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regdog
04-07-2016, 05:25 PM
Link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wji-BZ0oCwg&feature=youtu.be) and may I say, :yessmiley:TheWave:

amergina
04-07-2016, 06:02 PM
AW YESSSSSSSSSSSSS.

Gonna be my birthday gift!

Alessandra Kelley
04-07-2016, 07:49 PM
Was that Mon Mothma?

amergina
04-07-2016, 07:59 PM
Yes, that is Mon Mothma!

Alessandra Kelley
04-07-2016, 08:03 PM
Yes, that is Mon Mothma!

Woohoo!

Zoombie
04-07-2016, 08:11 PM
VROOM! PEW PEW PEW BANG BOOM PEW PEW!

EEERRRZOOO VROOOM!

PEW!

mellymel
04-07-2016, 11:30 PM
YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO YIPPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE KI YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cernex
04-08-2016, 04:20 AM
It looks interesting. However, I remain somewhat cynical to it. It seems to me they're trying to hit exactly the same buttons Force Awakens hit before, and while that was all good and dandy (because why fix what isn't broken?), they do need to be careful not to turn the whole thing formulaic.

Still going to see it, tho'.

EDIT: Seriously tho', they REALLY didn't need the nostalgic piano.

Beachgirl
04-08-2016, 04:24 AM
YESSSSSSS!!! I can't wait for December! :hooray:

AW Admin
04-08-2016, 04:47 AM
I'm ridiculously excited.

Matt T.
04-08-2016, 05:50 AM
I had mixed-leaning-towards-positive feelings on the trailer. It just felt like another Star Wars movie (not that that's necessarily a bad thing), and that cheese-tastic line "I REBEL" didn't sit well with me.

That said, I have heard murmurs that one of the characters might be the old EU character Kyle Katarn or someone like him? I would die of happiness if that was the case, as I grew up on the old Jedi Knight video-games and even read the Kyle Katarn novels.

davidjgalloway
04-08-2016, 02:30 PM
I was less mixed-feelings and more excited that everything canon is off-the-table for this set of films. At least for me, everything good about FA was the new stuff; everything bad werethe retreads and destroying the happy ending of ROJ. With that temptation to dip into past characters mostly removed, they might have the freedom to make an interesting film. And, the fact it was described as a "war film" is interesting.

Gilroy Cullen
04-08-2016, 03:25 PM
I am willing to admit, not a SW fan, per say. That said --- CAN'T WAIT TO SEE!!!

(And the net trolls are already out in force, whining about another female lead. Personally, I can't wait to see what she does. About time that the women were given more of a forward role in films.)

kuwisdelu
04-08-2016, 03:53 PM
Looks awesome. Can't wait.


(And the net trolls are already out in force, whining about another female lead. Personally, I can't wait to see what she does. About time that the women were given more of a forward role in films.)

I'm lovin' it.

JimmyB27
04-08-2016, 04:37 PM
(And the net trolls are already out in force, whining about another female lead. Personally, I can't wait to see what she does. About time that the women were given more of a forward role in films.)
Frankly, I am disgusted by it, and I hope it causes this film to tank just as much as the last one did.

evilsapphyre
04-08-2016, 10:00 PM
I'm beyond excited for this film after seeing the trailer yesterday.

I mean, ultimately, when the film takes place is very telling for what the overall plot is going to be, but they still managed to make it look really good.

And the Imperial fangirl in me loved some of the shots in the film.

kuwisdelu
04-08-2016, 10:02 PM
Frankly, I am disgusted by it, and I hope it causes this film to tank just as much as the last one did.

Why?

amergina
04-08-2016, 10:05 PM
Why?
I think he's being factious. :) especially since the last move hardy can be said to have tanked.

RichardGarfinkle
04-08-2016, 10:07 PM
I enjoyed the trailer, but I'm not terribly interested in finding out how many Bothans died to bring us this information.

KMTolan
04-08-2016, 10:16 PM
Regarding that last AT-AT scene, anyone start scrambling around for an ion torpedo or two...dozen?

kuwisdelu
04-08-2016, 10:22 PM
I think he's being factious. :) especially since the last move hardy can be said to have tanked.

I made that sarcasm smiley for a reason dammit! :tongue

kuwisdelu
04-08-2016, 10:24 PM
I enjoyed the trailer, but I'm not terribly interested in finding out how many Bothans died to bring us this information.

I wonder if the Bothans will be based on the Legends material or if they'll be human now.

JimmyB27
04-09-2016, 12:45 AM
Why?


I think he's being facetious. :) especially since the last move hardy can be said to have tanked.


I made that sarcasm smiley for a reason dammit! :tongue

Sorry, I dropped it. :tongue

Found it again now! :sarcasm

Thought the 'tanked' comment made it clear. :)

kuwisdelu
04-09-2016, 12:56 AM
Thought the 'tanked' comment made it clear. :)

You might be surprised how delusional some haters are.

Cyia
04-09-2016, 01:04 AM
Most of the comments I've seen are of the:

Is that Rey's mother?
Oh! She's Rey's mother!
She's got to be Rey's mother!

variety.

mellymel
04-09-2016, 03:25 AM
Funny that some people watched the trailer and got a, "Just another Star Wars movie" vibe from it because when I first watched it, I remember thinking, "This doesn't feel like a traditional Star Wars movie." :Shrug:

mellymel
04-09-2016, 03:41 AM
I am willing to admit, not a SW fan, per say. That said --- CAN'T WAIT TO SEE!!!

(And the net trolls are already out in force, whining about another female lead. Personally, I can't wait to see what she does. About time that the women were given more of a forward role in films.)

And I'm willing to bet that 99.9% of those whining are of the male gender. Sigh.

And...


Sources tell Variety Harrison Ford came away the big winner on Disney and Lucasfilm’s sequel with a paycheck upwards of $10 million and as high as $20 million to reprise his role of Han Solo.

On Monday, the Daily Mail issued a report saying that Ford earned a staggering $25 million to return to the “Star Wars” franchise. A Disney insider tells Variety the story is completely false and way too high but other sources did confirm that the 73-year-old actor earned a substantially larger cut than his co-stars.

Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher took home salaries in the low-seven-figure range, according to sources. Newcomers John Boyega and Daisy Ridley were paid in the low-six-figure range ($100k-$300k).

This can't possibly be true can it? I mean, I get that HF is in the big leagues, but he wouldn't have done it for less? And the actress playing the MAIN character of the film didn't make more than 300K? Could this be? I know how it works with first time actors but this is STAR WARS were talking about. They had to know how successful it was going to be. And Ridley trained like 7 months before filming just to prepare for the role. Don't get me wrong, I'd take 300K in a heartbeat--it's not chump change, but for a role as big as hers and for how much she had to prepare for the role and for the success they knew this film would be I'm just a little taken aback.

katiemac
04-09-2016, 03:58 AM
This can't possibly be true can it? I mean, I get that HF is in the big leagues, but he wouldn't have done it for less? And the actress playing the MAIN character of the film didn't make more than 300K? Could this be? I know how it works with first time actors but this is STAR WARS were talking about. They had to know how successful it was going to be. And Ridley trained like 7 months before filming just to prepare for the role. Don't get me wrong, I'd take 300K in a heartbeat--it's not chump change, but for a role as big as hers and for how much she had to prepare for the role and for the success they knew this film would be I'm just a little taken aback.

As you say, Boyega and Ridley are "new" actors (Boyega's been around a bit), and the truth is Star Wars does more for their careers than they can do for Star Wars. It's entirely likely, however, they cut bigger deals on the backend--take a smaller salary on the film knowing they can recoup on the back end and get bonuses for every box office milestone the movie passes, a cut of box office percentages, etc. Lots of big actors do this. Not to mention recouping money by licensing their likenesses for things like toys and merchandise. And, they could have made smaller deals on the first title with bigger paychecks coming their way on II and III.

As for Ford, he didn't need to return, and he hasn't spoken about Star Wars with a lot of enthusiasm over the last few years. Business is business, so of course his team will make the biggest deal they can for him. His was also one-time, and he had more screen time than Carrie Fisher and Mark Hamil.

Cyia
04-09-2016, 04:09 AM
$300K, if either of them actually landed at the high end of the curve, isn't bad at all. (Jennifer Lawrence scored $500K for The HungerGames, but that was with multiple movies on her resume - one of which was Oscar bait.)

They also get their living expenses paid while they're shooting, plus the usual "daily" money allotted to each cast member, so - after taxes and agent-fees - that's basically cash waiting to be needed when filming is done. Plus, they've got another two films pretty much guranteed.

Zoombie
04-09-2016, 04:15 AM
The thing that excites me about this the most is the fact that...it's movie in the Star Wars universe.

It's not a STAR WARS MOVIE.

Because Star Wars is too big of a universe to let it be as...incestuous as it is, character wise.

And I don't mean literally incestuous. Though it is that. I mean figuratively - as in there are, like, ten important characters in a galaxy spanning civil war.

amergina
04-09-2016, 05:14 AM
I enjoyed the trailer, but I'm not terribly interested in finding out how many Bothans died to bring us this information.

Well, given that the Bothans died to bring plans of the second Death Star... you won't find out in this move anyway. This movie is about stealing the plans for the first Death Star...the ones Princess Leia hid in the memory banks of a certain R2 unit...

kuwisdelu
04-09-2016, 06:40 AM
This movie is about stealing the plans for the first Death Star...the ones Princess Leia hid in the memory banks of a certain R2 unit...

Shhhhhh! Spoilers!!

Roxxsmom
04-09-2016, 06:52 AM
A Disney insider tells Variety the story is completely false and way too high but other sources did confirm that the 73-year-old actor earned a substantially larger cut than his co-stars.


He was in far more scenes than Fisher, or especially Hamil. And he's become a much bigger star in the years following the original trilogy. It's completely unfair, but that seems to be how Hollywood rolls. A small number of actors (and most of them men) seem to remain hot items for decades, so Ford probably demanded a lot more money.

Ford was always the actor who was most squirrely about committing to more SW movies too. One reason they left him frozen in carbonite at the end of episode V was that he hadn't yet signed a contract for episode VI.

I was kind of sad that the imagined happy ending for the main characters (and actual happy ending that was developed in the EU) was scrapped for the sequels, though.

kuwisdelu
04-09-2016, 07:10 AM
I was kind of sad that the imagined happy ending for the main characters (and actual happy ending that was developed in the EU) was scrapped for the sequels, though.

Ah, but we got Kylo Ren in exchange.

Cyia
04-09-2016, 07:10 AM
Too high? I would have thought he'd have drawn double, given the budget and the necessity to have that actor play that role.

He's supposed to feature in the next one, too (likely flashbacks), so dead Han doesn't mean gone-Han. I want to see Lando.

Roxxsmom
04-09-2016, 07:41 AM
Ah, but we got Kylo Ren in exchange.

Young Severus Snape (and Lord Voldemort too)? Yes, that has certain compensations.

mellymel
04-10-2016, 05:25 PM
The thing that excites me about this the most is the fact that...it's movie in the Star Wars universe.

It's not a STAR WARS MOVIE.

Because Star Wars is too big of a universe to let it be as...incestuous as it is, character wise.

And I don't mean literally incestuous. Though it is that. I mean figuratively - as in there are, like, ten important characters in a galaxy spanning civil war.

This. This exactly explains how I feel when I watch the trailer.

Re: Ridley's et al salaries--Ahhh...backend and box office numbers incentives. :Thumbs: Hadn't considered those. I knew they did things like that for pro-atheletes, but didn't realize this occurs in film land as well.

Aggy B.
04-10-2016, 05:49 PM
Almost all actors get royalties off a film. Even the folks I know who land bit roles (one or two lines in a single scene in a movie) get royalties. Those checks for those folks are frequently tiny, but their percentage is obviously very very low. For folks like Ridley and Boyega, they are looking at a much bigger piece of the action. Especially on a film that's pulling in over a billion dollars. With Star Wars you can also figure there is likely income coming in from merchandising - everything from action figures to Kylo Ren on cans of Spaghetti Os.

Also, the Rogue One teaser made me do this: :hooray: And this: :e2woo: And maybe a little of this: :snoopy:

Cyia
04-10-2016, 06:32 PM
Only actors with serious negotiating clout get anything out of the box office. "Back end points," the commonly offered profit share from a film's overall profits, are a standing joke in Hollywood due to standard bookkeeping practices that are designed specifically to keep anyone from sharing those profits. It makes it look like people are offered royalties and the like, but they never see them.

Even movies that make a billion dollars never break even on paper. (See The Order of the Phoenix, which grossed nearly a billion dollas, but showed as almost 200 million in the red.)

And NO ONE gets to touch merchandising, even the creators in some cases.

Google the most infamous case of merchandising "shenanigans," which is Pirates of the Carribbean. The writers of the movie had a merchandizing deal in place to get a profit share on all of the branded character merchandise.

Jack Sparrow was labeled "generic pirate" on the books. They didn't get a dime.

regdog
04-10-2016, 07:48 PM
Peter Jackson famously sued New Line for underpaying him for LOTR

mellymel
04-10-2016, 08:26 PM
It's nice to be schooled on the inner workings of various aspects of the film industry. It's fascinating learning all this stuff.

Rhoda Nightingale
04-10-2016, 09:22 PM
So excited!!!

Agree with the sentiment that it doesn't feel like a 'Star Wars movie,' even as weird as that sounds. It feels like a trailer for one of the videogames--there's a specific objective, and we know how it's supposed to end, but not what's going to happen to these particular characters, and it'll be a fun way to hang out in the Star Wars universe while we're waiting for the next *actual* Star Wars movie to come out.

Aggy B.
04-10-2016, 11:38 PM
Only actors with serious negotiating clout get anything out of the box office. "Back end points," the commonly offered profit share from a film's overall profits, are a standing joke in Hollywood due to standard bookkeeping practices that are designed specifically to keep anyone from sharing those profits. It makes it look like people are offered royalties and the like, but they never see them.

Except that folks do. My friend I mentioned previously? He was in part of a scene in the trainwreck that was the Johnny Depp/Armie Hammer Lone Ranger movie. He does get royalties from it periodically. Very tiny royalties, but still.

Hollywood book keeping is always creative, but, just like in publishing, the language in the contract makes all the difference. Actors can negotiate to get a percentage from gross rather than net. Whether or not they get it is a different story. But the whole "No one makes any money in Hollywood" line is about the same as "Trade publisher always screw their authors." Individual mileage will vary.

/derail

Cyia
04-10-2016, 11:56 PM
Except that folks do. My friend I mentioned previously? He was in part of a scene in the trainwreck that was the Johnny Depp/Armie Hammer Lone Ranger movie. He does get royalties from it periodically. Very tiny royalties, but still.

In that case, you're talking about a flop. The investors have written it off as a loss; there aren't any profits to fight over. No sideways books required.


Actors can negotiate to get a percentage from gross rather than net.

They really, really can't. Not unless you're a major headliner. Gross profits are guarded with rabid dogs and nasty-tempered genies.

There are a couple of exceptions - one was the original Dumb and Dumber, another was Bad Teacher. Both were expected to be total losses, so no one tightened the language. D&D still draws profits for the writers (un-freakin-heard-of), and the deal that Cameron Diaz inked for BT ended up with her making so much money that the actual boilerplate for most movies has changed. (She took a pay cut in exchange for profit points. Since no one expected the movie to go anywhere, she got them. To the tune of upwards of $40 mil.)

LilyJade
04-11-2016, 12:22 AM
Well, given that the Bothans died to bring plans of the second Death Star... you won't find out in this move anyway. This movie is about stealing the plans for the first Death Star...the ones Princess Leia hid in the memory banks of a certain R2 unit...

Thank you for pointing this out. The number of people online I have read that whine about the cast being human because "what about the Bothans?" makes me want to slam my head against a wall. Or, better put, THEIR heads against a wall. Or tie them to a chair and make them watch the originals again. That's a bit less violent.

kuwisdelu
04-11-2016, 12:25 AM
Thank you for pointing this out. The number of people online I have read that whine about the cast being human because "what about the Bothans?" makes me want to slam my head against a wall. Or, better put, THEIR heads against a wall. Or tie them to a chair and make them watch the originals again. That's a bit less violent.

I think our excitement over Mon Mothma threw us off.

LilyJade
04-11-2016, 12:52 AM
I think our excitement over Mon Mothma threw us off.

I mean, if your NOT excited about Mon Mothma then something is just wrong! LMAO

katiemac
04-11-2016, 06:24 AM
Only actors with serious negotiating clout get anything out of the box office. "Back end points," the commonly offered profit share from a film's overall profits, are a standing joke in Hollywood due to standard bookkeeping practices that are designed specifically to keep anyone from sharing those profits. It makes it look like people are offered royalties and the like, but they never see them.

Even movies that make a billion dollars never break even on paper. (See The Order of the Phoenix, which grossed nearly a billion dollas, but showed as almost 200 million in the red.)

And NO ONE gets to touch merchandising, even the creators in some cases.

The same articles that discuss salaries say there are back-end bonuses for the cast once the movie crosses $1 billion. That's obviously an enormous amount money and not reachable for the majority of films, but a good bet when signing on as a newbie to this franchise.

As far as merchandising goes, you can't use someone's likeness to make a toy without that someone's approval. It doesn't necessarily mean a straightforward cut on royalties, but just like everything, use of likeness is part of a contract, and that means money.

Cyia
04-11-2016, 07:32 AM
I mean, if your NOT excited about Mon Mothma then something is just wrong! LMAO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdukWtJwlPU

Skip to the 1:30 mark for "How it Should Have Ended" take on the many dead Bothans. :greenie

phantasy
04-11-2016, 07:51 AM
The clip reminded me of the Hunger Games or Divergent, or any of the YA books with strong, angry female leads. And I'm kind of over that. So as someone who's hardly a fan, it's not drawing me in.

But here's hoping there's more to the movie than that.

ElaineA
10-13-2016, 05:46 PM
Second Trailer is out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC9abcLLQpI). There is an "Indiana Jones" moment (not involving Harrison Ford) that cracked me up.

mellymel
10-16-2016, 04:07 AM
LOVE.

That is all.

robeiae
12-22-2016, 04:42 PM
So...reviews?

Saw it the other day. Good flick. Works as an actual prequel. Doesn't give anything away, doesn't try too hard. But not a mind-blowing great flick.

Albedo
12-22-2016, 04:58 PM
Fun enough, really different in tone to any SW movie before it.

I enjoyed Darth Vader's small scene. He seemed to enjoy terrorising the director in an almost light-hearted way, like he was in a good mood that day. And man, Darth Vader in a good mood is bloody terrifying. Great voice acting by James Earl Jones.

davidjgalloway
12-22-2016, 05:03 PM
Yeah, I'm waiting for that mind-blowing one. I was a bit let-down.

[spoilers]

The trailers were amazing. Really made me want to see it. Disclosure: I'm an original Star Wars fan, saw the 1977 issue right in the theater. But a couple things bothered me:

-Despite Jyn being so featured in the trailers--and talk of heroine-centered story--she didn't get to do that much. Most of the action was Andor's. So what happened to the strong female lead? She got to give the speech and run around with the disc. That was disappointing, especially since there were no other female parts of note.
-Moments of ludicrousness: the switch at the top of the tower that's 50 yards away from the console? The switch that everbody in the firefight is trying to reach? Come ON. And what if the disc you want is on the other side of that storage tower? Because it seemed to me like the only way to know is by the blinking green light. Not a very good system. And these records ONLY exist here, on this dinky tower? Even though it's got a planet-wide force shield, it's still a single tower not well defended (since clearly the rebels can penetrate it with 10-20 soldiers), so that's a stupid place to store all your records. Why not on Coruscant?
-Uncanny valleys: Moff Tarken was 97% good. At moments, you could believe it, but there were too many where you couldn't. Fascinating to see that we're not there yet. Same with Leia--why not just shoot her from the back and let it go? We get the reference.
-Jyn's necklace gets all this setup, and NOTHING pays out.
-The empire has no trouble BLOWING UP the only place that stores the records? Jeez.

The ending was dark, but I love dark, so no issues there. But really, why so many refs to the original trilogy? It's fun, but doesn't make a lot of sense. I completely was confused seeing R2 and Threepio--thinking, aren't they supposed to be on Leia's ship already? It seemed jarring. Same with Walrus Man--c'mon, so I guess he was just leaving and didn't get vaporized like everyone else in the city?

Remember, this is the film that they originally said would have NO characters from the other films. Ha. I'd like to see them get really daring and do that for once. It's a galaxy, dammit. Why, then, does it seem like it has the population of a soap opera?

Alan Tudyk is awesome, tho :)

Marlys
12-22-2016, 06:25 PM
It's a galaxy, dammit. Why, then, does it seem like it has the population of a soap opera?



At least soap operas have women. I counted maybe 10 in the entire film, vs. dozens/hundreds of men.

davidjgalloway
12-22-2016, 06:45 PM
At least soap operas have women.

Good point :) Maybe I should have said, "small theater company?"

angeliz2k
12-22-2016, 09:13 PM
davidjgalloway, I noticed, in the back of my mind, all the things you noted. They're pretty minor, though, all things considered. And as someone pointed out to me, at least there was a handrail on that improbably high, narrow walkway, unlike in, say, The Force Awakens, lol. I enjoyed the movie, but I wasn't blown away. I thought TFA had more heart to it, and the characters were more solid and memorable in TFA. Jyn wasn't the only one without too much to do. The movie was, let's face it, a series of McGuffins and small obstacles, and we already knew the outcome: they succeed in getting the plans to the Rebellion. We could also easily guess that Jyn and Friends wouldn't make it out alive, because their characters don't appear elsewhere in the Star Wars universe. Maybe that's why I couldn't get into it quite as much as I would have liked.

davidjgalloway
12-22-2016, 10:30 PM
Angeliz2k, I see that. But as for TFA, there too it seems they are terrified of leaving the originals behind. For me, everything good in TFA was the new stuff. The new characters were FANTASTIC, but taking the old favs that we hoped would live happily ever after and trashing their fates? Ugh. How depressing.

I agree that since you knew they were going to get the plans, there might be less tension. But really, the final outcome is known (or guessable) in most films. It shouldn't be an excuse for a lackluster movie.

Look, Darth Vader cutting down rebel troops really makes no sense as a part of this film, but it's geeky fun (if disturbing--who are we cheering for??), so I don't think anyone's going to complain. But the last scenes of trying to get the plans sent could have been smarter, without changing the whole structure (though that has its issues, too).

The leads here don't get the chance to connect, and that's not the actors' fault, I think--the script is not giving them room. (Just remember how quickly Leia and Han get to carping at each other in ANH--it's instantaneous, and gives much of ESB its arc). Another beef: for an intelligence officer, Andor is pretty silly when he goes to "take a look" and tries to keep anyone from realizing he's planning to assassinate Erso.

Toothpaste
12-22-2016, 11:18 PM
I enjoyed it but generally agree with everyone re: female representation and the lack of real character development. To me the latter is frustrating as this film was modelled on the classic band of brothers style war films. We never really got to know the main team. At all. We never got a scene of them drinking or having fun or whatever and bonding. We learned nothing of their backstories except for Jyn. We never really knew anything about them. I still don't know what the relationship is between the blind monk and his caretaker. Are they related? Are they lovers? Are they BFFs? No clue.

I needed to care more about the team in order to care about the ending. But I didn't. It felt like the producers were more interested in telling the story than letting the characters tell the story.

But that being said, I thought the battle scenes were AMAZING. The world building was glorious. Loved that we got to see a story set in that universe that took a different path, that wasn't as focused on the Force. The acting was strong across the board. And Alan Tudyk, in person or CGI, always makes me smile.

DavidBrett
12-23-2016, 02:59 AM
I enjoyed it but generally agree with everyone re: female representation and the lack of real character development. To me the latter is frustrating as this film was modelled on the classic band of brothers style war films. We never really got to know the main team. At all. We never got a scene of them drinking or having fun or whatever and bonding. We learned nothing of their backstories except for Jyn. We never really knew anything about them. I still don't know what the relationship is between the blind monk and his caretaker. Are they related? Are they lovers? Are they BFFs? No clue.

I needed to care more about the team in order to care about the ending. But I didn't. It felt like the producers were more interested in telling the story than letting the characters tell the story.

But that being said, I thought the battle scenes were AMAZING. The world building was glorious. Loved that we got to see a story set in that universe that took a different path, that wasn't as focused on the Force. The acting was strong across the board. And Alan Tudyk, in person or CGI, always makes me smile.

I thought Cassian had a fair bit of character development, going from the ruthless commando (where he killed that informant in order to easier escape) with a secret agenda to a more compassionate soldier who didn't blindly follow orders. He also mentioned how he's been in the rebellion since he was six after losing everything, which shows why he was a hardened, unquestioning soldier before Jyn came into his life and made him question his morals.

As for Chirrut Imwe (Donnie Yen's blind monk) and his partner, Baze Malbus, they were both guardians of the Jedi Temple who had been forced into slumming it since Order 66 wiped out the Jedi and left the temple destroyed and being mined by the Empire. Despite these tragedies and hardships, Chirrut's faith in the Force never waived and he had the utmost confidence that all would right itself in the end. Baze, on the other hand, has all but given up hope in the Force (not surprising, when you see something you dedicated your entire life to being knocked down with little resistance), and is only dedicated to his lasting camaraderie with Chirrut which - through the will of the Force - takes him on this personal journey of reaffirmation that the Empire isn't invincible, that hope still exists and that the Force is still strong.

But I agree overall with what you said, the focus could've been on the team a bit more than just plowing ahead with the story. I feel the movie-makers felt that SW fans already knew the team's ultimate fate, and that any more character development would be superfluous, which is a shame. I, for one, would liked to have known how Cassian came across K-2SO and managed to reprogram him without being captured or killed. Heck, it would probably go further back than kid Jyn, but I would've loved to see the Jedha temple fall to the might of the Empire, with Chirrut and Baze narrowly escaping with their lives, possibly also how Chirrut lost his sight. You know, little things that would make us care more for these characters rather than treating them like slightly-diverse tag-along buddies.

That being said... holy HECK, was it a visually stunning and visceral war movie (the kind of war movie Star Wars needs more of, if you ask me (I loved the Clone Wars series because, unlike the space-opera-fantasy of the main movies, it showed the more gritty realities of war). "Saving Private Ryan in Space" as one of my friends called it. And yes, K-2SO (Tudyuk) stole the show, with the duo of Chirrut and Baze a close second :)

CrastersBabies
12-23-2016, 03:34 AM
I'm personally a bit "meh" about the whole "STRONG WIMMINS" label as meaning a woman has to physically kick ass.

All.
The.
Time.

I don't care if a female lead is "strong." I care if she's smart, given thoughtful considerations, written authentically and not some awful tropey cliche. She had emotional impact, inspired a group of men to assist her in getting the job done (when the fractured rebel groups initially just shrugged and pussy-footed around stuff).

Jyn was accepted based on what she could offer, not because she was/was not male or female. She was a person. She had a little character development, but not a great deal. Nobody really did. We had to learn about these characters in a short amount of time and engage/get to appreciate them very quickly. The writing could have been more efficient in a way. The Force Awakens did this very well, I think, and in almost no time with Rey and Finn and other supporting characters.

While I do agree that character development was not the best, it's Star Wars. I saw almost no character development in the first prequels (spanning all three) now that I think about it. Jyn was a good female character. She didn't need to be alpha-female or dominate physically. She was the right person for the job and believable in that role.

Toothpaste
12-23-2016, 05:17 AM
Crasters - I know that at least I have no issue with Jyn not kicking butt (though she did a fair bit) and not being physically strong. I actually had no issue really with the character at all, it was one of the most well rounded and I understood her motivations best of them all. When it comes to the question of women in this film, my issue was with the lack of women in general in the film. After JJ had done such a good job getting gender parity into crowd scenes etc in TFA it was an actual shock to see so few women anywhere in the film except for one or two here or there.

David - see the thing is, while I knew that about Cassian, I didn't find I had the time to really process it and truly care. It was almost more like exposition than character development. But it's true, at least he had an arc of some kind. However I had no idea about any of that stuff about the two temple guardians. I knew that the blind monk was one, but I had no idea the other dude was. I had no idea he had lost faith in the force, about any of that. I get that people learn these things through other means these days but I didn't see it in the film. And if it WAS in the film it wasn't effectively communicated to me. The thing is, it being Star Wars I am sure that there is an epic backstory for everyone and it will be there in online forums and the novelisation and special features in the Bluray. But I want to see it in the film itself. I want to really care. Especially because of the ending.

Which. . . I know you also basically just said but I just wanted to say again :)

Albedo
12-23-2016, 05:45 AM
Are the characters originally from a novel, or something?

Toothpaste
12-23-2016, 05:54 AM
I don't think so. But the novelisation of the film just came out and usually those books have way more information about characters, world building, plot etc than the films.

Albedo
12-23-2016, 06:38 AM
I don't think so. But the novelisation of the film just came out and usually those books have way more information about characters, world building, plot etc than the films.
Ah. Yeah, it's a problem if not enough of that extra material makes it into the movie that we have any idea who the secondary characters are. This was mainly an issue with Sgt Backup: at least it was clear that his BFF was some sort of sub-Jedi, that Riz Ahmed was a defector, that the droid and the agent had a History. The guy with the gun had no development at all.

Alessandra Kelley
12-24-2016, 07:25 AM
Tarkin made my skin crawl.

I think it was something about his facial movements, maybe how constant and preternaturally fast and smooth they were, never really pausing, never giving any sense of him actually stilling or looking at anything or thinking about it. He never as far as I can recall looked down or sideways or even flicked a glance anywhere. (I'm not sure, because I've only seen the film once and obviously I couldn't pause it.) Tarkin looked to me like a very good computer game sprite, the moving parts writhing the way computer models writhe but not really convincing as a human in a human context.

I also was excruciatingly aware of just how badly men outnumbered women in all aspects of this film, to the point where I whooped with joy and relief the first time an actual woman fighter pilot was revealed, more than an hour in.

Couldn't at least some little minority percentage -- even the notorious 17%? -- of Jen's ragtag band of volunteers have been female? Even one or two out of that couple of dozen? (My kids tell me they think there was a woman amongst all those men, but if there was I missed her.)

I did find the battle scenes beautifully done and the worlds interestingly realized, and I enjoyed the movie and the craft of it.

Jade Rothwell
12-24-2016, 07:57 AM
I actually really liked it. But. HIGHLIGHT FOR SPOILERS JUST IN CASE WHY DID THEY KILL CURMUDGEON ROBOT AND BLIND MONK. I LOVED THEM. Broke my heart. I get why they did it, for continuity's sake, but still. I feel like it made no sense for the monk to be in tune with the force, to the point of being able to reach the switch and basically be able to see despite being blind, but not in tune enough to not get shot. His connection to the force wouldn't just stop all of a sudden. Besides, they could have easily justified him not being in the future movies. The rebellion is big by that point. It would be easy to justify him not being shown. Or maybe he retired somewhere after the trauma of Rogue One. Either way, he didn't need that fate. Not cool

davidjgalloway
12-24-2016, 05:47 PM
I don't think anyone has to die for continuity. It's a big galaxy, again. They could have been off fighting somewhere else at any point between ANH and ESB and it wouldn't matter. Like you say, off and retired works just as well. Sure, if the rebellion consists of 12 people you'd have a problem, but there are clearly ranks and ranks of not only principals, but support troops, crews, technicians, etc. who are there, not to mention spies presumably embedded in the Imperial ranks.

Maybe they did this in the novels, but that would be an interesting arc--an imperial spy in the rebellion. You'd think they'd try that. Since the only thing distinguishing the two is MINDSET, it would be easy to do on the surface in that it doesn't involve having to pass as another species or linguistic group.

As for the force "stopping," why couldn't it be that his death is the will of the force? That was his appointed time.

Jade Rothwell
12-25-2016, 01:19 AM
As for the force "stopping," why couldn't it be that his death is the will of the force? That was his appointed time.

That's possible.

Sage
12-25-2016, 08:28 AM
My feeling was that he wasn't a master of the force. Not a Jedi. He had to build up his connection to the force with the chant. And I imagine that at the point of reaching the switch and doing what he had to, he might have redirected some of that focus that allowed him to get to that point.

I liked that everyone died, and I hadn't made the assumption that they all would, but there was a moment after several people had where I suddenly said, "You know, they could legitimately kill off every character we've been introduced to in this movie."

My biggest problem, other than how awful Vader's helmet was, was the male-to-female ratio, particularly in the rebels. When the rebels who went against the alliance's decision joined Jyn & Cassion & co., it struck me immediately that I didn't see any females in the group. It says to me, "Sure, we have a kick-ass female lead, but the male fighter is still the norm, and we have to really think about it to have even one girl on the team."

davidjgalloway
12-25-2016, 08:29 PM
My biggest problem, other than how awful Vader's helmet was, was the male-to-female ratio, particularly in the rebels. When the rebels who went against the alliance's decision joined Jyn & Cassion & co., it struck me immediately that I didn't see any females in the group. It says to me, "Sure, we have a kick-ass female lead, but the male fighter is still the norm, and we have to really think about it to have even one girl on the team."

Yeah. What if all the stupid old men in the rebellion were like, "Nah, too risky," and then a bunch of female pilots and Mon Mothma say, "nope, we're going, because your option means we just get vaporized." That would be fun. Show that the women know what's going on and the men are stupid.

It's especially egregious because most of the troops were nameless, so it WOULD HAVE COST THEM NOTHING to put in at least half a dozen boss female fighters. Where's Vasquez when you need her??

Marlys
12-25-2016, 09:06 PM
They didn't even bother putting a token female in the group of scientists working with Galen on the Death Star. I guess 'cause girls, you know, can't do science and stuff.

I think that grated especially because it's so telling of the way Hollywood thinks. "A group of scientists" = "a group of men." Period.

Alessandra Kelley
12-25-2016, 09:27 PM
Yeah. What if all the stupid old men in the rebellion were like, "Nah, too risky," and then a bunch of female pilots and Mon Mothma say, "nope, we're going, because your option means we just get vaporized." That would be fun. Show that the women know what's going on and the men are stupid.

It's especially egregious because most of the troops were nameless, so it WOULD HAVE COST THEM NOTHING to put in at least half a dozen boss female fighters. Where's Vasquez when you need her??


They didn't even bother putting a token female in the group of scientists working with Galen on the Death Star. I guess 'cause girls, you know, can't do science and stuff.

I think that grated especially because it's so telling of the way Hollywood thinks. "A group of scientists" = "a group of men." Period.

It was really weird, after they did such a good job on "The Force Awakens", to see such an overwhelming return to the dismal gender ratios of the old original trilogy movies in "Rogue One".

davidjgalloway
12-25-2016, 09:48 PM
Yes, and scientists--why were they all so old (except Galen)? Was it supposed to make use feel sad for characters we didn't know? Or something else? They were like dictionary entries under "doddering."

CrastersBabies
12-26-2016, 12:45 PM
Crasters - I know that at least I have no issue with Jyn not kicking butt (though she did a fair bit) and not being physically strong. I actually had no issue really with the character at all, it was one of the most well rounded and I understood her motivations best of them all. When it comes to the question of women in this film, my issue was with the lack of women in general in the film. After JJ had done such a good job getting gender parity into crowd scenes etc in TFA it was an actual shock to see so few women anywhere in the film except for one or two here or there.

YES! I remember that scene where Jyn had been told by the rebel "leaders," that the mission was a bust--but here comes Cassian with "all these awesome folks who are going to go along anyway!"

Me: (in my head) "Wow, they are literally all dudes. All of them."

And upon second viewing, I looked really closely, thinking that maybe I missed a woman who was kind of lurking in in the background, or had super short hair, or a helm on. Nope. All dudes. Every one of them. And I kind of scolded myself for thinking that. But the more I ponder it, the more I realize there were very few women. SW seems to have a pattern of having that ONE fully-realized, multi-dimensional female character.

In IV-VI, it was Leia.
I-III, it was Padme.
VII is Rey (though Phasma was in there, she seemed quite easily captured/overtaken)

I mean, I'm glad we get Rey and Jyn because they rock so hard. Gender isn't even brought into the discussion in the story itself: e.g., "OmgZ, you are a girl and you are good at fighting, WHOAH." They're just characters. People.

But, yeah.... I mean, a wide, gigantic galaxy full of people who could be great female characters, and we pretty much get one important one per movie.

LittlePinto
12-26-2016, 09:33 PM
Who wants to bet the Han Solo movie will have lots of poorly realized and/or background female characters?

