German phrase check

Joanna Hoyt · Mar 24, 2016

I’ve put a few bits of German into my short story, but I am a fairly new learner. Mostly I’ve gotten by with quoting bits from Bach cantatas or the Bible, but I’d greatly appreciate it if any native/fluent speakers would be willing to let me know if the words/phrases below are incorrect or just sound wrong. I’m especially uncertain about singular/plural adjective forms.

geisteskrank—insane (describing a single individual)

Patriotische Idioten—(plural patriotic idiots)

““Werden wir dort stehen?” Will we stand over there? (trying to figure out if they have reserved seats or are in the standing-room-only section of the magic show audience)

“Erste Lutherische Kirche”—First Lutheran Church (inscription on the sign by the road)

“Ich gehe nach Hause.”—I’m going home (in response to "Where do you think you're going?"

“she would not be sorry if Jutta took sick. Not a fatal sickness, natürlich, just something disgusting and painful.”

“Kass is too old to be afraid of the dark. Trotzdem, she is afraid.”

Also, is “Herr Pastor Baum” the correct way to address, and also refer to, the German Lutheran minister? (Formality is appropriate—the time is 1920…)

Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Max Vaehling · Mar 25, 2016

"Werden wir dort stehen" sounds wrong. I'd go with "Haben wir Stehplätze?" (Do we have standing-room tickets?) to differentiate betwen standing room and seated tickts. But it depends on the context.

Not sure about the church. I don't think I've ever seen a sign saying "erste Lutherische Kirche". More like "Evangelisch-Lutherische Kirche". But I'm not entirely sure. I can have another look the next time I pass one.

Herr Pastor Baum sounds a little overly formal. "Herr Pastor" (without the name) should suffice when addressing him. "Pastor Baum" when you're calling on him police-style. Then again, it's 1920, people were more formal then.

As for adjective use, we have two plurals. For specific groups or numbers, we use "die [adjective]n [pluralized noun]", for general assessments it's like you used above [adjective] [pluralized noun]. So, "die patriotischen Idioten" if you're talking about a familiar bunc of idiots, "patriotische Idioten" if it's about patriotic idiots in general.

The rest sounds okay.

Joanna Hoyt · Mar 25, 2016

Thank you very much! Especially for the note about idiots; this is indeed a familiar bunch of patriotic idiots, and that isn't a distinction I'd even thought of. Thanks again.

Groundbelow73 · Mar 26, 2016

Joanna Hoyt said:
“Erste Lutherische Kirche”—First Lutheran Church (inscription on the sign by the road)

If it was the first Lutheran church that was founded back then, "Erste Lutherische Kirche" would be correct. If it is any Lutheran church, it would be "Evangelisch-Lutherische Kirche" including the name of the church, something like, "Elisabeth Kirche - Evangelisch-Lutherische Kirche". If it is the national church, it would be "Landeskirche der Evangelisch-Lutherischen Kirche".

Joanna Hoyt said:
Also, is “Herr Pastor Baum” the correct way to address, and also refer to, the German Lutheran minister? (Formality is appropriate—the time is 1920…)

If you address him, it's "Herr Pastor". If someone is talking about him, it's "Pastor Baum" (some people would also say, "der Herr Pastor ist heute aber schlecht gelaunt" - "the minister is in a bad mood today"). If it is written on a letter, it's "Herr Pastor Baum".

Joanna Hoyt · Mar 26, 2016

Thank you very much for explaining the different forms of pastoral address.

This is the first Lutheran church founded in the town; it is also a German-speaking church, and I'm not sure which would usually take precedence in its naming.

Thanks again!

Groundbelow73 · Mar 26, 2016

Joanna Hoyt said:
This is the first Lutheran church founded in the town; it is also a German-speaking church, and I'm not sure which would usually take precedence in its naming.

Ah! You could say, "Elisabeth-Kirche, erste evangelisch-lutherische Kirche in XX (insert the name of the town)". All these churches have a name, it wouldn't be just "Lutheran church". (Note that "evangelisch-lutherisch" isn't capitalized in this case.)

Joanna Hoyt · Mar 26, 2016

Got it--thank you very much!

Groundbelow73 · Mar 27, 2016

Joanna Hoyt said:
Got it--thank you very much!

You're welcome.

If you like to know more about life in a German Lutheran church ("Gemeinde") of this time, just PM me. My grandfather was a minister at the time.

kneedeepinthedoomed · Mar 28, 2016

I believe the Lutheran church is called "evangelisch" here. "Erste Evangelische Kirche." And they do tend to have imaginative names. Google is your friend.

Patriotic idiots - well politics are different here. "Patriotic" (patriotisch) is not an often-used term at least in North Germany. Anything really right-wing might be labeled as "neue Rechte" or "rechtskonservativ" or even "neonazis". It depends what group you mean and how violent etc. they are. A fluffy way to say it would be "rechte Idioten." There is unfortunately a whole spectrum there.

Joanna Hoyt · Mar 28, 2016

Thank you! Actually this story is set in a German-American neighborhood in Massachusetts, and the patriotic idiots come up in 1916, in a time when patriotism was at least much discussed in English in the area. (And die patriotischen Idioten being described here are Irish-Americans trying to disassociate themselves publicly from German-Americans at a time when, given what was happening in WWI and in the Easter Rebellion, the long-settled English-speaking Americans were inclined to be paranoid about both groups......) I know this rules out neonazis; I suppose I don't know whether patriotischen Idioten is plausible.

Groundbelow73 · Mar 28, 2016

kneedeepinthedoomed said:
I believe the Lutheran church is called "evangelisch" here. "Erste Evangelische Kirche." And they do tend to have imaginative names. Google is your friend.

No, the correct term is "evangelisch-lutherisch". You find this on every church, on your tax form... In common language you say "ich bin evangelisch / das ist eine evangelische Kirche," but not when it is written on a sign by the road.

kneedeepinthedoomed said:
Patriotic idiots - well politics are different here. "Patriotic" (patriotisch) is not an often-used term at least in North Germany. Anything really right-wing might be labeled as "neue Rechte" or "rechtskonservativ" or even "neonazis". It depends what group you mean and how violent etc. they are. A fluffy way to say it would be "rechte Idioten." There is unfortunately a whole spectrum there.

Not in the time from 1900 to 1920. "Patriotismus" was a strong word at the time. The term "rechts" is newer, after "Patriotismus" had become unpopular.

Joanna Hoyt · Mar 29, 2016

Thank you very much for the clarification.
One other thing I should have thought to ask earlier: Would a German-speaking girl would address her grandmother as Oma but refer to her as (meine) Großmutter? (If it makes any difference, this is a grandmother to whom she is not particularly close and of whom she is somewhat afraid.)

Groundbelow73 · Mar 29, 2016

Joanna Hoyt said:
Thank you very much for the clarification.
One other thing I should have thought to ask earlier: Would a German-speaking girl would address her grandmother as Oma but refer to her as (meine) Großmutter? (If it makes any difference, this is a grandmother to whom she is not particularly close and of whom she is somewhat afraid.)

Very difficult question. The term "Oma" is newer. It was already used in the 1940s/1950s, but until about 1880/1890 it was still popular to address the grandmother as "Frau Großmutter". I'm not sure about 1900-1920. Maybe you should choose "Großmama". It could suit the change from very formal to casual.
Refering to her as "meine Großmutter" is correct.

Joanna Hoyt · Mar 29, 2016

Thank you again! Now that I know it's plausible, Frau Großmutter would suit this rather formidable lady well indeed.

lacygnette · Apr 1, 2016

About crazy. I never heard geisteskrank. But verrückt or wahnsinnig I heard often. I expect those words are more informal or meant to indicate a non-medical level of crazy.

Groundbelow73 · Apr 1, 2016

lacygnette said:
About crazy. I never heard geisteskrank. But verrückt or wahnsinnig I heard often. I expect those words are more informal or meant to indicate a non-medical level of crazy.

"geisteskrank" is absolutely correct, especially for the time Joanna is referring to. And yes, "verrückt" or "wahnsinnig" are more informal.
"insane in the brain" = "krank im Kopf" = "geisteskrank" (mentally ill/crazy).
At the time, there were "Anstalten für Geisteskranke" (hospitals for the insanes), and unfortunately, "Geisteskranke" were a group of people who were murdered by the Nazis.
Today, the term isn't used often.

Joanna Hoyt · Apr 1, 2016

Once again, thank you very much for the period clarification.

Deb Kinnard · Apr 12, 2016

Also "schwachsinnig" -- my dad used to say his sister called him ein schwachsinniger Esel. I believe its literal translation is "feeble-minded."

Groundbelow73 · Apr 16, 2016

Deb Kinnard said:
Also "schwachsinnig" -- my dad used to say his sister called him ein schwachsinniger Esel. I believe its literal translation is "feeble-minded."

"Schwachsinniger Esel" is someone who is considered naive and stubborn, not mentally ill. In a different context, "schwachsinnig" could also stand for someone who is mentally deficient or feeble-minded.

Max Vaehling · Apr 17, 2016

Groundbelow73 said:
"Schwachsinniger Esel" is someone who is considered naive and stubborn, not mentally ill.

Actually, that's "störrischer Esel". "Schwachsinniger Esel" ties more into donkeys' alleged stupidness than their stubbornness.

Groundbelow73 · Apr 17, 2016

Max Vaehling said:
Actually, that's "störrischer Esel". "Schwachsinniger Esel" ties more into donkeys' alleged stupidness than their stubbornness.

What's your point?

"Esel" is someone who's considered naive and stubborn. "Schwachsinnig" stresses the stupidity (e.g., someone who insists on a stupid opinion,) "störrisch" (stubborn) stresses the stubbornness. The point is, however, "schwachsinnig" would be translated "naive" or "stupid" in this context (e.g., "you are a naive, stubborn idiot,") not "feeble-minded," but it can be translated "feeble-minded" or "mentally deficient" in a different context, e.g. "he's a feeble-minded old man" (er ist ein schwachsinniger, alter Mann.)

Joanna Hoyt · Apr 18, 2016

This is a bit off topic, but since you're still here, Groundbelow73, with your knowledge of German pastors....

How would the minister (again, in the 19-teens) address the members of his congregation in one-on-one conversation? Someone he knows reasonably well (it's a congregation of a few hundred) but to whom he is not especially close? Would the class/professional status of the person in question make any difference? I've been assuming first names for children, but wasn't sure if adults would be Herr/Frau/Fraulein X or would be addressed by first name, though I was leaning toward the former.
Thanks again for all the help you've given me.

Groundbelow73 · Apr 18, 2016

Joanna Hoyt said:
This is a bit off topic, but since you're still here, Groundbelow73, with your knowledge of German pastors....

How would the minister (again, in the 19-teens) address the members of his congregation in one-on-one conversation? Someone he knows reasonably well (it's a congregation of a few hundred) but to whom he is not especially close? Would the class/professional status of the person in question make any difference? I've been assuming first names for children, but wasn't sure if adults would be Herr/Frau/Fraulein X or would be addressed by first name, though I was leaning toward the former.
Thanks again for all the help you've given me.

If it's an adult who is not a friend, I would choose "Frau/Fräulein/Herr X." First names for children are okay. Addressing a woman with her first name might be considered inappropriate at the time, especially for a minister.
Men were often addressed with their title (of profession). We still do it today, e.g. "What do you think, Senator / doctor...?" Back then, it was common to do this with all kinds of "higher ranking" professions. "Herr Pastor, Herr Direktor, Herr Doktor, Herr Senator, Magister..." Whenever someone gained a title, it was used instead of the name. If there's no title, it's "Herr [last name]."
You would also talk about someone by using the title or the profession.
A conversation could be like this:
"How are you doing, Fräulein A.? You look pale."
"Haven't you heard? Bankdirektor B. died last night."

Joanna Hoyt · Apr 18, 2016

Thank you very much for this clear and detailed explanation! This makes a lot of sense.

Deb Kinnard · Apr 19, 2016

I stand corrected. However, knowing the animus that existed between Dad and my Aunt, she might well have considered him naive and stubborn as well as dumb.

(They didn't get along)

German phrase check

Sucked in by AW again