How did people in 1913 London address each other?

D.C. McCormick

A fool in a swimming pool
Kind Benefactor
Registered
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
48
Reaction score
4
Would people of age (50s, 60s) address their juniors with a "you" or "You"? Even if they were friends? Was it ever acceptable for younger people (20s) to address their seniors with a "you" instead of a "You"?
 
Last edited:

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,171
Reaction score
15,732
Location
Australia.
Would people of age (50s, 60s) address their juniors with a "you" or "You"? Even if they were friends? Was it ever acceptable for younger people (20s) to address their seniors with a "you" instead of a "You"?

You're talking about a written address? As in - how would they address them in writing? You should be able to find that through googling historical letters with relevant dates and geography, I think.

This might be the sort of site to look for (I googled Letters 1913. You could be a lot more specific)
 
Last edited:

D.C. McCormick

A fool in a swimming pool
Kind Benefactor
Registered
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
48
Reaction score
4
You're talking about a written address? As in - how would they address them in writing? You should be able to find that through googling historical letters with relevant dates and geography, I think.

Ah, sorry, didn't make that clear. I meant speaking.

- - - Updated - - -

Can you give us some example sentences? It's a bit hard to see what distinction you are trying to draw, or what the alternatives would be.

No specific examples, am just wondering how people addressed their elders then, and vice-versa.
 

mirandashell

Banned
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
16,197
Reaction score
1,889
Location
England
Not sure how you differentiate a capital Y on 'you' when speaking.

Like most things in England, it would come down to class, largely. And it would be titles and names. I think we need an example of what you mean.
 

King Neptune

Banned
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
4,253
Reaction score
372
Location
The Oceans
As today, it would depend on who was addressing whom. A crude young man then would have addressed an older man crrudely, while a polite young man would have addressed the elder politely. But it would have been a matter of class and the circumstances. There is no single answer.
 

benbenberi

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
2,793
Reaction score
833
Location
Connecticut
I'm not sure I understand what is the distinction you're trying to make between "you" and "You" -- in written English the only difference between them is that the word is capitalized in the usual places (mostly at the beginning of a sentence) and in spoken English there's no difference between them at all. In some foreign languages I know there's a distinction made between familiar and formal forms of "you", but that doesn't exist at all in modern English. One would indicate degrees of formality or intimacy through the use of titles, formal or casual diction, etc. Use of the given name is a key sign of either intimacy or power (superiors could first-name subordinates, never vice versa).
 
Last edited:

mrsmig

Write. Write. Writey Write Write.
Staff member
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 4, 2012
Messages
9,843
Reaction score
7,068
Location
Virginia
Are you talking about something like "Hey, you!" or "You, there!" Because that's the only way I can make sense of your question.
 

Siri Kirpal

Swan in Process
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
8,943
Reaction score
3,151
Location
In God I dwell, especially in Eugene OR
Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

What Benbenberi said. English doesn't distinguish between formal and informal modes of address. And hasn't for several hundred years.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

mirandashell

Banned
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
16,197
Reaction score
1,889
Location
England
I wish the OP would come back and tell us. The suspense is killing me. And I'm not kidding. I want to know what he meant.
 

D.C. McCormick

A fool in a swimming pool
Kind Benefactor
Registered
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
48
Reaction score
4
Work was hectic this week - didn't get around to the forum much!

So sorry about the initial confusion, I just realized there is actually no written distinction in English that I was getting at.
I'm trying to translate a book from English to my native language, Serbian.

The problem I have is that here we use the formal You (Vi; and we also capitalize it), when talking to an elder, teacher, or anyone we respect.
We use the informal you (ti; not capitalized), when talking to our peers, friends, etc.

I was wondering how people talked to each other back then: I was always under the impression that people never addressed anyone outside their families with the informal you (ti).

Does my question make any sense now? ;)
 
Last edited:

mirandashell

Banned
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
16,197
Reaction score
1,889
Location
England
There is no difference in English for the word 'you'. It's more complicated than that.

For people with titles, you would use the form of address applicable: Your Majesty, Your Honour, M'lud, Your Grace, etc etc. For anyone else, it's just 'you'. So it all depends on who your character is talking to.
 

AW Admin

Administrator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
18,772
Reaction score
6,284
Makes sense, but no, the answer is that there are no formal and informal forms of "you" in English.

That's not strictly accurate; there are forms, but they are rarely used.

The language retains Thee and Thou (and Thine), used primarily in a religious context (i.e. prayers), and by Quakers.

Thee and Thou stopped being used in ordinary English with the rise of Early Modern English in the 15th century.

You used to be the formal "courteous" second person pronoun; thou was the intimate (with thee in the objective case).

The full suite was Ye, You, Yours and Thou, Thee, thy, (singular possessive/genitive) and thine (plural possessive / genitive).

See Ye[SUP]2[/SUP] in the AHD.

- - - Updated - - -

Would people of age (50s, 60s) address their juniors with a "you" or "You"? Even if they were friends? Was it ever acceptable for younger people (20s) to address their seniors with a "you" instead of a "You"?

You was generally used all the time, except by Quakers or in a religious context (i.e. prayers).
 

