Honor your father & mother

You're probably thinking of Exodus 21:12. The commandments listed previously talk about our relationship to God and the following commandments talk about our relationship to each other.

Honor would take different forms for people of different ages. For a child at home, "honor" your parents could include abiding by the house rules and treating each other with respect. As the child grows up, they might face dilemnas about obeying versus doing the right thing

For a Christian (most likely an older child or teen or adult, someone who has made their own decision to follow Christ) their first loyalty is to God.

For married Christians their first loyalty is to God, then their spouse, then their parents. For instance being sure their parents are cared for. Jesus had harsh words for soem religious folk who chose to give to the Temple rather than support their parents (Matthew 15:4-6) However, boundaries are in order. The parents should not presume to drive a wedge between spouses or between their adult child and the adult child's beliefs and try to justify it with an "honor your father and mother" argument.

We used to go to a non-denominational church where everyone came from somewhere else. It was a store-front start-up church at one time, in other words. One of the leaders who took the most grief from his family for changing churches said if the dispute is not about a salvation issue, it was not worth arguing about.

Sorry I don't have three points and a poem for you.

ysic
ann

My two cents:

1. What does this verse mean?
Honor your father and mother. Period.

2. Does this verse apply to adults and if so, how should adults honor their parents?
Just curious: What makes you think it applies only to children? Parents are always deserving of honor.

3. How does a Christian do this when their parents are not Christian - both a teen Christian and an adult Christian?
Does being a Christian have anything to do with it? The passage you quote doesn't have any conditions on it.

Honor is pretty much the reverse of despising. One is to elevate the other is to bring down. (In the eyes of others) When Jesus referred to humility he said to take the lowest seat, so that when you are asked by the host to move UP- you will be HONORED....in the presence of all. - Your value in their eyes increases.

It's rather interesting that the Bible equates blessing to honoring parents and a curse to dishonoring parents (Dueteronomy 27)- Don't get me started on blessings and curses-

Honoring is not the same as "Obeying" your parents. If your parents happen to be Bonnie and Clyde and ask you to knock off a liquor store and you decline, you are not dishonoring them.

When Noah's son uncovered his father's nakedness, he dishonored him- by making him look like a fool in front of the others. "Hey come look at dad drunk and naked on the floor." Remember, "Love COVERS -a multitude of sins". His two brothers kind of covered their eyes, and covered him up.

So, our actions and words send a message to the world whether or not someone is highly valued, or despised. If someone can look at our actions, and from them determine- this is a person of great worth (the object of our honor) we've succeeded.

So, when the Bible refers to honoring God, or God honoring us, it has to do with projecting worth. - "This is a very important person"

Well-said, Nate.

I think I'll wait to read more posts before weighing in with my 2 cents.

Of course I have an opinion.

I have an opinion for everything.



They may be worthless, but I've got 'em.

Puddle Jumper said:

This is the Christian forum. The verse is in the Christian Bible. The verse applies to Christians and that is the context for both this thread in this forum. If it were not, I would not have posted it in the Christian forum. The question is directed towards Christians.

Click to expand...

Gee, good thing I know the secret Christian password to get into this forum.

And, if you're going to get technical about it, isn't this forum for religious and spiritual WRITING? This topic feels more Office Party to me.

Didn't you say yourself that there is no right or wrong answer? Oh, yes -- it's in the first post of this thread. Then why must you argue with people's responses?

You missed my point. Perhaps I should've said, what does NOT being a Christian have to do with it?

Would you think you're free not to honor your parents if they're not Christian? The quote wasn't "Honor your father and mother, but only if they're Christians. Otherwise, feel free to treat them as badly as you want."

Where is it found?

The verse I was referring to is Luke 14:8-12.

First let me say, I can't speak for your situation, not knowing any of the particulars. There are situations and circumstances that can be unique, and I won't pry as to what the issues are between you and your parents or in-laws? And I sympathise, having had my own issues to deal with concerning "Honoring father and mother", which for me was somewhat of a lifelong pilgrimage.

In general, you will find certain words have similar meanings, but are used in different contexts. Honor is similar to "glorify"- and it has to do with "Lifting up".

Separate definitions: Love- honor- obey- They aren't the same things. One has to do with motive, the other intention, the other action.

Always start with the first and formost which is "Love". Honor is secondary.

