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Branwyn
04-26-2006, 06:42 AM
Would a hunting rifle be a 32 caliber? Also would it do enough damage to pierce the brachial artery(in the upper arm of a twenty-ish male) causing a major (fatal) bleed.That is providing no medical attention is given.

I know that artery pumps out a lot of blood quickly, I'm questioning the rifle's ability to inflict the wound.

ColoradoGuy
04-26-2006, 09:08 PM
I'm no gun expert, but I am an ICU physician. Even a .22 caliber can kill if it hits the right spot. I don't think that the brachial artery is the spot to hit, though. It is not a huge vessel. True, one could bleed to death if the brachial were ripped open, but simple pressure on the hole would stop the bleeding, particularly because the brachial sits next to a hard bony surface to squeeze against and most folks know enough to do that even if they never took first aid. It might work if you made your character unconscious, perhaps from a head injury as well, so that he bled out while lying there alone.

If you want your character to bleed to death, I'd pick a bigger vessel. The biggest ones are in the chest, but if you want to stay outside the chest or abdomen you could hit the carotid artery (plus/minus the nearby internal jugular vein) in the neck or the femoral artery and vein in the groin crease. The latter of these is tough to hold good pressure on to stop it from bleeding.

Still, I can assure you that very weird things happen in traumatic injury, and it would not be obviously absurd to bleed to death from a brachial injury if that is what the rest of your plot demands.

I hope that this helps you.

rich
04-26-2006, 09:21 PM
Go to the source. I believe Dick Cheney has a blog.

Dulvarian_Eldritch
04-26-2006, 09:46 PM
I think a femoral artery would be harder to stop the bleeding, would bleed more, and would make moving to go get help a lot harder.

Cathy C
04-26-2006, 10:22 PM
Well, there are a lot of .32 rifles out there (Marlin makes their 1894 lever action in this caliber, and so does Winchester), but your readers might more readily recognize a .30-30 or .30-06 as a "hunting" caliber. BTW, "." equals "caliber" and people also tend to think of guns when they see the . in front of the numbers.

You can have the bullet make a larger wound that would be more difficult to treat by making it a hollowpoint bullet, which expands on impact. The damage is greater than if it's a solid lead bullet. Speer makes a hollowpoint in .32

Hope that helps!

Branwyn
04-26-2006, 10:55 PM
Go to the source. I believe Dick Cheney has a blog.

Thanks for the chuckle.


The victim(of the gun shot) has tied the hands of the only person near enough to apply pressure, so that's not going to happen.

I was thinking hollowpoint. I have to research what guns shoot them, or do hunting rifles? I should have paid more attention when watching CSI.

Thank you all for the advice. I think I may go with a chest/abdomen wound.

Would this wound, from the thoracic aorta spurt or ooze, perhaps gush?

Jamesaritchie
04-26-2006, 11:56 PM
Thanks for the chuckle.


The victim(of the gun shot) has tied the hands of the only person near enough to apply pressure, so that's not going to happen.

I was thinking hollowpoint. I have to research what guns shoot them, or do hunting rifles? I should have paid more attention when watching CSI.

Thank you all for the advice. I think I may go with a chest/abdomen wound.

Would this wound, from the thoracic aorta spurt or ooze, perhaps gush?



Well, really high powered hunting rifles do not use hollow points. When you need really long range, along with very high velocity and accuracy, you use something that works like a hollow point, but that has a sharp point and a high ballistic coefficient. The Winchester Silvertip is a good example.

But lower velocity hunting rifles, from a .22, all the way up to a.444 Malrin, do use hollow points. Most rifles with tubular magazines, such as the Winchester Model 94, must use bullets with round noses or hollow points because a bullet with a pointed nose could fire the one in front of it when the point hits the primer during recoil.

At any rate, if you can fire the round from a lever action rifle, it's safe to assume it can have a hollow point.

The most common lever action round is the Winchester 30-30.

Branwyn
04-27-2006, 12:25 AM
Thanks James-- would 50-75 yards be considered a long distance?

rich
04-27-2006, 12:32 AM
At 50-75 yards Mr. Magoo could shoot a flea off a cats butt.

Tish Davidson
04-27-2006, 12:35 AM
If you want to do some heavy-duty research about firearms and their wounding power, you can start here:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

ColoradoGuy
04-27-2006, 01:21 AM
I think I may go with a chest/abdomen wound.

Would this wound, from the thoracic aorta spurt or ooze, perhaps gush?
A punctured aorta kills in under a minute, seconds really. We see this most often in ruptured aortic aneurysms rather than gunshots because the latter never make it to the hospital.

Aortic holes REALLY spurt; I was once involved in a surgical operation in which the aorta was accidentally punctured with a fairly small hole: the jet of blood hit the ceiling. The normal heart pumps about 6 liters of blood each minute, which equals the entire blood volume in the body of a large man. So in 30 seconds a major aortic tear loses 3 liters (about 3 quarts) of blood.

Jamesaritchie
04-27-2006, 01:40 AM
Thanks James-- would 50-75 yards be considered a long distance?

