fighting to the death -- while in manacles and outnumbered?

CassandraW · Jun 6, 2016

I am writing a scene in my epic poem where two people, a man and a woman, find themselves fighting to the death against half-a-dozen men in a smallish vestibule (let's say it's about 12 feet by 12 feet) that doesn't provide much room for running and moving about. The only exit is a narrow winding staircase, and I don't intend that any of them try to flee until the fight is over.

I'm no fighter and have never written a scene like this, and would very much appreciate input from those of you who know more than I.

The setup:

He is a trained soldier and once-excellent fighter and swordsman, though now middle-aged and no longer in great fighting shape. He is also in manacles that resemble these (i.e., with a longish chain between them). http://s124.photobucket.com/user/Praetorian12/media/P1010025.jpg.html His feet are unchained. He doesn't give a damn if he dies, but he wants to protect the woman at any cost.

She has some training in fighting and fencing, she's strong and agile, but she's also 40ish, and no Xena the warrior princess physically or fighting-skill-wise. (Assume, too, that she's wearing long ancient Greek style robes.) She is, however, brave, desperate, armed with a dagger (which her opponents do not know she has), and she is not wearing manacles. Also, her opponents are very much underestimating her both physically and mentally.

The six who oppose my hero and heroine are also middle-aged and are ex-soldiers. (Let us assume that my manacled hero was a better fighter in his day than they, and is spurred on by his determination to protect the woman.) The six are armed with swords, but have them sheathed because they are not expecting a fight from either of these two.

The scene I want:

The six decide to kill the woman. They aren't expecting her to attack, nor for their manacled prisoner to jump to her defense (they don't realize the two even know one another), but that's what happens.

I want her to stab the guy who goes to grab her, and then for the manacled guy to somehow knock one or two of the villains out with his chained hands, grab a sword (or, if it works better, a dagger) from one, and for he and the woman between them to dispatch the six villains to their oh-so-deserved end.

Question:

Is the scene I am planning at all realistic, or would chains like that be likely to hamper him to the point that even his fight training and desperation would not avail him? Does it seem ridiculous they'd triumph? Any ideas for moves he and/or she might make in this fight?

I'm writing the scene poetically, so I don't intend to go into tremendous detail. But I'd like what details I include to ring true to someone who knows more about fighting than I do! (or at least, to not seem preposterous and impossible.)

Thank you so much for any input you might have.

ETA:

The poem in question is in my signature, if you care (probably not, but you never know). It is a poem-in-progress, so I am posting sections as I complete them. In the last section (at the end of the OP), my heroine has just been surprised by the six villains and her manacled ex-love in a little vestibule of an underground crypt. I'm starting the next section from there.

King Neptune · Jun 6, 2016

Sounds like fun. I think you should use your imagination, remember that the chain of the manacles can be used to choke or to break a trachea or even a neck, if the guy is that strong. The chain can also be used as a flail, and depending on how long it is it could break a bone when used that way. I don't know what sort of thing you want, but I would suggest that you minimize details and use phrases like: He laid about him with the chain; first one fell, and then another.

CassandraW · Jun 6, 2016

Oh, great idea on using the chain that way! Thank you so much -- I will work that in.

He's out of shape, but still strong. And desperation to protect someone, along with not giving a damn about consequences to oneself, tends to give one extra strength, I think.

And yes, that is much the way I intend to write it. I want to throw in some not-unrealistic-detail, but it is not a blow-by-blow screen play scene where I block out every move.

Dreity · Jun 6, 2016

Even if they don't intend to flee right away, I think it'd still be smart to make a fast break for the staircase as soon as things turn violent so they could use it as a choke point. That would minimize the numbers disadvantage if only one or two bad guys can attack at a time.

CassandraW · Jun 6, 2016

Dreity said:
Even if they don't intend to flee right away, I think it'd still be smart to make a fast break for the staircase as soon as things turn violent so they could use it as a choke point. That would minimize the numbers disadvantage if only one or two bad guys can attack at a time.

Thank you -- I'll use that, too, I think! Fleeing wouldn't make sense here for a number of reasons, but yes, minimizing the numbers disadvantage will be important.

I'm so glad I posted - I'm getting a much more vivid sense of how this scene will play out.

Adam_Nox · Jun 6, 2016

Hi there, my writing, as bad as it probably is, involves a lot of hand wringing on how to get fight scenes just right, so I will at least share my thoughts.

I am writing a scene in my epic poem where two people, a man and a woman, find themselves fighting to the death against half-a-dozen men in a smallish vestibule (let's say it's about 12 feet by 12 feet) that doesn't provide much room for running and moving about. The only exit is a narrow winding staircase, and I don't intend that any of them try to flee until the fight is over.

-I hope there's a good reason for them fighting vs fleeing, but that's an aside. Two vs six isn't unbelievably insurmountable, and confined spaces would favor the two, even if slightly, preventing full engagement of more than say two on one.

He is a trained soldier and once-excellent fighter and swordsman, though now middle-aged and no longer in great fighting shape. He is also in manacles that resemble these (i.e., with a longish chain between them). http://s124.photobucket.com/user/Praetorian12/media/P1010025.jpg.html His feet are unchained. He doesn't give a damn if he dies, but he wants to protect the woman at any cost.

-Normally I would say, hey manacles could hurt. But the way those are shaped, ouch on the wrist! I assume this is like not present day. His combat training will be somewhat limited depending on where he's from and what time period. I would do a little research into that. It's safe to say he would manage an effective front kick to the solar plexis, and maybe if he's smart, go for the balls over and over. However, such a strategy would lend itself to a comedy rather than serious fiction.

-Almost all training in hand to hand, for non-competitive encounters, involves eye gouges and pretty much any dirty trick you can think of. Something to keep in mind. He would likely spot opportunities to blind, debilitate, break some fingers, stomp a foot hard with his heel, head butt, throat punch, etc.

She has some training in fighting and fencing, she's strong and agile, but she's also 40ish, and no Xena the warrior princess physically or fighting-skill-wise. (Assume, too, that she's wearing long ancient Greek style robes.) She is, however, brave, desperate, armed with a dagger (which her opponents do not know she has), and she is not wearing manacles. Also, her opponents are very much underestimating her both physically and mentally.

-It's likely only one or two will attempt to restrain her while the rest pile on the guy. A dagger is a small weapon, and in a desperate melee, a person can be stabbed without anyone, even the victim, realizing what is going on for a little while. Reading what you write below, we have a slight problem though.

The six who oppose my hero and heroine are also middle-aged and are ex-soldiers. (Let us assume that my manacled hero was a better fighter in his day than they, and is spurred on by his determination to protect the woman.) The six are armed with swords, but have them sheathed because they are not expecting a fight from either of these two.
-What you may have to decide is will these men pull swords and go for the kill when they resist, or will they attempt to subdue them without killing them until they see that the woman has gone stabby stabby on them? If the former, then that will be tricky to pull off, however here's some tips:

1. People getting in the way of others, then hesitant to take swings.
2. Very quickly taking 1-3 of them out with the dagger and well coordinated blows, then grabbing a sword for himself would even the odds, making the rest easier to choreograph.
3. Dagger could be used to take one hostage, get them to lay down swords, maybe. Melee could still break out after slitting his throat.
4. Without a clear area to fight, the protagonist could get stabbed shallowly, suffer some cuts that while deep, weren't instantly debilitating. Not enough room for strong swings, or powerful lunges.

The scene I want:

- I should have read this part first

The six decide to kill the woman. They aren't expecting her to attack, nor for their manacled prisoner to jump to her defense (they don't realize the two even know one another), but that's what happens.

I want her to stab the guy who goes to grab her, and then for the manacled guy to somehow knock one or two of the villains out with his chained hands, grab a sword (or, if it works better, a dagger) from one, and for he and the woman between them to dispatch the six villains to their oh-so-deserved end.

-It might be better that the man catch a glimpse of the dagger, or she flashes it to him discreetly, then he initiates combat, and they choose not to draw on them immediately, and in the chaos, she could take out the man you mention and maybe another before stuff gets real. Otherwise, having all the men rush the women would provide an opportunity for the man to grab the handle of a still-sheathed weapon, pull it, and start hacking.

Question:

Is the scene I am planning at all realistic, or would chains like that be likely to hamper him to the point that even his fight training and desperation would not avail him? Does it seem ridiculous they'd triumph? Any ideas for moves he and/or she might make in this fight?

-Given their background and other details, I think the better they start the fight, the more realistic it will be to the reader, and that yes it can be believable.

I'm writing the scene poetically, so I don't intend to go into tremendous detail. But I'd like what details I include to ring true to someone who knows more about fighting than I do! (or at least, to not seem preposterous and impossible.)

Thank you so much for any input you might have.

-Good luck

Nekko · Jun 6, 2016

Cass-with a chain that long (the one you posted a link to) your protagonist could certainly use it to choke out one of the assailants, especially if he came from behind while they were all focused on his lover. He could then use the body as a shield, I don't know, maybe help back one of the others towards the stairs where they lose their footing and fall backwards down them, breaking their neck, while she stabs another one. Boom-three dispatched, and now your numbers are more manageable for the two lovers.

PS- I love your idea of the anthology tribute to Mac, but poetry is not in my writing skillage scope. I hope it comes together!

CassandraW · Jun 6, 2016

Thank you, Adam!

FYI -- there are several reasons not to flee. The man and woman present a threat of mortal danger to the six villains as long as they live, and vice versa. Even if there were a temporary escape, it wouldn't be for long. If the six ran away, they'd know the man and woman would use some long-buried dirt on them to drag them from their high positions and bring them to justice and likely execution for past crimes. If the man and woman ran away, they'd know the six would be in hot pursuit for that reason.

Moreover, fleeing up a narrow winding stone staircase with armed and determined people pursuing you -- I think your risk of tripping /being caught is strong. Using it to fight -- yes, that could work gorgeously.

For various reasons, the manacled dude has resigned himself to death. He's got exactly one reason to live -- to ensure that she does. If the chains hurt him as he fights or he gets wounded or killed, he'll regard it as not only worthwhile, but well-deserved. And he's happy to fight dirty to take these guys out.

What I'm thinking is that the element of surprise would work in favor of my desperate couple. The six men have their swords sheathed, thinking they won't need them -- not even knowing that the man and woman would work together -- when suddenly she's stabby-stabby, and he's swinging chains. My knowledge of fighting is scanty, but I'm thinking that drawing your sword (especially in a small space) when desperate people have already gone unexpectedly stabby-stabby and fighty-fighty would be more challenging than if you were expecting a duel and your opponent were not already attacking.

I do rather like the idea of him getting a glimpse of the knife before they do. I may use that. He and she were long-ago lovers -- seems likely they'd catch on to one another before the six unsuspecting villains would catch on to either of them.

ETA:

A hostage wouldn't work. These six are mostly all about themselves. They have a common interest, which is why they're fighting together. But they don't give much of a shit about protecting one another, and would blithely sacrifice one of their own to ensure their own safety. The man and woman are another story.

CassandraW · Jun 6, 2016

Nekko said:
Cass-with a chain that long (the one you posted a link to) your protagonist could certainly use it to choke out one of the assailants, especially if he came from behind while they were all focused on his lover. He could then use the body as a shield, I don't know, maybe help back one of the others towards the stairs where they lose their footing and fall backwards down them, breaking their neck, while she stabs another one. Boom-three dispatched, and now your numbers are more manageable for the two lovers.

PS- I love your idea of the anthology tribute to Mac, but poetry is not in my writing skillage scope. I hope it comes together!

Thank you!

Hmmm. You know, they're at the bottom of a staircase in a windowless vestibule (with locked doors leading off it into rooms), but there is no reason there couldn't be another winding staircase going down to a still lower level. Indeed, that would work with my idea of the building in question and its purposes.

By the way, with our AW anthology, I am playing with the idea of including flash fiction as well as poetry. Am discussing with a couple of long-timers whether we can make that work. I am fairly certain our theme will revolve around a traveling carnival. If that interests you, keep an eye out for announcements. I intend to work with the mods to spread the word around the forums.

Alas, we'd probably keep it to flash fiction if we did that, rather than longer stories, simply because we don't want to overwhelm the poetry (it is mainly a poetry project), because of editing, etc., etc. Indeed, we plan to impose length limits on poems -- none of my epics! But I rather like the idea of including very short fiction, if it is manageable.

tiddlywinks · Jun 6, 2016

Hey there, Cass:

Oooh, fight scene in poetry. I like! So, I'm not trained in combat or anything, and thus would defer to anyone else who comes bounding in with such knowledge. But, a couple of things come to mind: you could look into some of the moves and basic principles of Judo and Aikido for some maneuvers your hero could manage to use his attackers' weight against them and defend against multiple attackers. Depending on the boots he's wearing, a well placed kick to the knee could severely damage the knee cap, and as one of the earlier responders mentioned, going for the eyes or chopping a hand against a windpipe will certainly incapacitate someone - enough time that they either can't go for a sword or they might drop it. Miss stabby stabby could certain sweep someone's feet out from under them as well.

I also liked Nekko's suggestion of strangling someone with the chain and using them as a shield - perhaps, rather than killing them right away, you could have one of the fellows actually decide to pull a sword and hero could use his shield to get run through instead. Also, I think Miss Stabby Stabby should upgrade her dagger after slitting someone's throat and pull a sword for herself

And kicks to the 'nads are always a safe bet, along with maybe using a purloined sword hilt to break a nose or two.

Also? Don't have your villians wait one by one to attack. That's not realistic - while pretty, once the guys realize what's going on, they're going to rush the biggest threat or split off in groups. That's also why I think Miss Stabby Stabby needs to snag a sword and hack some limbs herself.

Shutting up now. Maybe that sparks a bit or two extra for the scene.

Best of luck with this!

Winks

CassandraW · Jun 6, 2016

Thanks, Winks! That does spark some thoughts I'll play with.

Thank you, everyone. This has been quite helpful to me. I'm writing a sort of prelude scene leading to the conflict now, but i'm feeling much more confident about moving into the fight scene.

mirandashell · Jun 7, 2016

A good fighter, especially one in experienced in dirty street fighting, will use anything that comes to hand as a weapon. Including the chain between his wrists. Absolutely anything can be a weapon if you use it right. The main aim in a fight is to stop your opponent getting back up again.

CassandraW · Jun 7, 2016

It's funny -- the main reason I looked to see if any ancient manacles had chains was to give his hands and arms a bit of maneuvering room for fighting. I couldn't see him obtaining or using a sword if he only had an inch or two between his wrists. I was relieved to see that some apparently did have a fair bit of chainage going on, and that it wouldn't ring false if he did, too.

But after this thread, I am increasingly looking at the chain as the deadly flail/strangulation tool with with he quickly disables a couple of villains as she stabs, enabling them both to grab a weapon and fight (with much better odds of triumphing). And I think that downward staircase is going to become a feature of the vestibule, and part of the fight.

I'm considering having Manacled Dude catch a glimpse of Ms. Stabby-Stabby's knife and initiating his chain swinging action to not only take out a couple of villains, but also to remove their attention from her. Then as they turn to subdue him, before they even have a good chance to draw their swords in the confusion, Ms. Stabby-Stabby gets a couple of them in the back and grabs a sword before they even realize that she's not standing helplessly by wringing her hands as per time-honored cliche. This could happen quite quickly I think -- and after that, with the numbers evened up and momentum on their side, it would be cake for my desperate pair.

The fight scene itself is going to be quite short -- just a few brushstrokes. But it will look quite a bit different now than it would have if I hadn't enlisted your thoughts. Thanks to all for helping!

Ravioli · Jun 7, 2016

Hmm.. first of all, swords and rifles in a small space give a major disadvantage because of their invariable length. Wielding them is a clumsy business, you have to keep your arms close to your body or even push them back. Especially with this many people in the vesti scuffling around, most of whom neither of the attackers wants to harm for their all being mates. One person can most easily be attacked by only one person at a time with so little maneuvering space.
They don't expect the woman to fight back which gives her an advantage. She can at any time feign weakness, and when they get close, she can stab the aorta or, if she can afford to leave herself wide open (like regrouping after the previous sword strike), the eye.
The man can try and wrap his chains around a throat or two from behind, and some people hard-pressed to survive, have also bit throats. He can simultaneously strangle and throat-rip an opponent from behind.
Is there glass? Push the opponent through with sheer body weight by just bodyslamming the sucker. Glass isn't a tickle like in the movies, one light brush can flay an arm and you don't even notice, let alone a throat. I'm looking at a scar I got like that as I type.
If he doesn't care about dying, he can go wild grabbing collars and smashing people through glass, butt-slamming floored ones (dropping on them butt-first after a big leap), or curb-stomping them. The more are floored, the more difficult it becomes to move around, and those with the longest weapons are at the greatest disadvantage. They can mostly do straight jabs now. Every time they strike, there is a huge window to mess them up.

Sincerely, a dainty, delicate little creature :hooray:

CassandraW · Jun 7, 2016

Thank you!

Yes, I'd thought about the room-for-swinging thing. That's why my initial thought was that her dagger might actually be more useful in such close quarters, provided she was good with it (which she is). That and the fact that the swords are sheathed and they aren't expecting to need to draw them. I'm no expert, but I can imagine that my desperate pair, with surprise on their side, could manage to put a few out of commission with chain and dagger before the villains got their wits together and managed to get a sword out of a scabbard.

Once a few people are down and out of the way, and if and when swords are actually drawn, that will be another matter -- with room to swing, a sword would be more deadly than a dagger.

There's no glass, but I'm thinking a couple of villains shall be backed against the stairway heading down and take a tumble, with a little encouragement from the flailing chain. Perhaps one shall break his neck against the stones; the other attempt to struggle up with broken arm, but will be promptly dispatched with a sword.

This is fun!

mirandashell · Jun 7, 2016

Plus manacles turn your clasped hands into a very effective club, due to the weight. He locks his hands together and swings his arms up, takes one under the chin and the other on the side of the jaw in pretty much the same movement. Which distracts the others giving Ms SS the chance to grab a dagger and perform a kidneyectomy.

ETA: The other three are taken by surprise and go for their swords. Ms SS legsweeps the nearest one and then slits his throat while he's on the ground. Mr Chain does the strangle cos he's now got room to move and the last remaining guard is backing up like a bastard cos the odds are now totally not in his favour.

How's that sound?

CassandraW · Jun 7, 2016

Like FUN!

When I post the completed fight section of my poem-in-progress, I'll post a link here in case any of you are curious to see how I turned all this into poetry.

And for fun (and to give you all proper credit) I think I shall post a link to this thread in my poem-in-progress thread once I post the fight section. The people following my poem (I have nearly 13,000 hits on it so far! not so bad for a poem) might get a kick out of seeing the brainstorming session that went into the fight.

tiddlywinks · Jun 7, 2016

Can't wait to see what you do with it, Cass! Cool question.

Cabbit · Jun 9, 2016

Fun question!
An experienced fighter would use whatever weapon is available. The chains could be used for strangulation or swinging or tripping. A group caught off guard can be used against each other. One can be pushed into his buddies, knocking them over. The dagger can be used to slash at the opponents, or used to kill if stabbed into the right spot.
There are sword techniques for tight spaces. See https://youtu.be/9UOCn0zyD4k. It's an Iaido technique meant for tight alleyways. They could possibly catch them off guard and take a sword to use against them.

CassandraW · Jun 21, 2016

FYI, I've just posted the section of my poem that contains the fight scene! It is section XXVI (Battle Redux) -- it is at the very end of the first post (so you have to scroll down some in the first post to get to it).

I've also posted a link to this thread in post 117 of that thread, so the folks who've been following my epic can check out all of your excellent advice, if they are so inclined.

Thank you all again for your great input. It was so much fun to brainstorm with you, and I am very grateful for your help.

fighting to the death -- while in manacles and outnumbered?

CassandraW

King Neptune

CassandraW

Dreity

CassandraW

Adam_Nox

Nekko

Back to purring

CassandraW

CassandraW

tiddlywinks

Chaser of Shineyyyy Plot Bunnies

CassandraW

mirandashell

CassandraW

Ravioli

Crazy Cat Lady

CassandraW

mirandashell

CassandraW

tiddlywinks

Chaser of Shineyyyy Plot Bunnies

Cabbit

CassandraW