Query question re: dual POV

be frank · Dec 26, 2015

I'm currently working on my dual POV 1st person YA thriller (hopefully this is the last edit!). For the last couple of months, I have been concurrently revising my query letter. (Man, is it hard to boil it down to 250 enticing words!)

Although there are two MCs, the story is really MC1's. The chapters aren't even split equally between them (they're ~60% MC1 and only ~40% MC2).

I've written various versions of the query, but it always gets messy when I try to work in MC2. When I leave him out, the query reads much better (At least, I think it does ... I guess I'll find out in QLH at some point if I'm brave enough!).

I'm pretty happy with where the query is right now. BUT, if I'm lucky enough to have some bites for partials/fulls (fingers-crossed), would an agent think "WTF?" when they see there's another MC who didn't even crack a passing mention in the query?

K-Mark · Dec 26, 2015

I think you should mention MC2. They are getting 40% and if the agent asks for a sample, it won't totally take them off guard. I have a dual POV novel and I had some success with mentioning both MC's in the query. My query went something like this - MC mentioned in first paragraph, 2nd MC mentioned in next paragraph, 3rd paragraph ties up their relationship.

Hope that helps!

be frank · Dec 26, 2015

Thanks, K-Mark.

I guess my problem is that MC2's role is mainly to observe MC1 from an outsider's perspective (ie: who MC1 is is radically different to how other people see her). MC2 gets inadvertently caught up in MC1's drama, and though he has minor sub-plots of his own, he's really there to support MC1's story.

At one point, I even thought I'd try cut MC2's POV completely, but the story just didn't hold together without it.

Every time I try shoe-horn him into the query, it loses it's clarity completely.

K-Mark · Dec 26, 2015

Maybe write one with and one without and post them in the Query Letter thread and see how people react.

be frank · Dec 26, 2015

Yeah, I'll probably end up doing that. I look forward to having both ripped to shreds

LittleKiwi · Dec 26, 2015

Maybe take a peek at this one:

http://queryshark.blogspot.com.au/2011/03/199-ftw.html

Whenever anyone talks about difficulty including other POVs I think of this.

be frank · Dec 26, 2015

Thanks, LittleKiwi.

I've actually read that one (I've read almost all of QueryShark - I find it equal parts informative and hilarious). Problem is, if I apply that query to my book, my MC1 is probably Emily's equivalent. "Harold's" character is my antagonist (NOT a POV character). My MC2 is ... somewhat peripheral, which is why it's hard to organically work him in.

MC1 is busy dealing with antagonist and the police, which is difficult enough to convey in the query without bringing in "oh, and there's this classmate who's curious about her".

Sigh.

be frank · Dec 27, 2015

Hmm, am thinking I could maybe do the closer as something like:

[INSERT TITLE HERE] is a dual POV 85,000 word YA thriller.

That'll give some warning it's dual POV, but hopefully by the time the agent gets to the end, he/she will be intrigued enough with the premise to not be overly concerned with who the other POV is.

Will still try to write another query with MC2 in it. Somehow.

Aggy B. · Dec 27, 2015

Here's a query I wrote that had dual MCs. Note that the secondary MC has his own arc and goals. I did focus primarily on the part of his arc that intersected with the primary MCs arc for the query (leaving out a several subplots that are unique to him).

mayqueen · Dec 27, 2015

I don't think finding out that the manuscript has multiple POVs would make an agent confused. I have queried multiple POV manuscripts with a singular POV query. A query should generally be one character with one problem and one set of stakes. You don't have room for anything more. (The exception is generally romance, however.)

Get yourself into QLH to read and critique other queries, even if you don't post your own. It's the fastest and easiest way to get a sense of what works or doesn't work in a query.

be frank · Dec 27, 2015

Thanks, Aggy B. and mayqueen.

Believe me, I have reads lots of queries. Lots and lots of queries ... in QLH and QueryShark and elsewhere. I actually came up with a solution to my issue at 3am (insomnia is wonderful for my writing brain sometimes) but will find out when I gather some courage (and hit 50 posts).

