Deal announcements with no "nice deal" text

hikarinotsubasa · Feb 29, 2016

I'm curious. When a deal is announced on PM, and does not have the "in a nice deal," "in a very nice deal," etc text, does this always or usually mean that there was no advance involved?

With certain publishers (especially digital-first imprints), I tend to take this to mean the agent was not able to (or did not attempt to) negotiate an advance. But I am curious if this is true across the board. Is there ever a situation in which an advance was involved, but in which the agent chooses not to use "in a XXX deal" wording in the deal announcement?

Cyia · Mar 1, 2016

For illustration purposes:

"nice deal" $1 - $49,000
"very nice deal" $50,000 - $99,000
"good deal" $100,000 - $ 250,000
"significant deal" $251,000 - $499,000
"major deal" $500,000 and up

"Nice" is the default. If no deal bracket is mentioned, then assume it's between $1 and $49,000. If it's higher, the deal listing will definitely reflect it.

hikarinotsubasa · Mar 1, 2016

Right, I knew that... was just curious about "sales" that have no monetary value assigned... are they all no advance, or not? (and they're not all between $1-49,999... I've gotten a handful of $0 offers myself...)

Cyia · Mar 1, 2016

If the deal is an announced sale, it's not $0.

hikarinotsubasa · Mar 1, 2016

I don't think that's true. LOTS of digital first publishers pay no advance at all, unless the agent fights for it. Lots of those deals... not sales, but DEALS, are still announced on PM.

Anyone else?

nadja1972 · Mar 1, 2016

My impression is that sometimes the $ amount of the advance simply isn't released as part of the announcement. Not sure why. Maybe just discretion on the part of the publisher, agent or writer?

Helix · Mar 1, 2016

Aren't the deals reported by the agents? Would an agent report a deal that had no advance? Or indeed make a deal that resulted in no readies upfront? It might simply be that the agent didn't state the amount of the sale.

Toothpaste · Mar 1, 2016

I've had very decent advances on my books and I've never had my PW announcement written in that code. I know people say it exists, I assume maybe it actually does, but if someone read my PW announcement they would assume I wasn't getting an advance. So yeah, I'm not actually sure how accurate this code this thing is.

Also yes PW announcements are made by agents, and yes some deals are for no advance (I have a friend who has had several announcements for her non-advance paying publishing deals). Usually an agent makes such a deal when a book has not been able to sell to anyone else. This doesn't mean that the agent will never make any money though, they make it off of royalties. Agents are also there to promote the work of their clients, posting a PW announcement even for a non-advance paying deal still gets attention for their client.

LaneHeymont · Mar 1, 2016

Truth is some agents simply don't bother putting in the "nice", "Very nice", "good" values. I've seen editors do the same. *shrug*

Fuchsia Groan · Mar 1, 2016

Like Toothpaste's, my announcement didn't specify a bracket, just "in a pre-empt." There was an advance. (You need one for a pre-empt.)

My impression is, the wording is at the discretion of the agent and editor, and different people have different preferences. When the advance is in a top bracket, or the deal involved an auction, they might be more likely to want to advertise that information. When it's four or five figures, perhaps not as much. So people who skim PM might come away with the vague impression that advances tend to be six figures or zero dollars. That's clearly not the case.

I remember feeling frustrated by this vagueness of deal info when I was querying. I think a few agents have written blog posts about how you shouldn't put too much stock in PM announcements.

hikarinotsubasa · Mar 1, 2016

Ahhh, good point, Fuschia Green! I've seen announcements like that too, and that makes sense.

It also makes sense that a no-advance deal would be a second choice after more lucrative options fell through... So, basically, some deal announcements are hard to read anything into. Ah, publishing, what else is new?

mellymel · Mar 1, 2016

LaneHeymont said:
Truth is some agents simply don't bother putting in the "nice", "Very nice", "good" values. I've seen editors do the same. *shrug*

I heard this as well. I don't remember where I read it or which agent it was, but I do remember reading that one agent doesn't like to announce what kind of a deal it is. I'm wondering if maybe this applies to several agents.

ETA: I could be totally wrong about this, though. So feel free to let me know if I am. I could be confusing my info with something else.

JamesGaberel · Mar 1, 2016

Found this post from Jennifer Laughran's old blog: http://literaticat.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-straight-dope-on-pm.html. It's a good read.

In it, she says "Personally, I prefer to leave the money part off the announcements"

Roxxsmom · Mar 1, 2016

Yeah, some just don't like to include that information, and it's frustrating for people who like to crunch numbers and gather data. Some agents don't report their deals to PM at all, in fact. This is really hard when you're researching and want to see if an agent you're thinking of querying has sold any books to top imprints in your genre, and they come up with no deals at all. I'm not sure what benefit there is to being so evasive, but some prefer to be.

Aggy B. · Mar 1, 2016

As far as the amount of the deal, some authors don't like talking about the money they're making. I know Scalzi is not the only author who made a point of talking about what he was earning (until recently when the figures started to get large enough his wife was uncomfortable with him talking about it on his blog), but a lot of folks consider their income to be private. So they (and their agents) might not like to advertise what they could be making.

As far as agents not posting any sales, I believe they have to pay for those listings. For a new agent with little income or an established agent with a stable client list that money might seem better spent elsewhere.

For those who aren't aware, QueryTracker usually has a list of known clients for the agents in their database with links to Amazon listings. It's not always as productive as a PM announcement (because sometimes the books are older sales), but it can give you a feel for the kind of sales an agent has made in the past.

CEtchison · Mar 1, 2016

hikarinotsubasa said:
It also makes sense that a no-advance deal would be a second choice after more lucrative options fell through... So, basically, some deal announcements are hard to read anything into. Ah, publishing, what else is new?

