Common knowledge

I'm not sure you can. But as long as enough people know, you should be able to write it. And those who don't know can easily find the information these days. One thing the internet is very good at! And in your example, the guy might not know about the Norse pantheon but he does have a rough idea who Odin and Thor are so he can keep up to a certain degree.

To be honest, I think the day you start worrying that your readers won't keep up is when you stop thinking about your story and start tying yourself in knots.

Not everyone will have the same background knowledge of various subjects, and some people may have much more knowledge about certain things than others (or specialize in fields that revolve around such knowledge).

I'm a college-educated person, and I didn't know much about Norse stuff until I saw some pop entertainment referencing some Norse stuff (like the video game, Odin Sphere, Avengers, an anime or two, etc).


I was never taught Norse gods or legends or stuff like that in my entire school education, so I'm not surprised that someone, even a college educated student, would not know about the Norse stuff, either.

The good thing is, if someone doesn't know about something, they can easily Google or research that something (as long as they have Internet access and/or a library, etc, nearby).

I'm not sure you can assume anything outside daily life is common knowledge, and I don't think it hurts to include explanation for an awful lot of stuff. Even if a piece of knowledge is "commonly known" because it features heavily in a popular television show or movie, did that show or movie make it to other English-speaking countries? If your story gets translated, will people who speak those languages know it?

And honestly, I didn't have a clear idea who Odin, Loki, and Thor were until I read a book about Norse mythology a month ago. Something something Norse gods, something something throwing runes, something something Marvel movies. End of knowledge.

Not that I approve of this, necessarily. I was brought up so that if I didn't know something, I looked it up in a damn dictionary (or encyclopedia). But more often than not, readers will be happier being spoon-fed.

paddismac said:

This seemed like a good forum for this discussion, but if it's not, please transport me to a better place!

A little background — My novels have undertones of Norse mythology. One of my alpha readers and I were discussing a plot point and the names Odin and Thor came up. Another person piped up and said "I don't know who that is, but it sounds like characters from that Vikings show you watch." What??? (And this was a college educated individual.)

That got me to thinking. How is it possible to know what other people are familiar with?? It's very easy for me to assume that "if I know it, everybody must know it", because I've never considered myself particularly knowledgeable about anything.

So how common is "common knowledge"? I'm not asking about my particular case, but rather writing about any subject. How do you distinguish between what is "known" and what requires explanation? (I thought I knew the difference, but the whole Odin/Thor thing proved me wrong!)

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Odin and Thor are common enough in the Western world that we have entire days named after them. If they're just in passing reference, I wouldn't worry about it. If they are full-fledged characters, you may need to define their roles some, but that would be true regardless.

There will always be gaps in knowledge, and you can't bridge them all. How much you have to explain is, I think, mostly to do with what the reader absolutely has to know in order to proceed.

But often, people can infer from context, find out, or ignore it (unless it is absolutely critical for them to understand in order to move on with the book). That's always what I do when I read something I don't get. Hell, when I was a young teenager, I used to read Bloom County a lot. I was reading the strip maybe ten or more years after it was originally made, and there are a hell of a lot of political and otherwise pop-culturey references in it that were before my time, or at least before a time when I was aware of anything other than the Ninja Turtles and Sesame Street. Know what? I still thought it was funny.

Sometimes, though, over-your-head references can get to be too much, or too obscure. You can't know for sure, of course, but if I get the same comment from critiquers over and over (wtf is this??), I consider changing One person? Not so much, unless I happen to agree, or think maybe I can think of a better reference.

People have different fabrics from which they build their awareness of stuff. It's going to vary a lot; all you can do is make general guesses and then poop it out for feedback or editing. As far as general guesses go--no exact science but Odin and Thor are probably okay. Specific species of head-spearing flatworms, maybe not. (But I'd still put them in anyway.)

Explaining can be ok but you need to be aware of not turning into Herman Melville.

I learned a lot of stuff as a kid, by looking things up that I didn't know about. That's before the internet. Um, actually, I think it's before Gutenberg-- but never mind that. The point is that people will either look it up, or just "roll with it", depending on their temperament. I doubt anyone who has the patience to read is going to throw a book against the wall just because it has a reference they don't know about.

People who are interested will look it up, if they want to know more, or they will read through and pick it up from your story.