L.C. Blackwell

Keeper of Fort Blanket
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
2,373
Reaction score
521
Location
The Coffee Shop
Work was hectic this week - didn't get around to the forum much!

So sorry about the initial confusion, I just realized there is actually no written distinction in English that I was getting at.
I'm trying to translate a book from English to my native language, Serbian.

The problem I have is that here we use the formal You (Vi; and we also capitalize it), when talking to an elder, teacher, or anyone we respect.
We use the informal you (ti; not capitalized), when talking to our peers, friends, etc.

I was wondering how people talked to each other back then: I was always under the impression that people never addressed anyone outside their families with the informal you (ti).

Does my question make any sense now? ;)

I just found your post now, and I sort of thought that might be what you were trying to ask. :) English is a bit of a stinker that way, because the clues are more contextual than linguistic. In much older English (think Shakespeare's time and before), there was a differentiation: you vs. thou, but that was well-lost by the 18th century if not a good bit earlier.

By the time we get to 1913, there is absolutely no linguistic you/you distinction for English, in the sense that other Latin-based languages such as French or Spanish retain one. What happens is more subtle. For instance, a person in London at that period is very aware of his class. If he's a chimney sweep speaking to a Duke, he'll use address him as "Yer Grace," and even if his Cockney English is rather mangled, compared to standard English, he'll present himself in the most polished way he knows to use, perhaps bowing and dusting his hat. On the other hand, if he's an anarchist chimney sweep, he may turn to crudely abusive street language, "Yer Fanciness," etc.

A young person of middle or upper classes wishing to behave respectfully to a parent or a stranger would use standard English in a restrained way; would not use slang or profane words, would be attentive to the other person's comfort; and especially would take care not to ask intrusive questions or presume upon the other's goodwill. But: those are all behavioral and contextual cues.

Essentially, you are going to run into a translation problem, because you're asking English to do something in Serbian that English doesn't do. In this case, I suggest, because it would seem very strange to your Serbian readers if the chimney sweep addressed the Duke as ti, that you try to assign distinctions based upon class and the older you/thou forms. That is: a person who is older/of higher position and/or significantly more wealthy is assigned all "you" forms, whereas someone who is younger/inferior/equal is assigned "thou" forms. And then include a note for your readers stating that this is a distinction which, while demonstrated culturally in other ways, does not exist in written or spoken English either today or in the early-20th century.

Does that help? :)
 

benbenberi

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
2,793
Reaction score
833
Location
Connecticut
What they've said. "You" in English is both formal and informal, and the same word "you" is both singular and plural. Context differentiates, not grammar.

Formality in English is indicated not by pronouns or specifically"formal" grammar, but contextually. In formal speech people are typically addressed by their titles, not their given names. "Mr. Smith" is always a more formal mode of address than "Bob." In formal speech and writing people may use more elaborate/"correct" grammar & phrasing, not the casual, colloquial, slangy style they would use among friends.

To translate back from English to Serbian, you will need to decode the social clues of the English text to determine which form you need. The pronoun in English will not give you that.
 
Last edited:

Curlz

cutsie-pie
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Messages
2,213
Reaction score
382
Location
here
I'm trying to translate a book from English to my native language, Serbian.

The problem I have is that here we use the formal You (Vi; and we also capitalize it), when talking to an elder, teacher, or anyone we respect.
In translation you have to be creative and think what makes sense in your language. So, use your own judgement when picking which "you" is which. (Yes, when talking to an elder, teacher, or anyone we respect it will make sense to translate with the "formal You" in your language).
 

benbenberi

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
2,793
Reaction score
833
Location
Connecticut
The language retains Thee and Thou (and Thine), used primarily in a religious context (i.e. prayers), and by Quakers.

Thee and Thou stopped being used in ordinary English with the rise of Early Modern English in the 15th century.

You used to be the formal "courteous" second person pronoun; thou was the intimate (with thee in the objective case).

It seems that for many English-speakers today, since they don't know the grammar history and encounter "Thou/Thee/Thine" almost exclusively in religious contexts referring to God, "Thou/Thee/Thine" are now considered the highest degree of formality -- because you wouldn't speak to God in a disrespectful, casual way, but reserve these special pronouns just for the purpose!
 

mirandashell

Banned
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
16,197
Reaction score
1,889
Location
England
That's not strictly accurate; there are forms, but they are rarely used.

Sorry, I was talking modern day English. Thee and thou are mainly only used in the Yorkshire dialect these days.

ETA: And in a religious context, as you said.
 
Last edited:

Siri Kirpal

Swan in Process
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
8,943
Reaction score
3,151
Location
In God I dwell, especially in Eugene OR
Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Thee and Thou weren't in use in English by 1913. If a person had no formal title, but was being addressed formally, they might be called "Sir" or "Madam" (English)/"Ma'am" (American). Also, in that era, you indicated formality by calling someone by their last name.

Case in point: In the very early 1950s, a lady by the name of Dorothy Spring nursed my grandfather while he had cancer. After his death, when my grandmother asked Mrs. Spring how she could repay her, the lady said, "Please call me Dorothy."

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal