Interfaith romance demonized in Israel over educational concerns

Ravioli · Jan 10, 2016

Borderlife by Dorit Rabinyan

Demonized, for lack of better word. "Ban" is most often used, but it's inaccurate. It hasn't been put on a forbidden books list or anything. It's in circulation. However, the reason many Israeli schools have individually "banned" it and why the wrong pick of an education minister, Naftali Benett, is hating on it, still justifies outrage:

The novel is about the romance between an Israeli Jewish woman and a Palestinian man. And, the argument against it is, racial mixing/assimilation is not something we should encourage children to accept as it is against the values of the state of Israel...

...

...

...k.

For an education minister to be so open about his bigotry and segregationism, to worry about "teh children!" at the exposure to intefaith love... I mean, all these people were elected. They have a huge following. I mean, the book hasn't been officially banned, but it's treated like a rapist's mug shot. I'm thrilled to publish my own Israeli interfaith/merry assimilation novel asap. Dayum I need to find an Israeli publisher, because, dayum.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...israeli-palestinian-love-affair-a6792441.html

This is so embarassing.

Kylabelle · Jan 10, 2016

From Ravioli's link:

It is a literary love story between an Israeli woman and a Palestinian man which some hoped would unite a region divided.

But today Israel’s Ministry of Education excluded from school literature curriculums the novel on the grounds that it could promote mixing between the two nations and undermine the distinct identity of Israeli Jews.

James. Please give a cite for your claim about ten thousand books per year being refused admittance to public libraries.

Please also note that parents choosing what their children may read is an entirely different event from a national education minister excluding a book from curriculum on racial grounds.

Also, please remove the final statement from your post, which is a personal slur and entirely unnecessary. Thank you. (I will remove your post from view if you'd rather.)

Latina Bunny · Jan 10, 2016

That really sucks.

Um, probably dumb question, but I'm confused...

Are there laws regarding interfaith or interracial discrimination? Are people (in interfaith/interracial relationships) allowed to marry, or do the religious institutions have some strict rules about that?

Or is this more of a society just not being accepting, but the couples can still legally marry, etc? I'm just wondering what the general environment is like that such a theme in a book would be offensive.

(I'm not well-educated in the history and background about this place. I apologize for my ignorance.)

Lillith1991 · Jan 10, 2016

Jamesaritchie said:
So? It amazes me how many people get upset when someone doesn't want their children to read a book. It's no one's damned business but the parents, and ten thousand books per year are refused admittance to school libraries. No one makes a fuss until it's something they think is just oh so wrong. It would be nice if, just once, people let others have values different than theirs, and would let other parents decide what they want their children to read or not read, without throwing a hissy fit.

What I find disgusting and racist are phrase like Tink of the Chilwen. That's despicable.

No, what would be nice is people actually allowing these types of books into schools instead of engaging in all this ridiculous handwringing.

There's already children in Isreal on both sides of the divide who don't see being an Isreali Jew or Palestinian as a bad thing. This isn't a new thing. I'm only a quarter of a century old and there were plenty of kids in my generation who grew up to be adult Isrealis and Palestinians that shared that view. And there's already plenty of people from my generation engaging in such realitionships in Isreal. Times are moving slowly there on this front, but things change a little every year. Trying to keep kids away from it by saying they can't be taught this book won't suddenly halt that change.

cornflake · Jan 10, 2016

Jamesaritchie said:
So? It amazes me how many people get upset when someone doesn't want their children to read a book. It's no one's damned business but the parents, and ten thousand books per year are refused admittance to school libraries. No one makes a fuss until it's something they think is just oh so wrong. It would be nice if, just once, people let others have values different than theirs, and would let other parents decide what they want their children to read or not read, without throwing a hissy fit.

What I find disgusting and racist are phrase like Tink of the Chilwen. That's despicable.

The people who get angry at idiots trying to ban books aren't generally suggesting parents can't limit their children's reading. They're saying it's imbecilic, antithetical to the central values of this country (when it happens here), and wrong, because what those ignoramuses are doing is NOT saying their kids can't read it. They're attempting to stop other people's kids from reading it.

Banning it from a library or a school curriculum has zero to do with their own kids; it's trying to control everyone. If they could control their own kids, there'd be no problem.

