also rampant in business writing, where first person is looked down on.

Anyway, I disagree writing can't be taught. For one thing, we've probably all had 10 years of literature-heavy education minimum just to be able to write something on this message board. None of us are naive talents. Some part of storytelling might be innate, but the formats we tell stories in require years of education and enculturation to both create and interpret.

I concede some people have trouble grasping the musicality of language and the basics of what a story arc is. But that doesn't mean storytelling's an innate skill, it means it's a difficult skill. Some people grasp difficult skills right away. A smaller subset of the population learns over time. Some will never get it. But I think everyone who writes did learn it, and probably from a number of teachers.

DarienW · Oct 10, 2016

Mrs-Q said:
I just ran The Lottery through Word's grammar checker. Only 4% of the sentences are passive voice. For context, I've seen as high as 20% in first drafts by beginning writers.

Just curious, Mrs. Q . . . I didn't know word could find such a thing. Is my version too old? Would be an interesting number to pull up!

I think the biggest challenge is getting people's attention quick. It's affecting most things, but even a lot of advice on here is, hook, hook, hook! And I agree too!

I had to learn the hard way that just writing well isn't enough. You need a compelling story out the gate. I do often wonder how much the hype and the book blurb influence readers patience with beginnings.

For myself, if I pick a book, I read it. I've read so many that start with back-story and I scratch my head. It has to be really bad for me to stop, which I've done too.
Either I didn't care, of it was so ridiculous, or boring.

blacbird · Oct 10, 2016

What made Shirley Jackson's story so memorable was the simple matter of the story idea. It's damn hard to come up with a story idea as original and emotionally compelling as that one was. The writing craft? Simple, serviceable, and adequate for its time.

Much the same, with more emphasis, maybe, could be said about the entire canon of H.P. Lovecraft. In terms of craft and style, he was awful, frankly. He couldn't write dialogue to save his immortal soul. But he produced ideas, compelling ones, and that's what drives his popularity with readership to this day.

Now, go find a compelling idea, and write the hell out of it (or into it, depending on your preferred genre), and stop worrying about "rules" that actually aren't there, or don't apply to what you write, even if somebody has expressed them somewhere.

caw

Old Hack · Oct 10, 2016

Julio Weigend said:
I keep hearing and reading articles from many people who claim to have advice on how to "write well." I've read that people prefer the active voice over the passive voice, the immediate past or present vs. the past or present perfect, etc. I've been told to keep sentences short and to-the-point among other things.

As of now, I am beginning to question the worth of pretty much every article, guide, or class that's ever claimed to teach people how to write fiction well.

Some writers follow all the rules and never get published. Some writers break all the rules and end up being best sellers. The point is that those rules can help, but you need to have talent, something which sets you apart from all the rest, and a really good story to tell if you want to do well.

You only need to look at Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery" to see what I mean.

If I remember rightly that story was written in 1948. That's nearly seventy years ago. That people are still talking about it now shows that something about it was very good; but as writers we should be more concerned about what's doing well now.

You can teach people how to write grammatically (although Cormac McCarthy and others have promptly ignored mainstream grammatical rules and enjoyed great success regardless). You can teach people to write active sentences and deliberately craft a story to be "in the moment." You can teach them to avoid exposition, how to build suspense. You can teach them how to write salable stories and easily digestible fiction that's easy to read.

What's impossible to do, in my opinion, is teach people how to actually write a good tale. Case in point, Jackson's story does away with most, if not all of the above.

My opinion--as someone with an MA in writing, a few years of editing and speaking at writers' conferences, and with some experience of teaching writing--is that you can't teach just anyone to write. You can help some writers move on more quickly, and help them see how to improve what they're doing. And it's not down to talent, it's down to how well they listen and apply what they've heard, and how keen they are to improve. Writers who turn up and then argue with every point you raise are not going to learn.

Mrs-Q said:
I just ran The Lottery through Word's grammar checker.

Grammar checkers can be helpful for some works but for fiction? Nightmare time. I ignore them.

Roxxsmom · Oct 10, 2016

DarienW said:
Just curious, Mrs. Q . . . I didn't know word could find such a thing. Is my version too old? Would be an interesting number to pull up!

I've got an older version of word, and what grammar checker in mine flags as "passive voice" is actually any sentence with a to be verb in it. Not all uses of was, is etc. are passive voice!

I agree with Old Hack that grammar checker is of limited use at best, especially with fiction writing.

DancingMaenid · Oct 11, 2016

Old Hack said:
If I remember rightly that story was written in 1948. That's nearly seventy years ago. That people are still talking about it now shows that something about it was very good; but as writers we should be more concerned about what's doing well now.

This is a good point! Standards and trends evolve, and some stories are classics partly because of what they've contributed and how they influenced the genre.

Edgar Allen Poe is regarded as very influential for horror and detective fiction, and lot of his stories are iconic and have inspired film adaptations. But that doesn't mean modern writers should copy his style. His style is a product of his time.

It's like fashion--we can look back and think that some clothing trends were just plain dorky, that some looks are classics that still look great today, and that some were great back then but are no longer timely.

Myrealana · Oct 11, 2016

These threads pop up regularly like dandelions in the summer.

The "rules" are guidelines, that help writers who may not have yet found their own voice and style.

Passive voice is rarely effective. Sometimes, you need it.
Proper grammar and punctuation can ensure a certain level of readability. Sometimes you have a good reason to break grammar rules.
Some books and stories follow a perfectly mapped plot template. Some break away with fabulous results.

The rules and templates were never intended to be shackles. But if you intend to take the road less traveled, you'd better do it damn well.

blacbird · Oct 11, 2016

Roxxsmom said:
I agree with Old Hack that grammar checker is of limited use at best, especially with fiction writing.

The grammar checker does catch more than a few useful things, in my experience. But it helps a hell of a lot if YOU, dear writer, know grammar well.

One of the major things it flags, and very well, are incorrect homonyms, produced either accidentally or through ignorance. Stuff like "there" for "their" or "it's" for "its". Your spell-checker won't get those. I'd recommend leaving the grammar checker on, if for this reason alone. Just learn what it does and does not do properly, relative to your own writing. And for God's sake, never use it as some kind of independent judge of the quality of any writing.

caw

Layla Nahar · Oct 11, 2016

Best advice: "just focus on telling a good story"

Worst advice: Can't say I've ever had any. All my struggles with telling stories come from me. Or maybe, I've been given all kinds of inappropriate advice, but I've just said 'thank you' and paid it little attention. I really can't think of anything a person has said that I've wanted to try, tried and found counterproductive.

KTC · Oct 19, 2016

The best piece of advice: Put your head down and avoid the road signs. You'll get there. Or you won't.

James D. Macdonald · Nov 9, 2016

There's only one real rule in writing: If it works, it's right.

Beyond that there are a couple of guideposts: Neither bore nor confuse your reader.

And a word of advice: If you don't finish your book/story/essay/play/poem you'll never find a reader.

In regards to "rules" on writing and "The Lottery"

Julio Weigend

ironmikezero

practical experience, FTW

Curlz

cutsie-pie

jjdebenedictis

is watching you via her avatar

DancingMaenid

New kid...seven years ago!

Mrs-Q

DarienW

blacbird

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

DancingMaenid

New kid...seven years ago!

Myrealana

I aim to misbehave

blacbird

Layla Nahar

Seashell Seller

KTC

Stand in the Place Where You Live

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle