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juhanwill
06-04-2016, 12:31 PM
I have a book (non-fiction) and I have written a bunch of headlines/titles for that book. Some of these headlines or titles seem very good. But I don't know which of them will actually work best for selling such a book.

And so how could I go about testing headline (book title/subtitle) ideas for a book?

Like mail-order guys once did. (You know, John Caples and Claude Hopkins stuff.) How do I do it on the Internet?

For example, how did you do it with Facebook Ads, Google AdWords, and so forth. I know Tim Ferris used AdWords to split-test his titles (this was way back when AdWords was more friendly with direct response advertisers--now, as you know, full site is required).

So therefore, how would you do it now with AdWords or with Facebook Ads? (I assume Facebook is pretty easy, like AdWords in the old days.)

P.S.

This question is for book authors who know how to sell non-fiction books, not necessarily how to write great literature.

juhanwill
06-04-2016, 12:35 PM
The title or headline for this thread should be as the following:

"How do I A/B split-test different headline/title ideas for a book using Facebook Ads, or even Google AdWords?".

(Once the title has been implemented, please delete all the posts not directly relevant to this thread's question of mine.)

Thank You

Old Hack
06-04-2016, 08:00 PM
It looks like another mod got here before me and merged your two threads. If I delete your first post, it'll delete the whole thread. So let's pretend that post isn't there, and move on to your question.

Can you explain what you mean by headlines? I assume you mean subtitles or straplines to use in ads or reviews: but we need to know exactly what you are asking before we can give you our opinions.

WriterBN
06-04-2016, 08:02 PM
Ah, Claude Hopkins. One of my former bosses swore by his books and made all of us read them, even though he completely misinterpreted many of Hopkins' ideas. I never much cared for his writing style, though--he came off as a pompous windbag for the most part.

Anyway, how are you going to use the headlines? PPC ads? Facebook posts? Part of the synopsis? I've seen authors poll their Twitter followers for story titles and covers, so that's one way to do it. If you're doing ads, simple A/B testing should work.

juhanwill
06-05-2016, 09:31 AM
Well, anyone who knows about it also knows what I mean by headlines. Headlines are basically the same as titles and subtitles, and so forth. Anyone who does not respect Claude Hopkins is not welcome in this thread. I am not interested in opinions of some "clueless-artsy-writers" who do not know anything about selling. This is for book authors who know how to sell non-fiction books, not necessarily how to write great literature.

mccardey
06-05-2016, 09:36 AM
Well, anyone who knows about it also knows what I mean by headlines. Headlines are basically the same as titles and subtitles, and so forth. I don't know about it. Can you explain? Even if I can't help, I'd like to know.

Helix
06-05-2016, 09:39 AM
Well, anyone who knows about it also knows what I mean by headlines. Headlines are basically the same as titles and subtitles, and so forth.

Probably better to use the terms titles and subtitles on a writing forum, if that's what you mean.

Brightdreamer
06-05-2016, 09:44 AM
Not entirely sure what you're asking, either, but my suggestion would be to get your post count up to 50 and head to the SYW section of these forums. (Only post there if you want honest feedback, though.) Or find a few trusted partners to bounce ideas off of.

mccardey
06-05-2016, 09:51 AM
Well, anyone who knows about it also knows what I mean by headlines. Headlines are basically the same as titles and subtitles, and so forth. Anyone who does not respect Claude Hopkins is not welcome in this thread. I am not interested in opinions of some "clueless-artsy-writers" who do not know anything about selling. This is for book authors who know how to sell non-fiction books, not necessarily how to write great literature.

Oh, I don't see this ending well...

Helix
06-05-2016, 09:52 AM
Well, anyone who knows about it also knows what I mean by headlines. Headlines are basically the same as titles and subtitles, and so forth. Anyone who does not respect Claude Hopkins is not welcome in this thread. I am not interested in opinions of some "clueless-artsy-writers" who do not know anything about selling. This is for book authors who know how to sell non-fiction books, not necessarily how to write great literature.

Well, good luck with that.

ETA: I had a publisher's marketing department to help with my non-fic stuff. Works a treat.

juhanwill
06-05-2016, 10:06 AM
Once again, anyone who knows about it also knows what I mean by headlines. Headlines are basically the same as titles and subtitles, and so forth.

Anyone who does not respect Claude Hopkins is not welcome in this thread.

This means that I am not interested in opinions of some "clueless-artsy-writers" who do not know anything about selling. This is for book authors who know how to sell non-fiction books, not necessarily how to write great literature.

Sage
06-05-2016, 10:15 AM
As a point of fact, you have no clue who has responded in this thread, what they write, or what they know about marketing.

If you're looking for answers based on people who follow Claude Hopkins, whose principles you seem to know quite well, I'm not sure what value you'd get from that very specific subset of authors/editors/publishers/book marketers. Follow the information you already have. People here may or may not have heard of, read, or even like the advice of one specific person, but that doesn't mean they don't know how to market your book. However, if you're not using normal publishing terminology, you can expect to be asked to clarify.

ETA: It should be pointed out that the #1 rule of AW is Respect Your Fellow Writer. Also, please read the Newbie Guide. Here's a handy link: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?66315-Newbie-Guide!

mccardey
06-05-2016, 10:20 AM
As a point of fact, you have no clue who has responded in this thread, what they write, or what they know about marketing. <<snip>> People here may or may not have heard of, read, or even like the advice of one specific person, but that doesn't mean they don't know how to market your book. However, if you're not using normal publishing terminology, you can expect to be asked to clarify.

I know quite a lot about marketing (20 years plus in advertising for starters) and I was wondering if "headlines" might be a different word for taglines, pull-quotes or elevator pitches. But I've lost interest now.

Old Hack
06-05-2016, 10:50 AM
Oh dear. Juhanwill, I urge you to pay close attention to what I'm about to say.

Stop editing your posts. Have the grace and courage to own your words.


Well, anyone who knows about it also knows what I mean by headlines. Headlines are basically the same as titles and subtitles, and so forth. Anyone who does not respect Claude Hopkins is not welcome in this thread. I am not interested in opinions of some "clueless-artsy-writers" who do not know anything about selling. This is for book authors who know how to sell non-fiction books, not necessarily how to write great literature.


Once again, anyone who knows about it also knows what I mean by headlines. Headlines are basically the same as titles and subtitles, and so forth.

Anyone who does not respect Claude Hopkins is not welcome in this thread.

This means that I am not interested in opinions of some "clueless-artsy-writers" who do not know anything about selling. This is for book authors who know how to sell non-fiction books, not necessarily how to write great literature.

You do not get to dictate who can and cannot post in threads at AbsoluteWrite. The boards are open to all our members, and all our members are entitled to respond to any thread in any way they see fit--so long as they do so with courtesy and respect. Because our one rule here is "respect your fellow writer". I strongly suggest you go and read The Newbie Guide To Absolute Write (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66315) before you post here again, and work harder to comply with our one rule in future.

Moving on to the rest of your comments: if you want to do well as a writer, you have to use words appropriately. There's no point getting in a snit when people ask you for clarification. It's just proof that you weren't clear enough the first time round.

Before you dismiss me as one of those ""clueless-artsy-writers" who do not know anything about selling", I'll tell you a little about myself. I've worked in publishing for over thirty years. I've spent some time in computer games publishing and newspaper publishing, but most of my experience has been gained in publishing. I've worked as an editor and as a marketing director, and I've spent time in sales too, where I was very successful. I specialise in non-fiction. I've had over forty books published, several of which have been best-sellers. I've worked for and with publishers all around the world, and my books have been published in more languages than I can remember.

I can therefore say with some authority that headlines are not "basically the same as titles and subtitles, and so forth". Headlines appear in newspapers, not on books; books have titles and subtitles.

So I'll ask you again: can you explain what you mean by headlines? I assume you mean subtitles or straplines to use in ads or reviews: but we need to know exactly what you are asking before we can give you our opinions.

Helix
06-05-2016, 10:52 AM
These ongoing edits are making me dizzy.

But the OP is much clearer now.

ETA: Pipped at the post by Old Hack. *bows out*

juhanwill
06-05-2016, 10:59 AM
I know quite a lot about marketing (20 years plus in advertising for starters) and I was wondering if "headlines" might be a different word for taglines, pull-quotes or elevator pitches. But I've lost interest now.
Yes, the headline for this thread should be improved. Here is the new title or headline:

"How do I A/B split-test different headline/title ideas for a book using Facebook Ads, or even Google AdWords?"

Old Hack
06-05-2016, 11:03 AM
juhanwill, I repeat: STOP EDITING YOUR POSTS.

It throws the whole thread into confusion.

juhanwill
06-05-2016, 11:12 AM
Please delete the posts not directly relevant to my question and change the title/headline like I said. Thank You

Old Hack
06-05-2016, 11:18 AM
Yes, the headline for this thread should be improved. Here is the new title or headline:

"How do I A/B split-test different headline/title ideas for a book using Facebook Ads, or even Google AdWords?"

So what you're asking is how to test out different titles for your book using Facebook ads, etc., with a view to working out what will make your book sell the most copies. I hope I've got that right.

If you're going to try for a trade publishing deal then you don't have to do this. Your publisher will work on finding the best title for your book, and it's not something you have to worry about. But do try to get a coherent, appropriate title before you start submitting.

If you're going to self publish then you do need to find the best title for yourself. However, remember that the title isn't the only thing which will sell your book: the jacket design plays a huge part, your own credentials and platform are very important, and how you market and promote the book are essential too. Most important, of course, is the content of your book, and how well-written it is. There are many things out of your control, such as how reviewers respond: but the more things you get right at the start, the more likely you are to end up with a portfolio of strong reviews behind you.

The problem with product-testing ads on Facebook is that all they tell you is how well that ad has done on Facebook. They don't tell you which part of the ad worked, or why it worked (or didn't). And they're not likely to tell you how people's responses to your ads translate into sales, as you can't possibly track all the responses to those ads.

Note that advertising is not a very effective method of selling books anyway, so you might well be wasting your time in focusing on this one point. Book sales depend on many things: what the reader wants is prime and if the ad for your serious non-fic is only seen by people who want to read romances then you're stuffed no matter how good your book title is.

Note also that ads usually contain both a headline and the book's title and subtitle, so you're going to have to work on all of these things. Which gives you a lot of variations to work with, which is going to lead to a lot of testing on your part if you're determined to go ahead with this.

Better, perhaps, to choose the one you feel is most persuasive and appropriate, and stick with that.

Old Hack
06-05-2016, 11:20 AM
Please delete the posts not directly relevant to my question and change the title/headline like I said. Thank You

We don't delete posts here. Own your words and stop trying to control what everyone else does.

You can edit your own title. If I see you edit any more of your posts in this thread I will lock the thread and undo your edits.

Now. Let's try to move on, shall we?

juhanwill
06-05-2016, 11:28 AM
We don't delete posts here. Own your words and stop trying to control what everyone else does.

You can edit your own title. If I see you edit any more of your posts in this thread I will lock the thread and undo your edits.

Now. Let's try to move on, shall we? How do I edit the title?

Old Hack
06-05-2016, 11:30 AM
You don't.

You have repeatedly edited this thread, and have made several edits after I asked you not to, so I am now locking this.

juhanwill
06-05-2016, 11:35 AM
This question is for book authors who know how to sell non-fiction books, not necessarily how to write great literature. I ask this question on behalf of everyone interested in both the answer and the ideas as to how to go about doing it.

So here is the thing. I have a book (non-fiction) and I have written a bunch of headlines/titles for that book. Some of these headlines or titles seem very good. But I don't know which of them will actually work best for selling such a book.

And so how could I go about testing headline (book title/subtitle) ideas for a book?

Like mail-order guys once did. (You know, John Caples and Claude Hopkins stuff.) How do I do it on the Internet?

For example, how did you do it with Facebook Ads, Google AdWords, and so forth. I know Tim Ferris used AdWords to split-test his titles (this was way back when AdWords was more friendly with direct response advertisers--now, as you know, full site is required).

So therefore, how would you do it now with AdWords or with Facebook Ads? (I assume Facebook is pretty easy, like AdWords in the old days.)

Cheers!

Old Hack
06-05-2016, 11:40 AM
Nope.

When a thread is closed because you've not behaved yourself, you don't get to open a second (third, actually) thread asking exactly the same question.

Go and read the Newbie Guide.

Stop editing your posts. Stop telling people they can't post in your threads. Stop demanding that we delete posts.

Stop rushing.

juhanwill
06-05-2016, 12:09 PM
This question is for book authors who know how to sell non-fiction books, not necessarily how to write great literature. I ask this question on behalf of everyone interested in both the answer and the ideas as to how to go about doing it.

So here is the thing. I have a book (non-fiction) and I have written a bunch of headlines/titles for that book. Some of these headlines or titles seem very good. But I don't know which of them will actually work best for selling such a book.

And so how could I go about testing headline (book title/subtitle) ideas for a book?

Like mail-order guys once did. (You know, John Caples and Claude Hopkins stuff.) How do I do it on the Internet?

For example, how did you do it with Facebook Ads, Google AdWords, and so forth. I know Tim Ferris used AdWords to split-test his titles (this was way back when AdWords was more friendly with direct response advertisers--now, as you know, full site is required).

So therefore, how would you do it now with AdWords or with Facebook Ads? (I assume Facebook is pretty easy, like AdWords in the old days.)

Cheers!

(WARNING: If this thread gets deleted or redirected or adjusted in any way by any moderator because of personal reasons of feeling insulted or personal beliefs or values, I will contact the owner of this site to get things even. The moderator, in such case, will face the possibility of being removed from his or her position. Thank you for understanding. I'm not here to play. )

Old Hack
06-05-2016, 12:14 PM
Merged again.

juhanwill, you're getting tedious.


This question is for book authors who know how to sell non-fiction books, not necessarily how to write great literature. I ask this question on behalf of everyone interested in both the answer and the ideas as to how to go about doing it.

So here is the thing. I have a book (non-fiction) and I have written a bunch of headlines/titles for that book. Some of these headlines or titles seem very good. But I don't know which of them will actually work best for selling such a book.

And so how could I go about testing headline (book title/subtitle) ideas for a book?

Like mail-order guys once did. (You know, John Caples and Claude Hopkins stuff.) How do I do it on the Internet?

For example, how did you do it with Facebook Ads, Google AdWords, and so forth. I know Tim Ferris used AdWords to split-test his titles (this was way back when AdWords was more friendly with direct response advertisers--now, as you know, full site is required).

So therefore, how would you do it now with AdWords or with Facebook Ads? (I assume Facebook is pretty easy, like AdWords in the old days.)

Cheers!

(WARNING: If this thread gets deleted or redirected or adjusted in any way by any moderator because of personal reasons of feeling insulted or personal beliefs or values, I will contact the owner of this site to get things even. The moderator, in such case, will face the possibility of being removed from his or her position. Thank you for understanding. I'm not here to play. )

Feel free to report me to MacAllister, who owns AW, or to AW Admin, our site admin. I'm sure they'd love to hear from you.