I have been shocked many times by how ignorant educated people are. It probably it safe to assume that the average reader knows little or nothing about what you are writing.

mirandashell said:

Explaining can be ok but you need to be aware of not turning into Herman Melville.

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Unless you can go Full Melville, in which case, it'll be awesome.

Katharine Tree said:

Unless you can go Full Melville, in which case, it'll be awesome.

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Is that the literary version of the Full Monty?

Katharine Tree said:

Unless you can go Full Melville, in which case, it'll be awesome.

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The Full Melville: https://www.strava.com/segments/3840899


See, I can look shit up!

paddismac said:

How is it possible to know what other people are familiar with?? It's very easy for me to assume that "if I know it, everybody must know it", because I've never considered myself particularly knowledgeable about anything.

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The only possible way is to ask them . Everything else is guesswork. You could start by thinking of the possible ways to access the information in question. And then think whether this particular person has that access. For example, where could one acquire knowledge about the Norse gods? School? Depends where you are geographically. Movies perhaps, since they go global? But then, maybe this person does not like that type of movies. Maybe they are only interested in romantic movies starring Gary Cooper, and on the internet they only browse recipe websites. The more you know about the person, the easier it is to guess what the extent of their knowledge is. You could try to guess what type of person that is, what social group they belong to, what is their everyday environment. A very busy professional who is absorbed by their work may not have extensive knowledge of popular culture simply because they don't have the time to look at anything outside their work. Or, a person of a disadvantaged social group may not have interest in the latest trends in abstract painting, despite that the latter had been all over the media. The more you know, the better the guessing.

I doubt you'll see Moby Dick but you'll definitely spot Harry the Horse......

Kylabelle said:

Is that the literary version of the Full Monty?

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I was going for a Tropic Thunder reference, trying to get someone to say "never go Full Melville," but turns out I actually said something much cleverer.

Tropic Thunder didn't come up in the Google search at all!

paddismac said:

This seemed like a good forum for this discussion, but if it's not, please transport me to a better place!

A little background — My novels have undertones of Norse mythology. One of my alpha readers and I were discussing a plot point and the names Odin and Thor came up. Another person piped up and said "I don't know who that is, but it sounds like characters from that Vikings show you watch." What??? (And this was a college educated individual.)

That got me to thinking. How is it possible to know what other people are familiar with?? It's very easy for me to assume that "if I know it, everybody must know it", because I've never considered myself particularly knowledgeable about anything.

So how common is "common knowledge"? I'm not asking about my particular case, but rather writing about any subject. How do you distinguish between what is "known" and what requires explanation? (I thought I knew the difference, but the whole Odin/Thor thing proved me wrong!)

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Good question. I teach biology at a college, so there are some things I know that the average college freshman (or person who didn't take a biology class in college) doesn't know about biology. I also read a lot more about some subjects than some people, so while I may not be an expert, I'm unsurprised when I know more about some point of history, politics or whatever than many other people do.

I also run across people who know more than I do about some things, whether it be because they're experts on a topic I have only a passing knowledge of (this can happen, even within biology, since there are so many specialties), or because there are things many people are well versed about that I'm pretty ignorant of, because I'm not interested (sports are a great example). I watch very little TV, so when people start talking about popular shows, I mostly nod and smile and let my mind wander. Not being able to talk knowledgeably about shows nearly everyone else watches raises some eyebrows, no doubt.

Still, I have the reputation among my friends of being a person who's crammed to the gills with "fun fact" knowledge about a variety of topics (and for being one of those killjoys who knows that some of the things "everyone knows" are myths). So I sometimes end up being surprised when someone has no knowledge at all about something I've been aware of since I was a small child. Worker bees and ants are all sterile females, for instance, or the Dinosaurs went extinct long before humans showed up, or that they spell some words differently in the UK.

But the example you gave--not knowing anything about Thor or Odin? That would surprise me. I think the Norse gods were mentioned in my European History class in high school at least in passing, and they come up so often in fantasy and historical fiction, not to mention in comics, movies, and in pop culture references, and of course in a very famous opera. It's comparable to not knowing who Hercules or Zeus is.

But it's also educational to be reminded that not everyone grew up in the same culture we did.

I think it's probably safe to assume that someone who is the target audience for your book is likely to know something about Norse history and mythology, however, at least in a pop culture sort of way (though if your Thor resembles the real one and not the comic book version, they may still be confused). And it's rarely a great idea to step outside the story and info dump world building information, even in fantasy that's entirely made up.

The question is, have you written the story in such a way that someone who doesn't know anything about Norse history and culture could still enjoy it? I've been caught up in stories that are set in (or based on) times or places I don't know much about.

Regardless of what any reader knows or doesn't know, one has to have some concept of the intended audience and what a typical member of that audience would know. It isn't practical to target the least knowledgeable potential reader, and sometimes it's nice to toss in an obscure piece of fact in a way that a reader might hold onto it. But I expect any potential audience that I might have to know who Odin, Thor, Heimdall, Loki, Freya, Sif, etc. are, and I would hope that readers have at least as much knowledge of the Ancient Greek religion. That's another hope that probably will be dashed, but I'll keep it for now.

paddismac said:

So how common is "common knowledge"? I'm not asking about my particular case, but rather writing about any subject. How do you distinguish between what is "known" and what requires explanation? (I thought I knew the difference, but the whole Odin/Thor thing proved me wrong!)

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If it were only that simple. I've had this discussion, or one very similar to it, with many people over the last few years. It's true that not all humans share the same knowledge base. Where one person might know more about Aztec culture, another is well versed in football statistics, or movies, or textiles. I doubt we could manage any kind of common knowledge test, and even if we did... there is that other thing that gets in the way: the individual's perspective. To explain this I usually refer back to Aristotle's Theory of Forms... something I would have considered common knowledge but have been proved wrong over and over again. Basically, Aristotle postulated that when it comes down to one human being understanding another human being, we may have to very specifically define objects so that we know we are speaking about the same thing. Image a triangle. We can agree pretty quickly on what a triangle should be and then we can discuss it. Conversely, if I were to mention a tricycle... even though we may be able to agree upon it's basic design... you're memory and experiences with a tricycle may be so radically different than mine that we end up have trouble communicating.

So as much as you'd like to hope we all share some basic set of information, the radical differences in our perceptions of any particular informational subset may be more problematic in communicating a common message than if we never knew the information to begin with. I don't mean to sound like Nietzsche here... but you're going to have to not worry about this point. Write the story. Finish writing the story. Find some beta readers and get it out there. This is the only way to know if you've met the requirements of the model of basic communication!

Roxxsmom said:

The question is, have you written the story in such a way that someone who doesn't know anything about Norse history and culture could still enjoy it? I've been caught up in stories that are set in (or based on) times or places I don't know much about.

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^This.

Lol. I only heard of names of Norse mythological figures because of Thor from the Avengers (who I dislike), but I have never been interested in looking up the actual Norse stuff, so I still don't know anything about Norse gods or whatever.

If I read a book with them, and I was motivated, then I would just go with the flow with the author's interpretation of them, and then look up anything that confuses me. (So far, I haven't read or been interested in books with any Norse or Greek or Roman mythological figures, so I never felt interested in looking up the actual myths.)

Anyway, like other AWer posters have said, there are many people who can guess from context and/or look up anything they don't know about, if they want to.

I just want to chime in again about being a heavy-reader as a kid, and learning at least as much by reading as by what we were taught in school. I was in the encyclopedia age, but it didn't stop me from looking stuff up to figure out more about a reference in a book. My kids are internet-agers but they did LOTS of the same. I think it's cool to have stuff in a book that might be fringe knowledge that encourages further exploration. Especially for the age group you're writing for, Paddi. Cripes, when I read Wee Free Men to my kids I had to go look up what the "chalk" was. And the "downs" (which are really ups, apparently).

buzhidao said:

But often, people can infer from context, find out, or ignore it (unless it is absolutely critical for them to understand in order to move on with the book). That's always what I do when I read something I don't get. Hell, when I was a young teenager, I used to read Bloom County a lot. I was reading the strip maybe ten or more years after it was originally made, and there are a hell of a lot of political and otherwise pop-culturey references in it that were before my time, or at least before a time when I was aware of anything other than the Ninja Turtles and Sesame Street. Know what? I still thought it was funny.

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Oh, this ^! I used to read 'above my grade level' (grown-up books). I was always running across stuff I didn't understand, but I either looked it up (if it looked interesting, or I seemed to need to know it to continue) or just ignored it. It's so cool to come back to books years later and realize what was really going on. At the time, it just added depth - I knew there was something going on, just not 'what'.

King Neptune said:

People who are interested will look it up, if they want to know more, or they will read through and pick it up from your story.

