plot question involving self publishing - realistic (for plot, not me!)

bombergirl69 · Aug 5, 2016

So I know almost nothing about self publishing but I need a character, who is an author--has an agent, has published several successful works--to have on the sly written a very controversial memoir under another name. In my story, this charactor has died, but a copy of this memoir is found (people knew the person was working on a MS but it had not been found.) However, what's found is the self published version. It is not known how many copies were run (how many copies might be out there.) Sort of like if a fam member of someone, not quite Stephen King but a successful author, found a memoir of SK's,realized it was sensation and wanted to table it. But SK's agent (who is the exec of his literary trust) wants that book.

What would the character's actual agent reaction be? In my story, they would like to publish the story themselves. The agent is the executor of the literary trust the character established before dying and wants the story. The main character, who finds the book, realizes how sensitive it is and does not want the agent to have it. The agent reminds the MC that there are other copies out there...somewhere.

Could an agent/exec publish a book that' already been self published by the author?
Would a call to the printing company garner information on how many copies were run?
I was guessing the smallest number of copies would be somewhere around 25? Is that realistic?

My novel is NOT about publishing and printing but I would like this to be reasonable! thanks for any information on this!

Captcha · Aug 5, 2016

A lot (most? I think so) of self-publishing these days is in e-format.

So it's not that hard to figure out how many copies have sold (there'd be statements from the various retailers) but it would be really, really hard to get the genie back in the bottle because of pirated copies, etc.

bombergirl69 · Aug 5, 2016

Thanks so much Captcha! I forgot to say my story is in the days before eformated anything but regardless, that still answers my question about finding out how many.

I feel so stupid about this one teeny, but not irrelevant, detail. This author has hidden his MS in plain sight - he published it. So while everyone's been looking for it, it's been right there, printed. I sort of liked the idea that even if one could determine how many copies, even assuming a very very small run, that would mean plenty of copies...out there, potentially.

I may have to rethink this part. I don't know enough about it. I've changed this part quite a bit but I'll likely change it again!

I guess I have to figure out how to hide a MS in a hard cover book. Mayb time to head to brainstorming!!

Thanks again!

Marissa D · Aug 5, 2016

If the dead author had self-published back before e-books, he or she would likely have a garage full of cartons of books....and it would have been highly unlikely that many sold because bookstores wouldn't have stocked them. So yeah, you may need to rethink this.

Also, just because the agent is the literary executor, I don't think it means he or she can make the final decision about whether a book is published posthumously if there are family members around who don't want it published. You might need to check into that too.

frimble3 · Aug 5, 2016

bombergirl69 said:
I guess I have to figure out how to hide a MS in a hard cover book. Mayb time to head to brainstorming!!

Thanks again!

I hear that an unknown author (in your case, have him use a pseudonym) and an ugly/uninteresting cover does a pretty good job.
Why did he have the book printed, and not tell anyone? This would give a clue as to number of copies and distribution. If he did a proper print run, and didn't tell anyone he was the author, I suspect that Marissa D. is right, check the garage or storage unit.
If he only did a handful of copies, but gave them to specific people (friends, enemies, people mentioned in the book) then it would be hard to ascertain how many copies (barring a receipt from Lulu or Kinko's) he made, or, who they were given to. Barring, of course, him being somewhat obsessive, and keeping a list of the people he wanted to give a copy to.

ElaineA · Aug 5, 2016

frimble3 said:
I hear that an unknown author (in your case, have him use a pseudonym) and an ugly/uninteresting cover does a pretty good job.
Why did he have the book printed, and not tell anyone? This would give a clue as to number of copies and distribution. If he did a proper print run, and didn't tell anyone he was the author, I suspect that Marissa D. is right, check the garage or storage unit.
If he only did a handful of copies, but gave them to specific people (friends, enemies, people mentioned in the book) then it would be hard to ascertain how many copies (barring a receipt from Lulu or Kinko's) he made, or, who they were given to. Barring, of course, him being somewhat obsessive, and keeping a list of the people he wanted to give a copy to.

These were very similar to my thoughts.

Why? Why did the author want to do this? That will give you the answer to "how many copies did he print?" I'm assuming a published author in the pre-ebook days would have at least tangential contacts in the book-printing industry. Some "friend" could print copies. And if the author is famous, even one copy is enough to make it public, right?

As to whether an already-published book could be republished, sure. If a publisher thinks their profit will be good enough even without first rights, why not?

This strikes me as one of those things you, as the author, have the power to dictate. Launching from Frimble, he wanted some revenge, he printed 5 copies, sent 3 to the people he was angry at, kept one and put one in the safety deposit box. Was it actually published (does it have an ISBN) or was it only printed? These are all within your power to decide.

bombergirl69 · Aug 6, 2016

Oh wow, this is just terrific and thank you!! yes, what I was hoping for was that he DID print 5-6 copies so the book that's found is only one copy.