Seventy-five yards is point blank range for an experienced shooter with a rifle. Now, a Winchester '94 is not as accurate by any stretch as a good bolt action with a scope, but at seventy-five yards a good shot can, as Louis L'Amour once put it "Part your hair with the first bullet, and trim around your ears with the next two."

I can keep every shot in a playing card at seventy-five yards with a '94, standing on my own hind feet and with no scope. I can do the same at one hundred yards, and maybe a bit farther. I'd have to be blind to miss a standing man at three hundred yards. After that, the '94 has a bit of a rainbow trajectory, and you have to know the exact range of the target to expect a hit. The '94 loaded with 30-30 rounds is not really a long range weapn, and three hundred yards is really pushing its limits.

But at seventy-five yards? That's baby bear soup for even a halfway good shot.

Now, someone who has rarely fired a rifle, or never fired one, is not going to be able to do this.

Branwyn
04-27-2006, 03:13 AM
Mr. Magoo and I thank you all.;)

ColoradoGuy, I thought that was true of an aortic wound, but wanted to check.

James I never knew that, I'm not up on guns. My son recommended the 'bad guy' use a 9MM.

alleycat
04-27-2006, 04:22 AM
A 9mm is a handgun or submachine gun load (like an Uzi). I have a Smith & Wesson Model 39, which is a 9mm. It is loaded with hollow points.

I also have a Winchester '94 if you decide to go with that and need additional information.

I'm not sure whether it's been mentioned or not, but most rifle hunting loads are made to "mushroom" on impact, causing as much blood lose and trauma as possible. There is a science built around what bullets do when they hit an animal or human body.

ac

Branwyn
04-27-2006, 05:11 AM
The shooter is a gangster(mafia type), so I suppose the 9MM would be the one to go with. Easy to dispose. Smith & Wesson.

Thanks Tish, I did check out that web site. Plus googled gunshot wounds.

Thank you.

rtilryarms
04-27-2006, 02:51 PM
In what year is this scene?

Branwyn
04-27-2006, 06:41 PM
Present day.

rtilryarms
04-27-2006, 08:53 PM
Then the "Niner" is indeed the firearm de jour.

Jamesaritchie
04-28-2006, 12:00 AM
A 9mm is a handgun or submachine gun load (like an Uzi). I have a Smith & Wesson Model 39, which is a 9mm. It is loaded with hollow points.

I also have a Winchester '94 if you decide to go with that and need additional information.

I'm not sure whether it's been mentioned or not, but most rifle hunting loads are made to "mushroom" on impact, causing as much blood lose and trauma as possible. There is a science built around what bullets do when they hit an animal or human body.

ac



We should have mentioned that a hollow point is designed to mushroom, shouldn't we?

Jamesaritchie
04-28-2006, 12:13 AM
Mr. Magoo and I thank you all.;)

ColoradoGuy, I thought that was true of an aortic wound, but wanted to check.

James I never knew that, I'm not up on guns. My son recommended the 'bad guy' use a 9MM.



With a handgun, you have to cut the range considerably. Now, a really good shot can hit a man more often than not at seventy-five yards, but for most shooters, this is really reaching. Most people can't hit a man at twenty-five yards with a handgun, and I've seen police offciers miss a man several times at ten yards with a handgun. Fear and Adrenalin can make anyone miss.

I'm not as good with handgun as with a rifle, but I can keep all my rounds in a sheet of typing paper or a paper plate at twenty-five yards, and I'll generally keep all my rounds somewhere on a man sized target at seventy-five yards. But with someone shooting back, it's a different story.

Then again, I hate the 9mm round. It lacks stopping power. If you want your bad guy to carry a commonly used handgun that has real stopping power, give him a Glock in .40 caliber. The .40 caliber round is immensely popular right now, and so is the Glock. Glock, in fact, is the most popular handgun worldwide.

Me, I'm old-fashioned. I still prefer my Colt Gold Cup semi-auto in good old .45 caliber. When you hit something with a .45 caliber hollow point, you don't have to wonder whether it's going to stay down.

Cathy C
04-28-2006, 01:03 AM
Likewise with my Ruger Redhawk .44 Magnum... :D


(Oh, I did mention hollowpoints mushrooming, just not in those words.)

But a lot depends on the plot you're planning, Branwyn. It's immensely easier to walk around concealing a semi-auto pistol. But if they're in the woods TO hunt, it would depend on the state whether a 9mm is a "big-game legal" firearm. Some yes, some no. But it is easier to conceal than a .44 or .45 if the bad guy is hiding the fact he's armed.

Jamesaritchie
04-28-2006, 02:01 AM
Likewise with my Ruger Redhawk .44 Magnum... :D


(Oh, I did mention hollowpoints mushrooming, just not in those words.)

But a lot depends on the plot you're planning, Branwyn. It's immensely easier to walk around concealing a semi-auto pistol. But if they're in the woods TO hunt, it would depend on the state whether a 9mm is a "big-game legal" firearm. Some yes, some no. But it is easier to conceal than a .44 or .45 if the bad guy is hiding the fact he's armed.