PS: This is definitely not a romance!

quicklime · Dec 28, 2015

Deal w/ the main protagonist; if the query works, and the first couple pages work, they will keep going. Adding Protag #2 just muddies the waters in most cases.

JJ Litke · Dec 28, 2015

quicklime said:
Deal w/ the main protagonist; if the query works, and the first couple pages work, they will keep going. Adding Protag #2 just muddies the waters in most cases.

Yes, and don't trick yourself into thinking that more than one POV is so exceptional that it must be included in the query. QLH and QueryShark both frequently mention that your focus should be one character, one problem, one set of stakes. Aggy's query does a good job of that, including the second POV character without losing focus on the first.

quicklime · Dec 28, 2015

JJ Litke said:
Yes, and don't trick yourself into thinking that more than one POV is so exceptional that it must be included in the query. .

ugh, this....and this, and this x 100000000

"Good guy vs bad guy, alternating POV in each chapter" is I don't even know what percentage of modern mystery, thriller, horror, and espionage-type titles.

"Main Good Guy vs His Toadie, with or without Bad Guy, in alternating chapters," is a close second--this notion the agent will be thrown for a loop if the query doesn't mention all the "thinkin-parts folks" suggests either the querier doesn't know much about the market, or they fear the agent doesn't....I'm not an agent myself, but I'd be damn nervous about signing with one who couldn't figure out why a query about "Pitta needs to kill Aaron before the Sherriff finds him, or he finds her" begins with Aaron.......its one thing to say they may opt for a trim or re-write, but I've never bought the idea they'd somehow be confused, like they'd never picked up a book without pop-out pictures, if you didn't list every fricking character....

be frank · Dec 28, 2015

Hi, quicklime. Thanks for the input. "Muddies the waters" is a good way to put it - that's what I'm finding.

I'll post the query in QLH at some point and see what everyone thinks.

Quickbread · Dec 29, 2015

How secondary is the 2nd MC in terms of the story itself? Is that character pivotal to what happens to the primary MC? If yes, I think working them both into the query may be the right answer. If the character is so secondary that their role is primarily to give a different slant on the story than the first MC is able to, then you're probably fine without the 2nd MC in the query.

In either case, I do like the idea of mentioning in the last sentence that it's a dual POV novel since it will set the agent's expectations properly for the manuscript.

be frank · Dec 29, 2015

JJ Litke said:
Yes, and don't trick yourself into thinking that more than one POV is so exceptional that it must be included in the query.

Sorry, JJ Litke, don't know why I hadn't seen your reply previously - I swear it wasn't there earlier!! I definitely don't regard both POV characters as equals. Honestly, the moment I stopped trying to work in MC2, the query just seemed to fall into place. I think. We'll find out what you lovely folks all think at some point.

"Good guy vs bad guy, alternating POV in each chapter"

Definitely not the case in my MS. Not that MC2 is the antagonist (he isn't), but the POV changes only when the story calls for it. That's why MC1 dominates - it's her story. MC2 is particularly useful when I need to get some info across that MC1 isn't privy to (one downside of using 1st person). Also ... see below.

If the character is so secondary that their role is primarily to give a different slant on the story than the first MC is able to, then you're probably fine without the 2nd MC in the query.

Pretty much this. He's a Greek Chorus (for want of a better term) - an observer of what's happening with MC1, though he does get sucked into the action. His other role is, well ... this is a first person, present tense thriller, and having MC2 there makes it less certain that MC1 is going to survive...

Thanks everyone for your help with this

Fuchsia Groan · Dec 29, 2015

My book is similar in terms of the two first-person POV characters, and I went back and forth on this a million times when writing and rewriting my query. Most critters told me to take out any mention of the second POV, who is essentially a love interest with his own small story arc. I did that and made the query focus on the relationship between the MC and the antagonist.

FWIW, the publisher's blurb for the book DOES mention the second POV character, but only once, and I think that's mainly to clue the reader in that there's a romance.

Punkin · Jan 17, 2016

In my mind, the problem isn't the query. Many agents and publishers will have a problem with multiple POV's, no matter how good the pitch.