Can one only print up 5-6 copies (which would be perfect)? Would those copies physically look like a book (that's wht I need!)

The ISBN number(to sell the book, right?) is not as important for my story, as long as it is within the realm of possibility that the book would be printed, and look like a book (so author can through a dust jacket from another book on it) He (author) could get the 5-6 printed without one if he had no intent to sell, right?

In my story, the agent/ exec wants to publish and family member, once they see what's in there, says no. Then fam member (protag) is reminded that there are other copies out there (and finding out there are 5-6 would be excellent--25 would still be workable, 500 I'd have a hard time with!)

So yes, ugly cover, unknown author, 5-6 copies, probably no ISBN - possible author needed to hide work, and decided to do it this way (print, throw on dust jacket from something else, put on bookshelf) with, of course, a plan that one of the people with a copy could, after some period of time or a particular person dies, contact agent and publish. That would be great for my story!!! This is right near the end of this book, and I was hoping to leave it that fam member says no, agent (who does not have a copy) cant' do much but would like to, but fam member realizes that other copies might be out there, which is an issue for book two (if this works)

thank you so much!! It's not a huge detail but one that I want to be plausible!!

Captcha · Aug 6, 2016

When is your book set?

It would be really easy to get only 5 or 6 copies printed today, with POD technology, but significantly more difficult (read: expensive, on a per book level) before POD became so widespread.

bombergirl69 · Aug 6, 2016

Thanks Captcha! Sometime in the 1990s or so (before cell phones were as common, clinics making the transition from paper to electronic records.) Expensive would be okay, if someone with money could buy just a few copies!

King Neptune · Aug 6, 2016

bombergirl69 said:
He could have printed any number, but the printer would have wanted him to get a number, if there had been a lot. Whoever wants to know, especially the literary executor, could simply ask the printer how many copies there were. The literary executor has power over the printed works and manuscripts, but the family could protest and bring it to court.

I would think that the agent would want it published, because it would bring income, especially if there were controversy.

Could an agent/exec publish a book that' already been self published by the author?

Click to expand...

Sure, this is not uncommon.

Would a call to the printing company garner information on how many copies were run?
I was guessing the smallest number of copies would be somewhere around 25? Is that realistic?

Click to expand...

Yes, in all likelihood, but the printer might require a written request a written request from the literary executor.
Any size press run could have been done from 1 to thousands, and there are plates from which to run more.

frimble3 · Aug 6, 2016

If it's before POD, he could go to a printer, order his half-dozen copies (a roundish number, less likely to excite interest than 'precisely 15') and (assuming he's not recognizable) flat out say it's a family history, and he wants copies for the siblings. This would pretty much guarantee that no-one at the print shop is going to take much of an interest. (Unlike saying "It's a scandalous memoir, yessirree, this will show'em!")

bombergirl69 · Aug 6, 2016

Oh this is perfect! JUST what I was hoping for (been mucking stalls this am and wondering where the hell else can I hide a MS?) So, excellent, he could go to a printer, using a pseudonym, order up those half doz (and yes, "boring family geneology") and at the print shop he could get them bound? Like a book? (Im such a goober here!) THAT totally works for me!

Thank you!

bombergirl69 · Aug 6, 2016

And yes, agent does want it published for exactly thsoe reasons, King Neptune!

I'm actually kind of okay with the mystery, but really if a guy with $$ ordered up his half doz "fam history books" paid in cash and used his pseudonym "Bob Squarepants" and left, the agent, if she wants to find anything out from the printer, is going to have to show that Bob S is really Stephen King, right? If stephen King didn't leave any paper trail, paid cash, etc, it would be a lot harder to find anything out from the printer (which i am okay with)

I am hoping to leave it that there are some number of books (half doz, whatever) out there. Maybe the person(s) who has it/them will come forward and maybe they won't. Maybe the author had a plan which has not been enacted yet. Given that in this case, agent/exec does not have the copy (fam member does) she does not have the printer info.

Anyway, probably not being clear but this is so helpful!!!

frimble3 · Aug 6, 2016

bombergirl69 said:
Oh this is perfect! JUST what I was hoping for (been mucking stalls this am and wondering where the hell else can I hide a MS?)

The perfect place to hide an MS, right under your nose! In plastic bag, into a suitably sized Rubbermaid container, then under the muck heap. Probably not good for long-term storage, as the acids and ammonia would break down the plastic and then the paper, but for a few days? Who's going to dig up the whole heap, 'just in case'?
(Oh, and if you're looking for trackable ways to destroy some of the other copies, let's not forget that abomination, the 'secret storage space' hollowed out of a book, with the intact cover. The character figures he's got one of the copies, opens the cover... and it's been gutted! Just enough remaining to confirm that it was one of the copies.

)

bombergirl69 · Aug 6, 2016

Ha! Yes, that would be a great place (I wouldn't last a second, my pile is quite ripe! I forget sometimes and go shopping in my barn boots and notice rather quickly how "earthy" the atmosphere becomes around me--people give me a lot of space!) But that is an interesting idea!! It actuallyworks to have some ambiguity about both how many and who, as far as copies go. The protagonist is just going to have to wonder. He has hidden the work behind the dust jacket of a novel near to his heart (a little bit of a theme in the novel) The manure pile provides possibilities for other stuff, though... :evil

Anyway, thanks. This has been extremely helpful!

King Neptune · Aug 6, 2016

bombergirl69 said:
Oh this is perfect! JUST what I was hoping for (been mucking stalls this am and wondering where the hell else can I hide a MS?) So, excellent, he could go to a printer, using a pseudonym, order up those half doz (and yes, "boring family geneology") and at the print shop he could get them bound? Like a book? (Im such a goober here!) THAT totally works for me!

Thank you!

Any printer that would print the book would be able to put a basic cover on and could arrange for fancy covers, if that were desired.

He could even tell the print exactly what it was, and he might get some slight reaction, but printers don't care what the print job has as content, especially if they don't have to typeset it, so make it photo-ready for offset printing.

Old Hack · Aug 7, 2016

bombergirl69 said:
What would the character's actual agent reaction be? In my story, they would like to publish the story themselves.

Agents don't usually publish things for their clients, they find publishing deals for them with good publishers.

Most agents I know would be upset that their client didn't trust them enough to discuss this with them; and would recognise that the client was probably breaking their contract with the agent by publishing something without that discussion.

The agent is the executor of the literary trust the character established before dying and wants the story.

If the literary agent is the executor of a literary trust, then they'll be able to do whatever they want with the story, I think. But why they'd "want the story", I'm not so clear. If they want to get it more widely published, then if they're in charge of the trust I'm pretty sure they can.

The main character, who finds the book, realizes how sensitive it is and does not want the agent to have it. The agent reminds the MC that there are other copies out there...somewhere.

This main character of yours might object to the publication of the memoir, and could certainly delay things by starting legal proceedings to prevent its publication. But then I could start legal proceedings against anyone I wanted in order to prevent the publication of their book: that doesn't mean I'd be successful in doing so.

bombergirl69 · Aug 7, 2016

Thanks so much! So, yes, the author, who has been dead a few years, did break his contract. Nope, didn't trust his agent but then again didn't trust anyone. Not even the MC. He decided to write a memoir, much of what is covered in this (my) story. People know he was working on something, and figure it would be worth a fortune if found. But htey can't find it. The MC finds it (a self published book) and sees how damaging it could be. She calls the agent, to tell them "hey, found the book but much to sensitive to publish" and agent does not agree. Thinks it should be published ASAP--sensational story, great market value--and reminds MC there could be other copies anyway (although none have surfaced) So, agent does not have the book, the MC does and she is not inclined to share it--would do whatever so agent didn't get it.

It will turn out (later, next book, likely) that someone does have another copy and there was a plan to release it after one person in particular dies.My book is already complex enough I think, although at this point, who knows? Maybe I'll toss that in there too!

Anyway, this is exactly what I needed to know, so thank you so much!

Old Hack · Aug 7, 2016

bombergirl69 said:
Thanks so much! So, yes, the author, who has been dead a few years, did break his contract. Nope, didn't trust his agent but then again didn't trust anyone. Not even the MC. He decided to write a memoir, much of what is covered in this (my) story. People know he was working on something, and figure it would be worth a fortune if found. But htey can't find it. The MC finds it (a self published book) and sees how damaging it could be. She calls the agent, to tell them "hey, found the book but much to sensitive to publish" and agent does not agree. Thinks it should be published ASAP--sensational story, great market value--and reminds MC there could be other copies anyway (although none have surfaced) So, agent does not have the book, the MC does and she is not inclined to share it--would do whatever so agent didn't get it.

If the agent controls the late author's literary estate, the agent could then take legal action against the MC, I would think, to compel her to share the book. And it would then be the agent's decision whether or not to publish it. The MC wouldn't have any power there, I don't think.

It will turn out (later, next book, likely) that someone does have another copy and there was a plan to release it after one person in particular dies.My book is already complex enough I think, although at this point, who knows? Maybe I'll toss that in there too!

Anyway, this is exactly what I needed to know, so thank you so much!

Whoever was planning to release the book after that one person in particular dies doesn't have the rights to do so, though. If by "release" you mean "publish". They'd get into serious trouble, especially if the literary agent wanted to arrange publication of the book and was preempted by them.

bombergirl69 · Aug 8, 2016

Thank you! Could the person with the book have received instructions from dead author to contact his agent/exec when a certain person dies? i just wanted the author to have written this stuff, not wanted it released right away (would hurt people) but did want it released eventually. Author knew agent would not wait. That way, agent could still publish, but not as soon as they want. MC does not know about plan, just that the material would hurt people which MC knows was not the author's intent. Things could happen so that the book was not available and she could plausibly deny having any knowledge was to where it went. I guess the agent/exec could take legal action, which is interesting, hadn't thought about that. I'd probably save that for next book and if it's plausible, leave this one with MC having book and not knowing if there are other copies, what any plan might be, or if the agent will pursue it. THanks again SO MUCH!!! A lot to chew on!!!

Old Hack · Aug 8, 2016

bombergirl69 said:
Thank you! Could the person with the book have received instructions from dead author to contact his agent/exec when a certain person dies? i just wanted the author to have written this stuff, not wanted it released right away (would hurt people) but did want it released eventually. Author knew agent would not wait.

The author would have told their agent about the book and left instructions that it was not to be published until after that person had died. The agent would have had to have respected this.

That way, agent could still publish, but not as soon as they want.

Agents don't publish things. Publishers publish things.

MC does not know about plan, just that the material would hurt people which MC knows was not the author's intent. Things could happen so that the book was not available and she could plausibly deny having any knowledge was to where it went. I guess the agent/exec could take legal action, which is interesting, hadn't thought about that. I'd probably save that for next book and if it's plausible, leave this one with MC having book and not knowing if there are other copies, what any plan might be, or if the agent will pursue it. THanks again SO MUCH!!! A lot to chew on!!!

Who would the agent take legal action against, and what would they hope to achieve by doing that? I am confused.

bombergirl69 · Aug 8, 2016

Thanks! No, author did not tell agent but told someone else (and gave them the book.) That person was to release material to the agent when a particular person died.

The MC (who is neither the agent nor the person with the instructions) finds one of the copies of the book (people have been looking for it.) MC sees it's sensitive and tells agent that book is found but not publishable at present. Agent would like to get their hands on the book to see it published. MC is not inclined.

I was not thinking the agent would pursue legally , because thats not where I need the story to go. They might try to be very persuasive though. I hadn't thought about that (was just responding to your idea that the agent, who is also the executor of the trust, could pursue the MC legally, to compel her to produce the book.) I'd have to think about that a little more and research a LOT more because I don't know enough about that kind of legal suit!

At this point, what I need is a) guy could self pub his book, even for just a few copies, b) agent exec could pursue publication if they had the book adn chose to do so, c) fam member could disagree and go to court but likely the agent would prevail. I think that' what I need, I have to think more about the legal angle!

King Neptune · Aug 8, 2016

bombergirl69 said:
At this point, what I need is a) guy could self pub his book, even for just a few copies, b) agent exec could pursue publication if they had the book adn chose to do so, c) fam member could disagree and go to court but likely the agent would prevail. I think that' what I need, I have to think more about the legal angle!

a) Yes
b) Yes
c) Yes

There could be a nice court battle, and the lawyers would love it, because they would win; that is, the lawyers would make money, the family would be unhappy, and the literary executor would get the book published.

Old Hack · Aug 8, 2016

I'm sorry: but this does not sound either reasonable or likely to me.

It doesn't ring true with how agents or publishing works.

You could probably manipulate events to make them work in the way you want them to work, and produce a decent storyline: but it's not likely to work for anyone who, like me, has some experience in publishing. And as it's a book you want to have published, that is going to be a significant problem.

bombergirl69 · Aug 9, 2016

Thanks Old Hack, the significant problem being...? I don't need more issues, that's for sure!!

I need, very generally, for a manuscript to be printed up as a book and for there to be only two or three copies. Is that part not realistic?
The agent, also the exec (is that not realistic? Acquaintance has that set up but maybe that's unusual?) does not have, but wants the book. Author has not discussed with the agent because they were worried agent would not want to sit on it, again, not realistic? So author had two-four, not sure, copies of book run, one of which MC finds. Agent would like, MC not inclined. So, is that last bit not realistic? Just trying to locate where the issue is so I can fix the story!

I really appreciate your feedback. This is a very small part of my story but I would like it to be generally plausible (Im not writing a book about self publishing but what I do have, I don't want to be wildly off base) went through this with someone writing about psychologists. what htey had was just completely unrealistic and were I reading it, I would have been disgusted. So no, I am not interested in going ahead with even small details that just aren't right!

Thanks again!

plot question involving self publishing - realistic (for plot, not me!)

bombergirl69

Captcha

bombergirl69

Marissa D

Scribe of the girls in the basement

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

ElaineA

All about that action, boss.

bombergirl69

Captcha

bombergirl69

King Neptune

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

bombergirl69

bombergirl69

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

bombergirl69

King Neptune

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

bombergirl69

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

bombergirl69

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

bombergirl69

King Neptune

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

bombergirl69