Zoombie
12-26-2016, 10:20 PM
This is why I've started making 70% of my characters female on principle.

davidjgalloway
12-27-2016, 12:42 AM
Who wants to bet the Han Solo movie will have lots of poorly realized and/or background female characters?

Ugh. If it turns into "Han Solo, Intergalactic Playboy," I may puke.

RichardGarfinkle
12-30-2016, 08:35 PM
I enjoyed it, but I wouldn't see it again.

Along with the representation problems, I had a batch of writing problems with this movie.

<Spoilers>
The last part, the whole data retrieval and transmission part, the part that led to the TPK, that was a pure artificial construct. The entire thing played out like a video game puzzle that had a forced solution.



And its central element: the planetwide shield actually messes up the entire plot of the series.



1. If they could put a fighter proof shield around a planet, they could have put one around the Deathstar messing up parts 4-6.

2. If they could put a fighter proof shield around a planet, they could have put one around the Starkiller messing up part 7.



Beyond this, the characters were not given enough development time. They were interesting in seeing what could be done with them in a follow up series. In this movie they were only sketched out. They needed more time. The movie might have given them that time, but only at the cost of some of the battle scenes. The movie was clearly mostly for those scenes.



Finally, Tarkin used the Deathstar to destroy the Imperial Archives including all their tech and battle plans. Seriously, in that one act he did more to aid the rebellion than anyone ever (except for Darth Vader killing the Emperor).
</Spoilers>

Zoombie
12-30-2016, 08:38 PM
Except aren't planetary shields a part of the mythos from Empire Strikes Back?

The difference between the hoth shield and the Beaches-Of-Normandy-Planet shields seems to be more an issue of resources and scale.

RichardGarfinkle
12-30-2016, 08:42 PM
Except aren't planetary shields a part of the mythos from Empire Strikes Back?

The difference between the hoth shield and the Beaches-Of-Normandy-Planet shields seems to be more an issue of resources and scale.

A shield that can cover the entire planet and prevent any ship from coming in isn't the same as a local base shield like on Hoth. They covered the entire planet in Rogue One, that's something that we haven't seen and as I said messes up movies 4,6, and 7 at the minimum.

Zoombie
12-30-2016, 08:48 PM
Yeah, it does seem to be a difference in scale.

Also, something that bugs me?

The ending of Rogue One kinda makes Leia look like a total moron. Who would EVER believe she was on a diplomatic mission? They literally just watched her ship fly away from the fight.

RichardGarfinkle
12-30-2016, 08:59 PM
Good point.

Sage
12-30-2016, 09:16 PM
Leia's ship wasn't at the fight. Another ship was at the fight and the guys on it escaped and flew to her ship, where they gave her the information. That was actually my first thought when DV was walking through the ship and the guys were trying to pass on the info within the ship. "Why is Leia's ship here? I can't believe this scene comes immediately after this battle." And then the final guys with the info jettisoned from the ship and left DV behind, and I realized that I had been mistaken.

Zoombie
12-30-2016, 09:18 PM
I could have sworn Leia's ship was the ship in the bigger ship...

RichardGarfinkle
12-30-2016, 09:20 PM
Leia's ship wasn't at the fight. Another ship was at the fight and the guys on it escaped and flew to her ship, where they gave her the information. That was actually my first thought when DV was walking through the ship and the guys were trying to pass on the info within the ship. "Why is Leia's ship here? I can't believe this scene comes immediately after this battle." And then the final guys with the info jettisoned from the ship and left DV behind, and I realized that I had been mistaken.


That's not how it plays out in Rogue One. Unless, I'm misremembering, Leia's ship is attached to one of the ships in the battle and detaches at the last moment, jumping to hyperspace pursued by Vader.

Sage
12-30-2016, 09:36 PM
Hmm. I admit that I don't know what Leia's ship at the beginning Ep 4 looks like, so I wouldn't recognize if an identical ship was what left the ship DV was invading, but my interpretation was that just like we don't have to see every bit of travel between two scenes in a book, the movie skipped the point where the escaping rebels flew to Leia's ship, docked, and entered the new ship to hand someone the information to be brought to Leia. Perhaps it was meant to be the ship Leia is caught on that disengaged from the one overlooking the battle, Leia overseeing it and waiting for the info right above, then getting onto a smaller ship to escape, but I find that much clunkier than that the guys got in an escape pod and used it to meet with the contact who was waiting for the information far from the action where she could be killed as part of the battle that's getting her the information.

If she was on that ship, though, and then claimed to be on a diplomatic mission after getting caught, I don't think this makes her particularly stupid. It's as plausible a story as any other. We're on a diplomatic mission. You got the wrong ship. Or maybe you saw our ship because we were on a diplomatic mission and saw this big battle going on and stayed above the battle to record what's going on for any diplomats we're meeting with. No matter what she says, she knows he's not actually going to buy the "diplomatic mission" bit. But you try it anyway.

MttStrn
12-30-2016, 10:59 PM
A shield that can cover the entire planet and prevent any ship from coming in isn't the same as a local base shield like on Hoth. They covered the entire planet in Rogue One, that's something that we haven't seen and as I said messes up movies 4,6, and 7 at the minimum.

It doesn't screw anything up. If anything, it makes sense. In Empire, a ragtag rebellion has a defense shield that covers a portion of the planet. It would seem to reason that a Galactic Empire would have one powerful enough for the whole planet.

RichardGarfinkle
12-30-2016, 11:23 PM
It doesn't screw anything up. If anything, it makes sense. In Empire, a ragtag rebellion has a defense shield that covers a portion of the planet. It would seem to reason that a Galactic Empire would have one powerful enough for the whole planet.


Please see the whole of my comment. If they have this then it should be around the Deathstar in episode 4 and the Starkiller planet in episode 7.

MttStrn
12-30-2016, 11:37 PM
I did see your whole comment. The fact that it is not around the first Death Star but they use a shield generator from a moon for the second Death Star indicates that this would only work near or around a planet. In The Force Awakens, Starkiller Base does (or did) have defense shields. They had to approach at light speed to get through them and then get Captain Phasma to deactivate them.

Zoombie
12-31-2016, 12:25 AM
Part of the issue, I think, is that Star Wars is inconsistant as to the visualization of shields.

For example, both the Milenium Falcon AND X-Wings AND Star Destroyers all have deflector screens, but they're invisible. Even when shot, the effects don't make it very clear what is going on.

See, I have an unfair bit of advantage. I have the EXTREMELY AWESOME series of Fantasy Flight Game tabletop RPGs: Force and Destiny, Age of Rebellion and Edge of the Empire!

Each one has STATS for these ships, and has rules for deflector screens! Basically, each deflector screen you have increases the difficulty of landing a damaging shot and increases the general risk and danger of actually attacking a ship. They don't stop damage, like armor, but rather make taking shots more difficult.

I can see why that can be hard to reflect visually. Doubly so in highly paced dogfights.

amergina
12-31-2016, 09:24 AM
I was thinking about why the ending didn't bother me.

I think it's because this was the first exchange between Vader and Leia in A New Hope:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-7rXTB5H_o

Clearly, they both know what's up.

Zoombie
12-31-2016, 10:21 AM
Hmm...

True.

I think I was just looking for nits to pick cause I saw it with my GF, and she's not acutally a huge fan of Star Wars and we had a great time nitting and picking after the movie. Though, we did still enjoy it immensely!

Roxxsmom
12-31-2016, 08:59 PM
I liked the movie, ending and all. It made sense, as far as I was concerned.

My main beefs (aside from the ongoing pointlessness of the Empire's battle armor, except for it being a plot device that allows rebels to infiltrate enemy bases that somehow never have their authorized personnel microchipped or anything) were 1. The stereotypical Asian character with Kung Fu force moves, and 2. the fact that (even though the protagonist was female), the rest of the main characters were male (she was a smurfette (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSmurfettePrinciple)), and there were still few women with support roles in the background.

The movie really didn't pass the Bechdel test, aside from the bit at the beginning where her mom was telling her to run. Once I saw the data about less than 30% of speaking roles in movies going to female actors overall, I can't unsee it. I notice it, and it bugs me (and it was a thing in every single trailer they showed in the theater prior to the beginning of the movie also). Would it kill them to make a movie where 50% of the speaking roles go to women?

nahalwi
01-03-2017, 01:22 AM
Part of the issue, I think, is that Star Wars is inconsistant as to the visualization of shields.

For example, both the Milenium Falcon AND X-Wings AND Star Destroyers all have deflector screens, but they're invisible. Even when shot, the effects don't make it very clear what is going on.

See, I have an unfair bit of advantage. I have the EXTREMELY AWESOME series of Fantasy Flight Game tabletop RPGs: Force and Destiny, Age of Rebellion and Edge of the Empire!

Each one has STATS for these ships, and has rules for deflector screens! Basically, each deflector screen you have increases the difficulty of landing a damaging shot and increases the general risk and danger of actually attacking a ship. They don't stop damage, like armor, but rather make taking shots more difficult.

I can see why that can be hard to reflect visually. Doubly so in highly paced dogfights.

Part of this actually has been thrown out the window with the acquisition from Disney. They announced they were going to be basically making a whole new canon and all of the old rpg's and books, etc weren't considered canon anymore due to the scattered writings. Even a lot of lore would get thrown in here and there just because it sounded cool at the time, not because it was planned or part of a larger scheme. At the moment, just the movies, the clone war animated show, and the new rebels show are canon. Everything else is AU.

I really enjoyed it. We went out, we had a great time at the movies. All my Star Wars loving families who nitpick over the lore and have read every single book out there, still loved it.

I would love to see more women, but I am used to Tolkien-verse male-dominated and the fact they are focusing on more women main characters at the very least I think is a nice change. Even the marketing has been getting tons of slack for all the male-dominance following The Force Awakens, where I couldn't find any girl attire for my daughter. A year later, I can find a ton. So I think they are realizing how important it is. Largely, money. Disney knows how to make money.

http://www.slashfilm.com/new-star-wars-canon-timeline/ (http://www.slashfilm.com/new-star-wars-canon-timeline/)

Zoombie
01-03-2017, 08:35 AM
Actually, Force and Destiny, Edge of the Empire and Age of Rebellion?

All of them were made after Disney took over. They're all in cannon!

Also, through the F&D RPG books, Kotor 1 and 2 and ST:TOR are all cannonical.

Which means that the Star Wars cannonical thing with the most female main characters is still Knights of the Old Republic...if...you play as a female main character.

nahalwi
01-03-2017, 06:42 PM
I've heard a few discussions on some of those, where some of it is cannon, but other parts in it are 'open to interpretation' more like lore until it's clarified. So, really, I don't know what to think! Star Wars is so all over the place. But...at least it's really fun? :D

nahalwi
01-03-2017, 07:16 PM
I'll stop derailing after this.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-12-15/why-disney-blew-up-more-than-30-years-of-star-wars-canon

I'm curious to see how episode 8 does and other stand-alones. The fact this stand-alone has been so successful is a nice push that it can do it and do it well. Although with the episodic movies, part of me kind of wishes they made them all at the same time under the same people.

As far as the development of the characters, I didn't mind that they weren't built up quite as much. The point of the movie was more...battle, and leading to this important event more than getting into the deep life of these characters. And while Jyn came out in more of a leadership role by the end, they all had to to their parts for it to happen, and I loved that about the story. It wasn't about them, it was about the end result that they sacrificed for. It was noticeable with the lack of female presence but I felt it fit the story. Also worth it for the Chirrut/Baze moment towards the end.

Frankie007
01-03-2017, 10:35 PM
Please see the whole of my comment. If they have this then it should be around the Deathstar in episode 4 and the Starkiller planet in episode 7.

this doesn't really mess up anything. i mean.... i bet they thought that the Deathstar was infallible...much like how they thought Titantic was unsinkable...
besides...there was only really ONE eeny weeny part of the Deathstar that was vulnerable. so shooting and blowing up any other part of it wouldn't have brought it down like Luke did when he used the force to shoot two lasers in one specific spot.

LOG
01-08-2017, 07:04 AM
I watched 4 movies over the new year weekend. I would put this film at 2nd best after Moana. The climax is awesome, but the rest of the movie is pretty meh. And the characters aren't all that developed due to . . . reasons that you know if you've seen the film, and the number of them present.