Old Hack · Jan 17, 2016

Punkin said:
In my mind, the problem isn't the query. Many agents and publishers will have a problem with multiple POV's, no matter how good the pitch.

I've not seen anyone object to a multiple-POV book just because it has multiple PsOV. I have seen agents and editors object to books with multiple PsOV because they weren't written well enough, but not because of the POV issue specifically.

Aggy B. · Jan 17, 2016

Punkin said:
In my mind, the problem isn't the query. Many agents and publishers will have a problem with multiple POV's, no matter how good the pitch.

Yes. None of the agents who requested material when I was querying mentioned the multiple PsOV as a problem when they passed on it. Nor did the agent I signed with.

As with most things in a MS, if it's done well they won't care. (Now, individual agents might have a preference one way or another, but there's very little widespread distaste for specific elements the way a lot of folks say. I can't tell you how many times I've had folks tell me they don't like 1st person POV and I should probably write in 3rd because "1st person is a hard sell". But when it comes to short stories, I've sold more in 1st than I have in 3rd.)

Latina Bunny · Jan 17, 2016

Punkin said:
In my mind, the problem isn't the query. Many agents and publishers will have a problem with multiple POV's, no matter how good the pitch.

Um, no, I don't think so. If it's done horribly with head hopping and all that, then yes, that can be a potential problem with writing multi-POV stories, but just having multi-POVs in the first place in a story? No, not at all.

I mean, I'm a reader who can get lost easily, and I can no problem reading multi-POV stories and have enjoyed some, so I think a well-read agent would be fine with multiple POVs as well.

What about all those many, many books with multi POVs? Some are actually bestsellers, too.

How did anyone do some stories without doing multiple POVs? What about all those fantasy books? What about those multi family saga stories? Romances (especially multiple love partners)? Mystery books with the villains' and/or victim's POVs alongside the detective's? And so on...

Punkin · Jan 17, 2016

I've been at this for a while, Bunny. Lots of agents and eds don't want books with multi-POV's. Esp from first-timers.

Punkin · Jan 17, 2016

Aggy B. said:
None of the agents who requested material when I was querying mentioned the multiple PsOV as a problem when they passed on it.

Oh, you expected a comprehensive critique? Not likely.

Cyia · Jan 17, 2016

Punkin said:
I've been at this for a while, Bunny. Lots of agents and eds don't want books with multi-POV's. Esp from first-timers.

Yeah... no. That's not even remotely accurate.

Dual POV is fairly common, if not standard in thriller/crime novels (pretty much every Patterson novel) where the MC gets one POV and the killer/villain/whatever gets the other. It's also common in romance (sometimes as 3rd person scene-shifts, rather than 1st person trade-offs) and downright epidemic in YA (Across the Universe/Legend/etc). It's not at all unusual or undesirable. It can, however, be difficult to encapsulate in a query or synopsis situation.

One way to address this is to have short paragraph from the fist MC's POV and a 2nd from the second MC's/antagonist's POV. Another would be to keep the focus on the main MC (the one with 60% of the novel), and drop a line in the query that says the book is alternating POV. Personally, I wouldn't do either. I'd focus on the main MC, make that presentation as tight as possible and then hope it hooked the agent as-is.

This is the route used with a book like Across the Universe, where the main character's early waking/near death and the ensuing mystery is what's highlighted, even though the male MC has as many chapters and the female. You can mention the secondary main character, but there's usually no need to devote more than a mention to them in the query. They will either support the main story, or they will oppose the main story, and it's the main story that you need to highlight. You can treat them like a subplot for clearer streamlining.

Query question re: dual POV

not a bloke, not named frank

Philly Phanatic

not a bloke, not named frank

Philly Phanatic

not a bloke, not named frank

not a bloke, not named frank

not a bloke, not named frank

Not as sweet as you think

practical experience, FTW

not a bloke, not named frank

all out of fucks to give

People are not wearing enough hats

all out of fucks to give

not a bloke, not named frank

not a bloke, not named frank

Becoming a laptop-human hybrid

Such a nasty woman

Not as sweet as you think

Lover of Contemporary/Fantasy Romance (she/her)

Rewriting My Destiny