Latina Bunny · Jan 10, 2016

cornflake said:
....

They're attempting to stop other people's kids from reading it.

Banning it from a library or a school curriculum has zero to do with their own kids; it's trying to control everyone. If they could control their own kids, there'd be no problem.

Yes, this. I don't mind what parents with their own kids (outside of abuse and other safety/health serious situations, of course), but I do mind when those parents are trying to control everyone else's kids. It's hypocritical. Those offended parents need to mind their own business about other people's parenting as well!

Allow access of the books (or whatever) to everyone. Control your own kid(s) from accessing those books (or whatever), if you feel it's a problem. Don't control what other people do with their kids.

Maybe some other parents would like their own kids to have access to such books (or whatever).

It's up to you to control your own child if you feel your little Timmy will get his hands on such a book. Don't try to deny little Jose (who's not your kid!), from another family, from getting his hands on it and whose own parents wouldn't mind.

That should be what comes with the territory of that "mind your own business" mentality James was going on about.

Respect should come from all parties. Otherwise, I think it's somewhat hypocritical or contradictory...

Freedom of choice. It's a thing.

Also, responsiblity for your own child. That's also a thing, lol.

Ravioli · Jan 10, 2016

bunny-gypsy said:
That really sucks.

Um, probably dumb question, but I'm confused...

Are there laws regarding interfaith or interracial discrimination? Are people (in interfaith/interracial relationships) allowed to marry, or do the religious institutions have some strict rules about that?

Or is this more of a society just not being accepting, but the couples can still legally marry, etc? I'm just wondering what the general environment is like that such a theme in a book would be offensive.

(I'm not well-educated in the history and background about this place. I apologize for my ignorance.)

By law we're all pretty much equal, by application and enforcement of said laws, it's walking while black. And worse.

You can't get an interfaith/civil marriage in Israel, but the state accepts such marriages if performed abroad. Here, you can marry Jew/Jew, Muslim/Muslim, Christian/Christian, None/None... but not mix.

Social acceptance is a huge issue because there isn't any. Many Jewish people I know, would say very nasty things about a Jewish woman who dates an Arab, be it Muslim, Christian, or, though not identifying as Arabs but lumped in with them, Druze or Bedouin. There is a huge social pressure for Jews to stay among themselves, and judgement for any Jew who says NOPE to that. Calling you names and even wishing death upon you for dating Arabs, is socially acceptable here. Obviously we also have a couple KKKs.

The other way around, Arab's, Druze and Bedouin attitudes toward interfaith relationships, I can't really tell you. But my entourage and family being mostly Jewish, I know I got lucky with my Jewish boyfriend, because his eating pork and shrimps is still more acceptable for my Jewish entourage than my ex who was a Muslim Bedouin, non-religious, modern, highly educated, gentle, intelligent, animal-loving, giving,...
Some gems I heard on my relationships with Arabs: "Eeeeeeew make sure you use a condom, god knows what diseases those animals carry / Eeeeeeeew why don't you go to Gaza and blow yourself up with your 10 children you terrorist ho". Of course, everyone was clairvoyant and knew I would at some point be abused because all Arab men are wife beaters. This is typical. My aunt tried to break us up to hook me up with a dude twice my age because at least he was Jewish....

I recently changed my Facebook profile picture to my avatar here, changed my name to something almost gender-neutral, and the address to "they". I speak in the male voice (Hebrew distinguishes: he goes, she goesette, like). Mainly because I don't like being hit on every time I post an ad or ask for help. Before, identifying as the cis white-looking and presumably Jewish woman I am, I got away with the word "bitch", but since I use an Arab-looking bloke's face with a male voice, Jewish women tear into me when I use the word in any context other than female dogs. Now I'm "typical" and "probably raped a girl", and a mysogynist and what have you.

I'm not trying to paint Jews as bad people. The problem is right-wing Zionism that has become the Israeli Jewish pet ideology, plus fear mongering about terrorism and assimilation decimating the Jewish people. Judaism isn't the problem, it's nationalism.

Jamesaritchie, I don't care what the individual parent approves of. I care that a politician with authority fuels the flames of ethnic hatred which is strongly characterized by military-on-civilian violence in these 1.5 countries. As long as Arabs are considered a threat to the Jewish identity and "blood purity", they are fair game. Life starts in the bedroom, and if interfaith relationships in the bedroom are "ew", they can't work out socially either.

I want to date whoever I want and not be treated like the Aryan woman in Nazi Germany who dates a Jew. Seriously, there are hate groups funded by the people to break up such couples, there are threats of violence, rape, and murder, disownments, violence, and harassment when a Jewish person is caught dating an Arab, especially if the Jew is the woman.

Also, I'm curious as to what is racist about a sarcastic, misspelled "Think of the children".

Maze Runner · Jan 10, 2016

Ravioli said:
Some gems I heard on my relationships with Arabs: "Eeeeeeew make sure you use a condom, god knows what diseases those animals carry / Eeeeeeeew why don't you go to Gaza and blow yourself up with your 10 children you terrorist ho". Of course, everyone was clairvoyant and knew I would at some point be abused because all Arab men are wife beaters. This is typical. My aunt tried to break us up to hook me up with a dude twice my age because at least he was Jewish....

I always find it particularly distasteful when historically oppressed people who've been victimized by racism and hate exhibit those same characteristics towards other races, religions, etc. 'Course, denying Jews, Blacks, Latinos or Arabs the right to be flawed, the right to suffer from the same mental conditions as anyone else is a form of exclusion itself. And I guess the truth is a common reaction to oppression is to feel a need to oppress. Just as a common reaction to being hated is to hate, but I guess you'd wish to see a little more compassion on the part of those who've been victims themselves. Not singling out Israelis here. I've seen this tendency in other marginalized groups, mostly in the one I belong to, due to frequent access.

Sammie · Jan 10, 2016

Bunny-gypsy, no need to apologize it's perfectly good question. To be truthful as far a I know no institution would refuse interfaith marriage, they are not suppose to refuse you. However it's been known that they will flat out refuse specifically for a Palestinian and Jewish marriage. Most of the Palestinian and Jewish marriages that I know both or either party have married outside of Palestine. Israelis don't approve, Palestinians don't approve, and it dates back all the way back to the dawning of time.
Well in actuality if you look back at Andalusian times there were so many interfaith marriages and it was approved and in fact encouraged. Loads of Jewish and Muslim marriages.

It's not forbidden religion wise to marry outside of your faith however the problem is society. Society would never approve of specifically a Jewish and Muslim marriage. I have seen many Muslim and Christian marriages happen in Palestine, but in Palestine a Jewish and Muslim not really. They almost always marry outside of the country because due to the immense disapproval of society. It can be tough with society throwing nasty looks and hurtful words your way all the time.

Ravioli, I'm so sorry that must have been a tough to deal with. Society can be such a little twerp

Maze Runner, the problem is that a lot of Palestinians have a difficult time of separating Zionism from Judaism. Like how the generalization that if you are a Muslim you are a terrorist based off of a handful of experiences that in actuality were not even true Muslims if they committed such acts. Us Palestinians have been under an oppression, that nobody gives a damn about, that we became like others making a label to generalize the whole. I don't excuse the behavior it's something that the new generation is learning bit by bit not to generalize the whole. Sadly though it's something when you are exposed to in humane treatment at such a young age it's hard to scrub the whole generalization away.

Let me tell you something from experience, how is a 4 year old girl sitting on a tricycle crying her heart out in fear while IDF soliders raid her house for her father, only to have one in humane person point a gun straight at her forehead and tell her "shush"? How is she suppose to know that all Jews aren't bad based off of that? Or that girl that's walking home minding her business when an IDF solider stops her to harass her and threaten to rape her? It's a difficult life there guys, just so difficult.

And the problem is Zionism, always will be...

Maze Runner · Jan 10, 2016

You're right, of course. With war or occupation or slavery it's probably next to impossible to separate that from the race of the perpetrator. I've led a sheltered life, growing up in America. I can't imagine what you must have felt as that four year old girl and how indelible that was and is in your mind. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. It just seems such an endless, discouraging cycle.