IMO, just because a publishing house offers an advance doesn't always mean it's the better deal. And my agent agreed.

I received four offers (three of which were Big 5) and only one had advance money (which is becoming more commonplace in the romance genre). The no-advance deal I accepted (and was announced in PM) is a better deal on the back end since it includes escalating royalty amounts. And since many successful authors say "the money is in the backlist", unless you're only going to write one book, it makes sense to look at the deal in the long term instead of automatically taking the short term reward. Also, as part of the offer from my publisher, they had already created a marketing strategy as to how they would launch me as a debut author, they knew where they were going to place me in the production schedule, etc. The other houses were all "well we think X might happen, if not we'll do Z."

Anna Spargo-Ryan · Mar 1, 2016

I reckon I'd rather not have my advanced announced, even in "code", unless it had a story attached to it ("Six major publishing houses bid on Spargo-Ryan's revolutionary novel before eight-figure deal!"). Jennifer Laughran's post is a good one.

Jennifer_Laughran · Mar 2, 2016

As I say in that post - I am not a huge fan of putting monetary designations on PM listings, I feel like an author's income is their own business and it feels a little tacky/braggy to me. Many publishers also have restrictions on listing deal figures, some explicitly forbidding mention of money. So, as above, unless there is a story there (like it was an auction, or pre-empt, or something like that, which can spark foreign interest), I leave that area blank. That doesn't mean it sold for a nickel!

I haven't done a deal with no advance. It's my understanding that only micropresses or digital only deals might be in that category.

I will say, too, that blog post still holds true - but as an ETA as it was some years ago: I find that the more deals I've done and the more clients I have, the more... *complicated* it can be to list on PM. Publishers can be wary about announcing bigger or more special deals because they want to do a publicity push at a later date, or my clients have conflicts with so-and-so, and don't want to let them know they're selling such-and-such, or whatever. It was all much more straightforward when I was a newbie.

(Plus, I simply don't have as much time to obsess about the deal listings - which is a good thing!)

TECarter · Mar 2, 2016

Wouldn't some announcements be follow up deals, too? So Author A signs a three-book deal and the next announcement, a year later, isn't going to specificy nice or good or anything because it's book two in the previous deal?

lizmonster · Mar 2, 2016

TECarter said:
Wouldn't some announcements be follow up deals, too? So Author A signs a three-book deal and the next announcement, a year later, isn't going to specificy nice or good or anything because it's book two in the previous deal?

I signed a three-book deal, and the announcement stated this. I don't expect a separate announcement for each book - I think the PM announcements are basically saying "This purchase was just made." The second and third books aren't separate buys for the publisher.

JamesGaberel · Mar 2, 2016

Jennifer_Laughran said:
As I say in that post - I am not a huge fan of putting monetary designations on PM listings, I feel like an author's income is their own business and it feels a little tacky/braggy to me. Many publishers also have restrictions on listing deal figures, some explicitly forbidding mention of money. So, as above, unless there is a story there (like it was an auction, or pre-empt, or something like that, which can spark foreign interest), I leave that area blank. That doesn't mean it sold for a nickel!

I haven't done a deal with no advance. It's my understanding that only micropresses or digital only deals might be in that category.

I will say, too, that blog post still holds true - but as an ETA as it was some years ago: I find that the more deals I've done and the more clients I have, the more... *complicated* it can be to list on PM. Publishers can be wary about announcing bigger or more special deals because they want to do a publicity push at a later date, or my clients have conflicts with so-and-so, and don't want to let them know they're selling such-and-such, or whatever. It was all much more straightforward when I was a newbie.

(Plus, I simply don't have as much time to obsess about the deal listings - which is a good thing!)

I had no idea you hung out here. Thanks for your reply!

Jennifer_Laughran · Mar 2, 2016

Roxxsmom said:
Yeah, some just don't like to include that information, and it's frustrating for people who like to crunch numbers and gather data.

I hear you on liking numbers and data - but at the same time, from an agent's perspective, that's not what the point of PM is, actually.

Some agents don't report their deals to PM at all, in fact. This is really hard when you're researching and want to see if an agent you're thinking of querying has sold any books to top imprints in your genre, and they come up with no deals at all. I'm not sure what benefit there is to being so evasive, but some prefer to be.

"Evasive" has a majorly negative connotation. Like... do you think that agents are hiding something or trying to thwart authors?

Perhaps, instead of assuming that the agents are seeing a benefit in being evasive, the opposite is true: indeed, these agents are NOT seeing a benefit in LISTING. (Because really: there isn't a huge benefit.) It CAN inspire foreign interest. But then, so can all the other things we do, like sharing the manuscripts with scouts and foreign co-agents and attending Bologna/Frankfurt/London book fairs. It CAN be a bit of publicity - but then, publicity pushes are much more effective close to the date of release -- talking about something in an industry bulletin board two years before it happens is unlikely to generate sales. It CAN be a boost of PR to an agent - but most agents who have been around for a bit have a lot of clients already, and don't particularly feel the need to advertise.

So basically: It's perfectly nice. It's FUN to have good news! And it can be a useful snapshot of some things that are selling. But it isn't a gospel.

hikarinotsubasa · Mar 2, 2016

Thanks everyone! From the point of view of an author, it's just a little more legwork when you're interested in an agent, but haven't heard of any of the recent imprints they've sold to. If the agent's obviously getting books on shelves, size of the advance doesn't matter as much. But there are so many imprints these days that it can be hard to tell at a glance if an agent is mainly selling to tiny, tiny presses, or if it's just that I haven't memorized every imprint at every major house. &#55357;&#56841;

Of course, that's what Google is for! So basically I should do more research and not assume anything because an agent or publisher doesn't use that wording. Got it! Thanks! &#55357;&#56842;

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