Also throw in another concept- fellowship or restored relationship. Are there cases where you can love someone and not honor them? Perhaps, but generally the incline of the heart would be to honor them. And in some cases that might NOT mean "Restored Relationships"- child abuser- physically violent spouse...etc.

In some cases "honoring" may be different than in other cases. In the case of Joseph and Mary, Joseph thought his bethrothed cheated on him, and decided not to publically shame her. The Bible records his thinking as a righteous act. "Because he was a righteous man he sought to put her away quietly" - Call off the marriage without ruining her.

But what if a parent did do something terrible in a relationship? Does honoring mean instantly forgiving and re-entering relationship? Well, what if the behavior never ended, and the parents demean and demand and abuse?

There can be situations where you love someone and for various reasons don't fellowship with them. Restoration of relationships is generally a two-way street. For instance, I may have wanted my children to honor their grandfather, but if he was violent and abusive, and demeaned them, my protecting them would not be purposing to dishonor them. My purpose would be to protect them. Likewise, if there are wounds (depending on the who/how) a person might distance themselves from another, not for spite, but for peace sake.

The gist is not to take the command- "Honor thy father and mother"- lightly. There are blessings and curses attached to the command. And if you follow spiritual laws, they act somewhat like natural laws, without distinction.

Here's the thing. In Malachi, God warns through the prophet, "And he shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse" (chapter 4:V6)

This mostly has to do with the "incline" of our heart; meaning, if it were up to us (which is not always the case) we would have a good relationship. And as much as it is up to us, we leave the door open to that.

My father died, and I never got a chance to have "That talk" with him. I tried. Till the day he died, my relationship with my father was never what I hoped it would be. I drove fourteen hours to bring my children to see him so he could have a relationship with them. Part of my "honoring him" was to avoid maligning him to my sons, and they had a great relationship with him and loved him. But I realized my father would never be to me what I hoped he could be to me, and that my honoring him was making him know he was loved. But it wasn't a road without bumps. There were moments I was an emotional twelve year old wanting to just sever all ties; and storm off refusing to speak to him again. I had to fight that.

Whatever your own issues are, I hope you find a peaceful resolution that leads to satisfaction.

Nate

a quick clarification,the verse in Luke refers to words Jesus spoke about honor, but in a different context than the commandment God gives in Exodus. in fact it doesn't even say "honor your father and mother" specifically, the Luke passage is about humility.

Puddle Jumper said:

.
This is the Christian forum. The verse is in the Christian Bible. The verse applies to Christians and that is the context for both this thread in this forum. If it were not, I would not have posted it in the Christian forum. The question is directed towards Christians.

Click to expand...

The commandment reads: (NIV) Exodus 20:12; "Honor your father and your mother that you may live long in the Land the Lord your God is giving you."
this verse/commandment was given to the Jewish people on their way out of exile from Egypt as part of the Ten Commandments. this was long long before Christianity.

Puddle Jumper said:

3. How does a Christian do this when their parents are not Christian - both a teen Christian and an adult Christian?

Click to expand...

i hope you're not suggesting that only Christians are subject to the benefits of God's commandments? Your parents are the ones GOD ordained to bring you into the world, i wouldn't even consider blatantly disobeying His command to honor them, no matter what their faith.

Puddle Jumper said:

4. Feel free to share anything else you feel like sharing.

Click to expand...

are you sure? i think i understand the discussion you were trying to bring about PuddleJumper, and it could have been interesting, but you need to see that the very way you word your questions seems biased and your replies suggest that only answers from certain viewpoints are acceptable. a simpler opening, like "honor thy father and mother: discuss" would have led to a more fair discussion.

P.H.Delarran said:

a quick clarification,the verse in Luke refers to words Jesus spoke about honor, but in a different context than the commandment God gives in Exodus. in fact it doesn't even say "honor your father and mother" specifically, the Luke passage is about humility.
The commandment reads: (NIV) Exodus 20:12; "Honor your father and your mother that you may live long in the Land the Lord your God is giving you."
this verse/commandment was given to the Jewish people on their way out of exile from Egypt as part of the Ten Commandments. this was long long before Christianity.
i hope you're not suggesting that only Christians are subject to the benefits of God's commandments? Your parents are the ones GOD ordained to bring you into the world, i wouldn't even consider blatantly disobeying His command to honor them, no matter what their faith.
are you sure? i think i understand the discussion you were trying to bring about PuddleJumper, and it could have been interesting, but you need to see that the very way you word your questions seems biased and your replies suggest that only answers from certain viewpoints are acceptable. a simpler opening, like "honor thy father and mother: discuss" would have led to a more fair discussion.

Click to expand...

I realize your motive is honorable, but feel it is important to explain where I was coming from.

The context of what Jesus was saying was not about "Humility" in a box, but about God's honor. It's the same general context of the scripture which is both Old and New Testament, God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. and "Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up." (James 4:9)

I was simply making the point that "honor" as used in Jesus illustration had to do with elevation, and in particular, "being honored" in the sight of others. And if you look of the Aramaic for "Honor" in the Old Testament, and follow its roots, it is a positional term.

Jesus speaks of "Attitudes, values and priorities" in the Sermon on the Mount. (Matthew 5,6 and7)

Seeking honor is not a sin. This scripture in Luke is in the context of "trying to impress people vs pleasing God."

It's not that you don't have a point, but it is a contextual point. Our pride (instant gratification) is what compells us to show off, and do things to impress people. (Seeking a high seat at the table)- look at me, I'm important.

The metaphor is not about men honoring, or that would negate what Jesus was saying. It's about us making God's honor our priority.- Thy kingdom come vs "My kingdom come".

If our attitude is in the right place, then God will honor us. If not, then we will eventually be humbled in front of the world.

In Matthew, Jesus implies that our prayer, our fasting, our good works, should not be with the intention of pleasing men, but also indicates these are not vain endeavors without benefit. He says God in heaven will reward. (See Matthew 6:1-7)

Again, Jesus said, "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them..." (John 17:22) Humility and obscurity are not synonyms. The disciples had a level of honor. Hebrews tells us to honor those in authority over us. Honor, or elevation itself is not a problem. It's the motive of our heart.

Honor and glory are often interchangeable in the New Testament, and sometimes the same word is used both ways.

Why do I bother saying this? Because there is such a thing as "False humility". If God calls someone to the head of the table, they should not decline, in false humility, saying, "No, I will stay here at the bottom of the table to be humble."

As far as the topic, I think it is a great topic, and honest discussion is helpful, because it can be a platform for not only one person to benefit, but many. The subject may seem "Black and White", but the question of honor is a complex subject. I agree in principle, but not necessarily in practice that we shouldn't be willy nilly about any commandment.

I didn't want to get into spiritual laws/curses and blessings, but technically this issue falls under "conduits of blessing". If God makes a conduit with which he intends to use to bless mankind (which is generally people) never curse them. If you curse the conduit God intends to bless, your blessing drys up.

Parents fall into the "conduit of God's blessing". This was why God said to Abraham, "Whoever blesses you I will bless, whoever curses you I will curse."

Abraham wasn't always a stellar person. He lied to save himself, and almost got his wife raped in the process, using half truth and deception. Yet, when the king took Sarah, a curse came on him- even though he didn't intentionally do anything wrong.

God warns him in a dream and he gave Sarah back to Abraham and said, "Why did you lie to me?" (Praphrase)- the point is that because Abraham was a conduit of blessing, cursing him in any way would turn around as a curse on that person. And so, whenever you see God's annointed in any form, cursing them brought a curse. And this is why King David (annointed by Samuel) refused to slay King Saul, because Saul was at one time, "God's annointed".

Parents were meant to be a conduit of blessing, through which God would bless children. Now, parents aren't always the most spiritual people. Some are quite screwed up, and enslave, beat, torture, rape their own children.

I do happen to believe in spiritual laws, sowing and reaping; but with that said, wisdom applies to the question being asked. Situations differ; and how to apply this scripture has more to do with the state of a person's heart more than a specific course of action.

Personally, I don't think a broad brush answer applies to the question.

wow

thanks for all that Nate..i hope my limited understanding did it justice. you were demonstrating the biblical and cultural intent behind the concept of honor?
anyway, sorry if my post was misunderstood. my intent was to clarify authorship of the command in question in the thread, and the target audience of the command.

Puddle Jumper said:

I was not talking about myself. I was using a generalized scenario. I'm neither married nor have children and am very close to both my parents. The situation is hypothetical but what it represents is real for so many people. And what it represents is what was in my mind when I started the thread. If your parents have never mistreated you, never stood against you in any way, has always been loving and supportive of you, is it dishonoring them to then push them out of your life? IE. if you have a child and you won't let them see the child, if you're getting married but don't let them come or have it somewhere where they can't come, refuse to let them come to your college graduation, etc...


Children obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. "Honor your father and mother" - which is the first commandment with a promise (Eph. 6:1-2)

This was spoken to Christians. And again, this is the Christian forum, thus the question is directed at Christians whom both the Old and New Testament was written for.


You seem to be trying to create conflict by jumping to conclusions.

Click to expand...

The question may be theoretical for you, but you are perceptive in that is very real for others.

The answer is loaded, because situations are unique. There are many people on the boards (if they are like the general population, which I assume they are) who've been abandoned, abused, and have tremendous issues with their parents.

Real case: Parents want to honor their parents and send kids to help on grandparent's farm. Grandparent beats kids with whatever is in reach, and demeans them in every way; demeans you as a parent. (really happened) He has a hair-trigger temper, and will rant and tear down everything, their parents, their faith, whatever doesn't meet his approval. Sends kids home in tears.

Is it dishonoring to remove the kids from this man's tyrany? Of course not. They already know this guys got problems. You are not being dishonoring by not sending your kids to stay with a hitman.

In this case, the parents (this man's children) might honor the parent by helping their own children to understand the hardships that man might have faced that made him who he is. And so, instead of inflaming anger, they foster love for this person, understanding and compassion, but they also have a limited relationship. The boundaries are not there for contempt and to be vindictive, but to protect the family. (We love so-and-so, but he has a terrible temper problem...he was abandoned by his parents and passed from home to home...he loves you, but sometimes has a hard time showing it."

Spiritually minded- or sensitive people, have difficulty placing boundaries, because they seem mean, or vindictive. However, even God places boundaries. If we do certain things, the Bible says specifically he will not hear our prayers. If we've offended someone, we're to go to them and seek reconciliation before bringing our gifts to the altar. God is essentially saying, "Don't come to me until you make things right". Even "Forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive others," is acknowledgeing that there are boundaries, and if we don't comply, we reap what we sow.

Saying, "You have no right to hit me, and if you hit me...is setting a reasonable boundary. You are not choosing to remove them from your circle; but they are choosing to remove themselves by their actions.

My brother used to misquote, "You have to fogive me, because you are a Christian" as meaning he could do whatever he wanted. (he didn't really push it) Well, you can come to such a theological view to a point, but only to a point. Abusers will exploit ignorance. "You have to forgive me..." Well, forgiveness (in the sense of wanting them to pay dearly for their offense) is not the issue. It's boundaries. They've demonstrated unwillingness to live with us by their actions, and forfieted fellowship. They have no right to demand anything. If we by grace choose to seek reconciliation, it should be conditional, and in wisdom. (we are not required to live under the barrel of a gun)

Scripture tells husbands to "honor your wives". and also, "Lay down your lives for your wives as Christ laid down his life for the church" and the generic "Submit yourselves to one another..."

In other words, don't be a cave man, demanding, lording strength. In fact if you take Christ's love, which is to give up his life, and apply that, her career needs or ego needs change importance. Did Christ come to serve or be served? Did he come to seek his own way, or to submit to the way of another "His Father"? What does she need at the end of the day? What does she need to feel good about herself? This thinking changes the cave-man dynamic of families.

Have a mind to serve and seek their welfare, and consider their needs. However, if that person is cheating on you, you are not bound to "honor" them. You have permission to leave them. You may choose to forgive and honor them out of compassion, but if you place a boundary, "If you cheat on me, I will move out..." you aren't disobeying scripture. You are placing boundaries.

Honor your parents is meant to bring us blessings, and so I take it very seriously. As much as it is within us to do that, we should do that, or we can in fact bring curses into our lives, and in fact, some people do have curses in their lives for this reason. However, God doesn't command us to be cannon fodder for them if that is the situation. We should never expose our Children to harm. As a husband, I wouldn't expose my wife to it either. If being around in-laws and out-laws is harming, for whatever reason, its not sin to sit back and take inventory.

Manipulative people demand honor, "I'm your mother...you listen to me!" Well, tyrants think that way. A grown parent has to understand "A man shall leave his mother, and a woman shall leave her home..." Leave and cleave. The parent who doesn't understand this is actually usurping authority they don't have.