Ravioli · Jan 11, 2016

Maze Runner said:
I always find it particularly distasteful when historically oppressed people who've been victimized by racism and hate exhibit those same characteristics towards other races, religions, etc. 'Course, denying Jews, Blacks, Latinos or Arabs the right to be flawed, the right to suffer from the same mental conditions as anyone else is a form of exclusion itself. And I guess the truth is a common reaction to oppression is to feel a need to oppress. Just as a common reaction to being hated is to hate, but I guess you'd wish to see a little more compassion on the part of those who've been victims themselves. Not singling out Israelis here. I've seen this tendency in other marginalized groups, mostly in the one I belong to, due to frequent access.

Yup. My own family hasn't been affected by the Holocaust as they're Arab Jews - well, today they call it Mizrachi since Arab is a dirty word..? - but since the Jewish people love to pretend to all be One Big Family, I dump as much responsibility on Jews without roots in Nazi Europe. I keep saying, in light of Germany's huge move to help refugees, look at the irony. Look who learned what lessons. Look what Germany is doing, look what Israel is doing. A huge display of the criminal being rehabbed, and the victim having become the bully. Like, there are thousands of asylum requests filed by African refugees, and there isn't even an instance to process them.... they're fenced in in the DESERT awaiting whatever, because whatever.

Yeah, any minority gets to have flaws and be laced with a-holes, it's just human nature. But to be so blatantly hate-filled and bigoted while wallowing in self-pity for being hated, no. Just, no.

Sammie said:
Ravioli, I'm so sorry that must have been a tough to deal with. Society can be such a little twerp

Oh, it was a blessing in disguise. It cured me of my blind zionism, and showed me whom to cut out of my life, even if family. It's still disgusting.

Maze Runner, the problem is that a lot of Palestinians have a difficult time of separating Zionism from Judaism. Like how the generalization that if you are a Muslim you are a terrorist based off of a handful of experiences that in actuality were not even true Muslims if they committed such acts. Us Palestinians have been under an oppression, that nobody gives a damn about, that we became like others making a label to generalize the whole. I don't excuse the behavior it's something that the new generation is learning bit by bit not to generalize the whole. Sadly though it's something when you are exposed to in humane treatment at such a young age it's hard to scrub the whole generalization away.

The problem is that it's mutual. I mean, it's known since 9/11 that one terrorist represents all Muslims /sarcasm
In Israel it's the same. Most people of any minority are good or "neutral" people, because being outright violent isn't our basic programming. Muslims, Zionists, no group is born dangerous. But one Muslim stabs a Jew or blows up several, it's "Arabs are our enemies!", "All Arabs want the Jewish people dead!", "DEATH TO ARABS!".
And the dumbest thing is though, that this goes through in adulthood and while Palestinians kind of have an excuse for keeping the bigotry for not meeting any Jews other than soldiers and demolition squads, Israeli Jews live among loads and loads of perfectly harmless Arabs and still don't lose the hate.

I like to compare Arabs to Pitbulls, and I'm not saying I equate people to dogs. I mean: most Pitbulls are perfectly good (or uninteresting) dogs, but the few a-hole specimens are the most interesting, so of course they bark the loudest and they make all the headlines. Nice, regular dogs don't interest anyone. They may be the majority, but nobody hears about them. The average Joe's only exposure to Pitbulls is the headlines about mauled children. So people think they know Pitbulls are dangerous. Same with Arabs. Nobody notices the 50 Arabs standing around you staring at their smartphones or doing their jobs. Now that one a-hole blowing himself up on the other hand...

Kylabelle · Jan 11, 2016

So, can we conclude that a role of literature is to address such imbalances in human culture? Does such fiction serve to bring consciousness there, to offer people the opportunity to feel and think a bit differently in face of their deeply ingrained biases? (Please note that I say "a role" and not "the role".)

And then of course, material such as the fiction represented in the OP's link is considered deeply threatening. By whom? By whomever stands to benefit from preserving the status quo, no matter how painful and destructive it might be for most.

There's a bumper sticker slogan that made the rounds in the U.S. some years back: Art Saves Lives.

Maybe it's not just a hip joke.