I have been shocked many times by how ignorant educated people are. It probably it safe to assume that the average reader knows little or nothing about what you are writing.

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Yup. I've picked up a ton of information over the years, but couldn't tell you what's 'common knowledge' any more. I suspect it's very little, there are so many sources of information that you can't assume everyone's on the 'same page' so to speak.

paddismac said:

Thanks everybody for weighing in! I appreciate your comments.

I try very hard to constantly gauge the "accessibility" of my stories, and if I put in a reference that I believe only half of my readers will "get", I will bulk it up with a word or two within the context of the story to (hopefully) make things clear.

For example, the very first sentence of Goats references Yggdrasil. Now I'm pretty sure that's a head-scratcher for a lot of people, so the sentence talks about "the branches of Yggdrasil"... and a sentence or two later, just to make sure it's understood, it's referred to as "the mighty tree". I could write on for pages explaining exactly what Yggdrasil is, but all I need to convey is that, first and foremost, it's a tree, and because it has a name, one can assume it's a fairly important tree.

I'm writing for upper middle grade kids, and I guess I can count myself lucky that Rick Riordan has moved from Percy Jackson and the Greeks to Magnus Chase and the Gods of Asgard. Maybe he will have done a lot of the heavy lifting before my books are ready to go out into the world! I can hope, anyway!

And now I'm going to have to go re-watch The Full Monty to see if I can catch a glimpse of Moby Dick. (Oh, that sounded so wrong! )

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I think upper middle grade is a good age for that kind of thing (even without Rick Riordan) - they know they don't know everything, so they're a more open to learning new stuff. And, it's all interesting. How can it not be cool to know who Thursday's named for? It's not like their interests have narrowed and hardened yet. You might be someone's gateway to Norse mythology. Or mythology in general.

ElaineA said:

I just want to chime in again about being a heavy-reader as a kid, and learning at least as much by reading as by what we were taught in school. I was in the encyclopedia age, but it didn't stop me from looking stuff up to figure out more about a reference in a book. My kids are internet-agers but they did LOTS of the same. I think it's cool to have stuff in a book that might be fringe knowledge that encourages further exploration. Especially for the age group you're writing for, Paddi. Cripes, when I read Wee Free Men to my kids I had to go look up what the "chalk" was. And the "downs" (which are really ups, apparently).

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I'm with you, I liked that kind of stuff in books.

Paddismac, I'd suggest writing the book you want to write without much concern about readers not 'getting' the references. Then find a reader, even if not of your target group, whom you absolutely know doesn't know anything about the Norse myths.
Then ask them to read the manuscript with a specific eye to whether a) they understood the references, and b) did it affect their enjoyment and understanding of the story. (Answer their questions later, but let them read it without coaching. With luck, you'll get a sense of how much is clear, and how much just isn't that important.)

There's no way to make sure the reader knows exactly what you're talking about. Missed references are great for reread value, though.

Like, there's this one book where the bad guy was named the Red Menace. His goal was to make everyone ordinary, with himself as the one elite ruler. He's even described as hating capitalism!

The first time I read it, the communism part completely flew over my head.

paddismac said:

This has been such a great discussion guys, thanks!

A lot of this worry is probably just over-thinking on my part. I know that quite a bit of book marketing involves "preaching to the choir". Very few people pick up a book totally ignorant of its content. In my case, the jacket blurb would contain the words Asgard, Odin, Vikings (oh, and goats). The cover might feature a Viking warrior, a pair of ravens, a monstrous wolf (and goats ). So the person who decides to read my book is already familiar with those things or is at least open to learning something about them.

I guess I just often find myself in the trap of wanting to be all things to all people, but hell, if I were actually serious about that, the first thing I'd do is stop writing humor... one of the most subjective and niche things in literature.

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If the Norse gods are a prominent aspect of the book, then there will be definitely be readers who will pick up the book just because of that, and who will be somewhat familiar with the Norse stuff.

Then there will be some readers who, while not familiar with Norse stuff, may still be interested in some of the premise or story, and who would still be willing to learn about the Norse aspects on their own, or just willing to go with the flow of the story, using context to figure out those Norse aspects.

Meanwhile, there may be readers who may not be interested in Norse stuff, but may still like the story, while other readers may not pick up the book at all, etc, etc.

People are varied, so obviously their tastes in stories and content will vary.

I wouldn't worry about it. Just focus on writing an engaging story, and write the best you can.