How would a king address a duke?

Assuming you're talking about England, the direct form of address from a peer or superior would be "Duke."

efreysson said:

Wikipedia tells me that in conversation a duke is addressed as "Your Grace". But would a social superior, i.e. the king, use it?

I'm not very familiar with use of titles in the English language.

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Just on instinct I'm inclined to say no. I don't think a king would call him "Your Grace," although he would probably still call him "Duke So-and-so" unless they were good friends or the king felt contemptuous.

In historical dramas, I think the king just addresses them by their peerage. So the Duke of Suffolk was just "Suffolk," which was the common way peers addressed one another after getting the ceremonial greetings out of the way. (A baron doesn't have to say "Your Grace" to a duke for every sentence, for example. Once he's says it, they're cool.)

It depends on when and where you're writing. Also the personal relationship the two have.

Historically speaking, most Kings would have called their Dukes by their first name or the title of the peerage in an informal way.

I.e. "Charles" or "Suffolk"

That just seems to be what gets recorded.

Source: I studied Medieval Lit/History in Grad School.

First names would indicate a very close relationship.

What Duke, where and when? Often, they would just call them "Bob." Or whatever their name was. Or just the title, as in "Duke, glad to see you."

How formal is the setting? In a court event they would be address more formally than hanging out in your local bordello.

Jeff

WeaselFire said:

What Duke, where and when? Often, they would just call them "Bob." Or whatever their name was. Or just the title, as in "Duke, glad to see you."

How formal is the setting? In a court event they would be address more formally than hanging out in your local bordello.

Jeff

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I agree with Jeff. If they're normally familiar with each other, first names would be appropriate. Totally inappropriate for everyone else, which is understood, which makes the familiar reference that more striking. To the King, the social conventions would be reversed. He'd refer to his heads as familiar and his subjects may get formal greetings. It's one of the ways to differentiate them. Readers should notice it. I would.

No, I don't think he would call them Duke. We have an awful lot of Dukes and have had for a very long while. So saying 'Duke' would have a lot of them looking at each other and saying 'who me?'

He would refer to their title. Suffolk, Norfolk, Gloucester. Wherever they are Duke of. Read the History plays of Shakespeare. That's how they referred to each other then.

Correct information for the UK from Correct Forms of Address (using information from Titles and Forms of Address: A Guide to Their Correct Use. London: A. & C. Black Ltd., Third Edition, 1932.)

"Addressed in speech as: "Your Grace" (by inferiors) or "Duke" (by social equals) the first time in conversation, followed by "Sir" (or the title name, e.g. "Glastonbury," if addressed by a very close friend or relative).
"Referred to in speech as: "His Grace" (by inferiors), or "The Duke" (by social equals)"

The sources don't specify how a superior (monarch) would address a duke, but politeness dictates they use the address as by equals unless the king is being obviously disrespectful

We don't have a Duke of Glastonbury, do we? It's in Somerset.

No, the "Duke of Glastonbury" would be a fictional personage.

I wouldn't recommend that. It's always a county, not a town. Unless it's London which is divided up into Dukedoms, like Westminster. But 'Duke of Glastonbury' or 'Duke of Manchester' would earn a curled lip.

ETA: I tell a lie, there is a Duke of Manchester. Descended from the Montagues, an old Norman family. But they now have no estate and no money so that's probably why no-one's heard of them!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Manchester

Duke of Cambridge, Duke of Windsor, Duke of York, Duke of Newcastle........

I think it was just the Duke of Glastonbury that made me curl my lip cos there's a Duke of Somerset.

Depends on where (all my small knowledge is UK-based) and when (all I know is medieval). But I hold with those who say the King would call him Charlie in private if they're friends, Suffolk or whatever his peerage is, in more formal or official settings. Of course, if it works for your story, the King might call him Charlie most of their lives and Suffolk if the latter had angered His Majesty. That might be a good and subtle way to tell Charlie that the Monarch is Not Amused.

efreysson said:

I appreciate the replies.

As for setting, it's a space opera, so I have a decent freedom to just make things up, but I want to stick at least somewhat close to real-life language for the sake of verisimilitude.

I guess I'll just go with "Duke John", "Duchess Anna", and so on.

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That would certainly be made up.

In the UK at least, Dukes are not referred to as "Duke Firstname" It's the Duke of PlaceName. Frex: The Duke of Denver. The King and Peers and friends would call him "Denver", unless they were very close friends and in private where it *might* be "Gerald" (first name) or a nick name.

The only titles where a first name is used are the honorary titles given to the children of Dukes and the first born son, and any daughters, of an Earl. These are Lord or Lady Firstname.

So the Duke of Denver has two sons: His firstborn son uses the Duke's lesser title--Viscount St. George. His second and subsequent sons are Lord Firstname. His daughters are Lady Firstname.

An Earl's first born son is Lord Firstname (unless there is a lesser title to use, such as Viscount Fauntleroy), his subsequent sons are Mr. Familylastname. His daughters are all Lady Firstname.

Other than those few Lord and Lady Firstnames, they're all addressed by their title by their friends, peers and superiors in public or if they aren't close.

Warwick (Earl of) - It is reported, mighty sovereign, that good Duke Humphrey traitorously is murd'red by Suffolk (Duke of) and the Cardinal Beaufort's means....."

King - That he is dead, good Warwick (Earl of), 'tis too true; blah blah blah......

Shakespeare Henry VI Part 2

Personally, I can't believe that a king would address a duke as "duke" or an earl as "earl"in the sense of saying, "good morning duke, what a bright and sunny day the lord hath bestowed upon us" or words to that effect.I'm pretty sure I've seen BBC costume dramas such as the Six Wives of Henry VIII wherethe king addresses people as "my lord Salisbury" not in the sense of Salisbury somehow being a lord over the king but a lord over others belonging to the king.

Sometimes the BBC get things right with stuff like that although I wouldn't trust them an inch with ancient Rome.

To be honest, speaking as an English person, if I read Duchess Anna I'd most likely put the book down and read something else.

Me too.

Sorry Efreysson, but you're going to lose at least two potential readers with that.

Duchess Anna as an example.