Emermouse · Jan 11, 2016

When I clicked on this thread, I thought the book in question would be the reprehensible romance someone wrote where a Jewish woman and Gentile Dude fall in love. Only it's set during WWII and said Jewish woman is in a Concentration Camp and the Gentile Dude is a guard at said camp. Also, the Jewish woman eventually converts to Christianity. And from what I heard, the author was shocked, shocked that people might take offense at said story. Claimed to be trying to do a re-telling of the Story of Esther where Esther uses her relationship to the king to save her people. But author forgot that Esther saved her people but still remained Jewish.

I'd understand why people would want to ban the hell out of that book even if I don't support book banning in general. But the one mentioned?! Yeah, it's times like this where you have to ask the Book Banner point-blank, "What are you afraid that people will learn if they read this book?" Are they afraid that people might discover that the scary Other is actually, y'know, human and not that different from them?

Ravioli · Jan 11, 2016

Emermouse said:
When I clicked on this thread, I thought the book in question would be the reprehensible romance someone wrote where a Jewish woman and Gentile Dude fall in love. Only it's set during WWII and said Jewish woman is in a Concentration Camp and the Gentile Dude is a guard at said camp. Also, the Jewish woman eventually converts to Christianity. And from what I heard, the author was shocked, shocked that people might take offense at said story. Claimed to be trying to do a re-telling of the Story of Esther where Esther uses her relationship to the king to save her people. But author forgot that Esther saved her people but still remained Jewish.

I'd understand why people would want to ban the hell out of that book even if I don't support book banning in general. But the one mentioned?! Yeah, it's times like this where you have to ask the Book Banner point-blank, "What are you afraid that people will learn if they read this book?" Are they afraid that people might discover that the scary Other is actually, y'know, human and not that different from them?

The sullying of Jewish blood. God forbid. And no, this attitude hasn't been flaunted in a context of Jews before, no.

The safunny (sad-funny) thing is, one "politically correct" way to verbally other Arabs is to call them "cousins", because just flat out saying "Arabs" in a negative context, well, that would be racist. You call someone a relatively close family member, and then you treat them like that? K.

Emermouse · Jan 12, 2016

Also, I feel a need to air a pet peeve. Sorry if it is only tangentially related to the discussion at hand. Pet Peeve: people who use the words "Palestinian" and "Muslim" or people who use the words "Arab" and "Muslim" interchangeably.

Muslim refers to a practitioner of the Islamic faith. Whereas Arab and Palestinian are racial terms. You can be an Arab without being a Muslim and be a Muslim without being an Arab. Same goes for Palestinian and Muslim.

Of course, race is in itself a social construct, but unfortunately it's a construct that's shaped much of our world, so knowing that it's a construct doesn't allow us to ignore the ramifications of it, unfortunately.

Ravioli · Jan 13, 2016

Emermouse said:
Also, I feel a need to air a pet peeve. Sorry if it is only tangentially related to the discussion at hand. Pet Peeve: people who use the words "Palestinian" and "Muslim" or people who use the words "Arab" and "Muslim" interchangeably.

Muslim refers to a practitioner of the Islamic faith. Whereas Arab and Palestinian are racial terms. You can be an Arab without being a Muslim and be a Muslim without being an Arab. Same goes for Palestinian and Muslim.

Of course, race is in itself a social construct, but unfortunately it's a construct that's shaped much of our world, so knowing that it's a construct doesn't allow us to ignore the ramifications of it, unfortunately.

Welp, in Israel they're all lumped in together as Arabs and if you ask the loud and powerful right, "a good Arab is a dead Arab". Nevermind Christian Arabs are the most educated group in Israel and hence, indispensable because otherwise the national average IQ would fall even lower. It's 94 as it is. And the others are born here and hence entitled to living in peace on this land...

Interfaith romance demonized in Israel over educational concerns

Ravioli

Crazy Cat Lady

Kylabelle

unaccounted for

Latina Bunny

Lover of Contemporary/Fantasy Romance (she/her)

Lillith1991

The Hobbit-Vulcan hybrid

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

Latina Bunny

Lover of Contemporary/Fantasy Romance (she/her)

Ravioli

Crazy Cat Lady

Maze Runner

Sammie

Maze Runner

Ravioli

Crazy Cat Lady

Kylabelle

unaccounted for

Emermouse

Ravioli

Crazy Cat Lady

Emermouse

Ravioli

Crazy Cat Lady