I've heard so many people misquote scripture, "But I'm supposed to train up a child in the way they should go..." Well, technically they stopped being a child in their early teens (Think of the age Jewish children technically become adults), and if you haven't given them a clue which way to go by then, there's a problem. And no sixty year old mom should be telling their forty year old daughter or son how to live their life, or twenty or thirty.

Puddle Jumper said:

You seem to be trying to create conflict by jumping to conclusions.

Click to expand...

Behold, the undisputed queen of accidental irony.

(Exhibit B)

You invited people to this topic. They're trying to discuss with you. It would behoove you to be nice to them.

P.H.Delarran said:

thanks for all that Nate..i hope my limited understanding did it justice. you were demonstrating the biblical and cultural intent behind the concept of honor?
anyway, sorry if my post was misunderstood. my intent was to clarify authorship of the command in question in the thread, and the target audience of the command.

Click to expand...

Not a problem at all. Your point was a good point. Humility is also a part of that lesson. I was just focusing on something different- two edged swords have more than one point.

Nate

Puddle Jumper said:

1. What does this verse mean?

Click to expand...

Show respect to your parents and fulfill your earthly and moral obligations to them.

2. Does this verse apply to adults and if so, how should adults honor their parents?

Click to expand...

Of course. Adults honor parents by showing thier parents respect and taking care of them, emotionally and financially, when they can no longer care for themselves. You also show patience and tolerance when they become cantankerous in thier old age, instead of letting it rile you up.

3. How does a Christian do this when their parents are not Christian - both a teen Christian and an adult Christian?

Click to expand...

The same way you honor Christian parents. If they do immoral things, you do not support them in thier immorality (that's not honor).

I had a very difficult time with this for a long time-

My father was an alcoholic & life at home was pretty chaotic. It was difficult to acknowledge that my "Heavenly Father" was any different than my "earthly father", because that was the only example of a father I had to go by....violent, angry, inconsistent, unloving-

That was years ago, and of course I have a close relationship with The Lord now. I had to learn to look at my dysfunctional parents not through my human understanding, I suppose- but through God's eyes...as human beings in need of guidance and love.

I feel that I handled it wrong growing up, as I certainly did not "honor" the two people who hurt me and made life crazy. We were forced to go to church every week- and thought how hypocritical it all was in light of the fact of what was going on behind closed doors when we got home.


But I understand now that ALL THINGS work for the good of those who love the Lord. My experience at home in fact made me the best mother ever to MY children...I have forgiven them....and have a special place in my heart for children in similar situations.

"Honor" I don't think necessarily means to condone what they do or don't do-
I think it's simply acknowledging the fact that they brought us into the world- and are also children of God...deserving of our mercy, forgiveness, and understanding.

Puddle Jumper said:

...the question is directed at Christians whom both the Old and New Testament was written for.

Click to expand...

No, I'm sorry, the book of Exodus is part of the Jewish scriptures. Really. There weren't any Christians when the commandment about parents was written. Christians inherited the commandment later.

Until someone comes along who has expert knowledge of the Hebrew words used in that text, the meaning of "honor" allows a broad range of interpretations. You gave an example of a woman who keeps her baby from her parents because she's selfish and spiteful. As I understand it, Christians aren't supposed to be selfish and spiteful in the first place, so she's doing wrong. If her parents were abusive and she's protecting the baby, that's something different.

For an adult, honoring parents would mean, to me, things like these: Speak respectfully to them even if you don't approve of everything they do. Don't slander them to other people. Help them if they need something. (You don't have to do what they want when it concerns your own life only. They're not in charge of you anymore.) There may also be specific religious obligations like arranging funeral services and saying certain prayers.

Puddle Jumper said:

I respectfully disagree....the commandment was written to everyone He considered to be His children, both Jews and Christians.

Click to expand...

Still, as I said, there weren't any Christians when Exodus was written (or, if you wish, when it was written down). That's simply a historical fact. I didn't say the commandment wasn't for Christians. I only have a problem with the idea that Christians are the sole audience for the Bible, both testaments.

You did open the discussion with

I wanted to ask some questions regarding this verse, for anyone who doesn't mind answering.

Click to expand...

which leaves it open to participation from people who stand in various places with regard to Christianity.

So what do you think of the responses so far?