Ancient Greece

ManInBlack · Mar 29, 2016

As much as I'm doing my own research on the side, I'm afraid that things I'm thinking about now (as I write the first draft) will be more and more added in as late as a third or fourth draft is I don't find an expert source, and I don't want to hold off until I'm actually working with grad students to try and find an expert on Ancient Greek culture to try and publish this. The story I'm writing is set in the modern day but with a lot of allusions (the Greek Gods are the villain of the piece) and as such I've been trying to include the relevant symbolism, and generally just a lot of questions about different aspects of the culture and the mythology. (I recently found myself yelling at Google for not giving me useful answers to "ancient Greek version of chivalry".)

Anybody on here with the appropriate expertise want to help me out as I come up with questions?

Hoplite · Mar 29, 2016

Hi MIB! I'll preface with saying I'm not an expert, just a fan of ancient Greece and all things ancient-world. You may try posting a thread over in the Historical Writing section, as you might get your target audience-helpers over there.

Otherwise I'd recommend checking out "Handbook to Life in Ancient Greece". It focuses on a lot of the day-to-day things and gives a great general overview without going into nitty details, if that's something useful.

King Neptune · Mar 29, 2016

I don't believe that there was anything quite like chivalry in ancient Greek culture. There were a number of characteristics that were considered good or desirable, but most of chivalry was connected with respect toward woman, and the ancient Greeks didn't seem to have much respect of women. Women were kept in the women's part of the house and only went out with guards (if they could afford them); Pericles' wife was a notable exception. Is there a particular aspect of chivalry that you want to use? There were activities that were associated with certain Gods or Goddesses, and one of those might serve.

mirandashell · Mar 29, 2016

I think the 'going out with guards' only applied to rich women.

King Neptune · Mar 29, 2016

mirandashell said:
I think the 'going out with guards' only applied to rich women.

That is true.

ManInBlack · Mar 29, 2016

Thanks for the interest, guys.

Neptune - the reason I was searching for an equivalent to chivalry is that I wanted to write Athena as close to a traditional Medieval knight as historical accuracy would allow (for instance, what a sense of honorable combat would be). This was related to the fact that she challenges somebody to a duel and gets outraged when somebody interferes.

mirandashell · Mar 29, 2016

Errmmmm..... I'm no expert on the Ancient Greeks but the culture and beliefs of 5th Century Athens was part of my philosophy degree.

TBH, you need to lose the idea of chivalry, esp the Medi variety, cos it really doesn't fit with how the Greeks saw their gods. Athena is a god of military victory and of wisdom. She is a strong goddess, the daughter of Zeus, and she doesn't really do duels.

I think if you carry on down that path, your book is going to hit a few walls.

How much research have you done on the Greek Pantheon?

mirandashell · Mar 29, 2016

And the Greek idea of honourable combat was utterly different to the European Medi idea of it. Read the Illiad, it will give you a much better idea.

ManInBlack · Mar 29, 2016

As far as research on the Greek pantheon, it's been a minor hobby of mine for years, but no thorough research. Generally if I intend to use someone outside of the best known gods I tend to Google them and read 3-4 sources before incorporating them into a chapter. I do have a much greater amount of research planned, however (originally they were intended to be more window dressing to generic goons and monsters, but I felt after some reflection that just wasn't an interesting story), including the fact that I recently downloaded the Iliad and the Odyssey for Kindle and plan to borrow all of Rick Riordan's books from my sister, as well as looking into less obvious sources as I get farther into the process. Also, I intend to rewatch Jason and the Argonauts, because why would I ever miss an opportunity to buy more Harryhausen?

mirandashell · Mar 29, 2016

Whose translations have you bought?

They are both great reads and will give you a good insight into how the Greeks saw war and honour and all that stuff.

And yeah, you can never have too much Harryhausen.

ManInBlack · Mar 29, 2016

According to Amazon (I say this because the name looks suspect and it claims to have been converted by a community of volunteers):
Edward George Geoffrey Smith Stanley Derby
and Alexander Pope.

AW Admin · Mar 29, 2016

There are some really crappy translations that are public domain now but are bowdlerized for a Victorian sensibility.

There are a number of affordable modern translations of the Illiad and the Odyssey. Back in the day, I used Lattimore's; I still like it, but I would suggest Fagels today.

Here's a good review comparing modern Illiad translations:

http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/englishing-the-iliad-grading-four-rival-translations

I'd also look for a used copy or library with Morford, Mark P.O. and Robert J. Lenardon and Michael Sham. Classical Mythology. OUP. Currently at the ninth edition, but honestly, older ones are fine.

http://global.oup.com/us/companion.websites/9780195397703/book/

And look at various artifacts and how and why and where and who used them:

https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/wmna/hd_wmna.htm

And this site doesn't suck:

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/ancientgreece.htm

And

Browse Perseus, a Classical digital library site with lots of resources, especially, look at the art and architecture:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/

And

http://www.stoa.org/diotima/

King Neptune · Mar 29, 2016

I don't know where you want your story to go, but there is trouble getting the Greek Gods and Goddesses require fair play and similar. They would enforce an oath, if that helps. The Dragon of the Ishtar Gate by L. Sprague de Camp comes to mind. The main character was a Persian of the lower nobility amd the secondary character was a Greek Philosopher. One thing the book did was contrast the cultures. The Persian would have had a chivalric fight, while the Greek would have used anything he could, but he was not a warrior, so that was fine. The Persian was of the Mithric mystery, and that was another set of differences. That's just another place you might read for someone else's attempt at something similar.

Mystery cults were fairly common in ancient times, but no one knows how common, and putting one in might be an excellent plot device.

ManInBlack · Mar 29, 2016

That's a lot of resources. I got my copies of the ebooks for free with a "public domain" label (not sure what the value in selling a PD book for free on Amazon is, but whatever), so I'll definitely check out the translation comparisons to make sure I'm not reading something useless to me.

mirandashell · Mar 29, 2016

You probably already know this but just to reiterate, Ancient Greece wasn't one culture, it was lots. Athens was different to Sparta which was different to Crete and so on and so on. So their views and beliefs about gods would be different as well. And of course, the cultures changed over time as all cultures do. So I guess how much detail you put in to your depiction of Athene will depend on how 'real' you want her to be.

ManInBlack · Mar 29, 2016

I'm aware of there being multiple states, but the impression I've always been led to is that they had the same general ideas as to who the gods were, etc. I've never seen any article or book that detailed Spartan myth vs Athenian myth (the two being the most heavily discussed areas and the ones most likely to show up if such a difference existed).

Rufus Coppertop · Mar 29, 2016

ManInBlack said:
Thanks for the interest, guys.

Neptune - the reason I was searching for an equivalent to chivalry is that I wanted to write Athena as close to a traditional Medieval knight as historical accuracy would allow.

Medieval chivalry had all sorts of cultural associations that just don't apply to ancient Greece. It wasn't something that just sort of fluffed up like a meringue. Much of it seems to be recruitment propaganda for the crusades.

King Neptune · Mar 29, 2016

ManInBlack said:
I'm aware of there being multiple states, but the impression I've always been led to is that they had the same general ideas as to who the gods were, etc. I've never seen any article or book that detailed Spartan myth vs Athenian myth (the two being the most heavily discussed areas and the ones most likely to show up if such a difference existed).

There were general similarities, but different cities worshipped different Gods, and there were cities in Ionia and colonies in Sicily and elsewhere that had different influences. Then there was the post- Alexander period, when Greek culture was spread around the world, and other cultures spread into Greece. How the Gods were cinsidered changed over time.

Rufus Coppertop · Mar 29, 2016

ManInBlack said:
I'm aware of there being multiple states, but the impression I've always been led to is that they had the same general ideas as to who the gods were, etc. I've never seen any article or book that detailed Spartan myth vs Athenian myth (the two being the most heavily discussed areas and the ones most likely to show up if such a difference existed).

The two states shared gods of course, but you will find different versions of myths from different places at different times. Mythology often had a political function.

An example of a charter myth is Cadmus sowing dragon's teeth from which sprung warriors who subsequently helped him found the city-state of Thebes. It established that the Thebans were warriors. It also established that they were autochthonous, or born from the soil as opposed to blow-ins and upstarts who didn't have the right to be there and could legitimately be chased off.

ManInBlack · Mar 29, 2016

Some good points, and not something I tend to think about. Then again, when I write about Greece (or in this case, figures from Greece), it's going to be in the world of the myths themselves, so the ones with differing origin stories are more likely to affect me than whether or not certain cities feel the same way.

Alessandra Kelley · Mar 30, 2016

ManInBlack said:
I'm aware of there being multiple states, but the impression I've always been led to is that they had the same general ideas as to who the gods were, etc. I've never seen any article or book that detailed Spartan myth vs Athenian myth (the two being the most heavily discussed areas and the ones most likely to show up if such a difference existed).

I am not absolutely certain of this, but I had the impression that the story that the gods were basically all the same from place to place was a line of propaganda pushed for political and imperialist reasons, possibly by the Athenians and certainly by the Romans (and everyone afterward who tried to emulate the Romans, which in Europe was pretty much everyone). Not everyone agreed, and local versions of gods could be *very* different from the smooth unified theology pushed in central, dominating cultures.

I find visual art sources to be excellent and often overlooked references. The Greeks left behind thousands of different depictions of their mythology on vase paintings and coins and other artworks, often labeled for your convenience. (From them, for example, we can see that Corinthian Athena looked completely different from Athenian Athena -- and it was the *Corinthian* Athena, not the Athenian one, that the Romans copied the look of for their goddess Minerva.)

ManInBlack · Mar 30, 2016

That may explain why I've seen reports of two different looks for Athena. Very interesting...I'll be looking into that. I sort of went with "majority rules, plus style" based on the sources I've found when I described her.

I've skimmed the article on the Iliad translations. While the one I have is not on there, it reminds me that if I have the choice I probably prefer a prose version (like the one I first experienced) rather than a poetic version; I don't want to be so focused on structure that it interferes with the research I'm performing, particularly since I'm neither seeking to review nor emulate Homer.

Ancient Greece

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Rufus Coppertop

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