I used to own a Ruger Blackhawk in .44 Mag, and I loved it. It was a single-action, and bulky, however, so it wasn't a good choice for self-defense, and I stopped hunting with modern weapons. When I hunt now, it's with a bow or a black powder weapon.

I like a .380 for an ankle gun. When I need a primary weapon that's a bit smaller and lighter than the Gold Cup, I carry a Colt Lightweight Commander, also in .45 Auto. It isn't as good a weapon as the Gold Cup, and isn't as accurate at fifteen yards on out, but it's more than Good Enough for most situations.

I've never owned a Redhawk, but it's a very good handgun. I think the last revolver I owned was a Colt Python with a 2.5 inch barrel, and I often wish I'd kept it.

Jamesaritchie
04-28-2006, 05:27 AM
When it comes to 'Mafia type' killings one of the hyped trademarks is a .22 round in the back of the head.

There is absolutely nothing on the North American continent which cannot be taken out with a .22 rifle, up to and including the .22 Hornet, absolutely nothing, and the distance factors are excellent for sniping. It is my favorite weapons choice in the event of a survival factor. One can carry a thousand rounds of ammo without undue fatigue while moving rapidly from place to place.

A single shot from this caliber eludes direction placement, unlike a large caliber. The projectile itself is extremely unlikely to be conducive to ballistic tracing, especially in a head shot, because of disfigurement. From reading your inquiry I would suggest a .22 Contender handgun using a 'dum-dum' (an x cut into the lead with a knife) which 'peels' back on impact and tears flesh apart.

Another thing to consider is whether the killer leaves casings on the ground or picks them up - this is important as to what type of weapon since casings are ejected using a semi, lever action, or a bolt action. I recall seeing professionals attach a 'catch bag' on the side of their rifles/handguns to prevent casing flying away and getting lost in the dirt or leaves. In a time limited situation, or in the dark, it could be very important.

A good marksman under the circumstances you suggest would probably use a single shot weapon or a revolver, being certain of the distance and target point. Place the round and walk away, casing still inside the weapon.

Another excellent option is a slug from a .410 single.

There's nothing that can't be killed with a .22, but there are a lot of things, including a man, that may kill you before it dies. Shooting at anything big and dangerous with a .22 is a stunt, and a damned fool one, at that. I've seen several men shot witn a .22 shot a .22 who refused to die, even with shots that were kill zone hits. I saw one man shot six times with a .22, all in the heart/lung area, and he almost beat the guy who shot him to death before going down himself. It's never about killing first. It's always stop first, kill second.

With dangerous game, including man, killing first just isn't the point. Stopping is the point, and a .22 isn't a sure stopping round, no matter where you place the bullet. Neither is a 9mm. You have to make sure that whatever it is you shoot doesn't kill you before it dies. Stop first, kill second. And while it's techinically correct to say you can kill anything on the North American continent with a .22, you're an idiot if you try it out in the field. Men have survived both solid head and heart shots from a .22, a .32, a 9mm, and on rare occasions, even larger rounds. And there are two spots on a grizzly where a .22 has any real chance of penetrating deep enough for a kill, and both are about the size of a nickel. It isn't even smart to shoot a a deer with a .22. Even if you kill it, which you might, it may run a mile before it dies, even if shotthorugh the heart.

A .410 slug isn't even considered adequate for deer, or for routine self-defense. It's a poor choice, anyway, because if you're going to use a .410 slug, you may as well be smart and use something with higher velocity, more stopping power, and much better accuaracy.

As for ejected casings, this isn't nearly as big a worry as most believe. It's only a worry for amateurs and TV shows. Rather than going with a single shot, another stunt, or with trying to rig something fancy to catch the brass, the professional way with a planned kill is to not use a weapon registered to you, and simply discard it after the kill.

If you do have to use a weapon registered to you, which you should only have to do in an emergency, then use the best weapon for the job, load the weapon while wearing gloves, and leave the brass wherever it falls. It takes about five minutes to change the firing pin and the ejector, and that spent brass will never be connected to you or your weapon. Professionals only worry about ejected brass on TV and in the movies.

Even ballistics isn't much of a concern for a professional. If the weapon isn't regitered to you, you discard it, and who cares about ballistics. If it is registered to you, it's as easy to change ballistics as it is to change the firing pin and the ejector.

And if you really want to kill a man from sixty yards on in, and you can use any weapon you want, the best choice by far is a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with either double ought buck, or #1 buck. Nothing is better for killing at close range than a 12 gauge shotgun with a proper load. And if you want absolutely dead certain stopping and killing power, along with very good accuracy out to about 160 yards, a 12 gauge sabot round is the best choice. A hit anywhere in the torso gives a 96% chance of a one shot kill, the highest there is, and a hit in a vital zone gives a 100% chance of a one shot kill.

A .22 is great to have for survival uses, but only if those survival uses do not include self-defense. A ,22 is a lot better than throwing rocks, but if you can have any weapon you want. the only advantage to a .22 is that it doesn't weigh much, and takes up less space.

But out in the real world, if you ever have to shoot something dangerous with it, be prepared to get eaten or clubbed to death before whatever you shoot dies.