Buying alot of guns (hypothetical)

stupidname1313 · Dec 25, 2015

So the other day I was bored and was thinking about prepping, as in doomsday prepping. Now, I don't believe that Obama is a fascist/communist/radical Islamist lizard-man from the center of the earth or whatever people believe these days (not that I have anything against people who do, it is a free country); prepping is just something I wanna do when I'm too obscenely rich to care about anything, right after I build a hospital and name it after the brief 2016 presidential hopeful 'Deez Nuts'. If I was to do this, I would wanna go all the way. I'm talking about a facility capable of sheltering a large community and provide the foundation for a city-state, if not a nation.

Anyways, while I'm pretty sure that I could easily get my hands on alot of the easy stuff (solar panels, fallout shelter, gas masks, MREs, seeds, water purifiers, livestock, textbooks, medical supplies, electronics, etc) and get an easy price estimate on said items, I'm not sure about firearms. Now what I was wondering is could a single individual with no criminal record purchase a large amount of firearms legally? I mean very large, something that would dwarf a personal gun collection. Basically the core of my question is how much would it cost to buy 750 M-14 rifles, 100 Ruger Mini-14 carbines, 100 high power sniper rifles (not sure which) , 50 Mossburg 500 shotguns, 1500 S&W M&P pistols, 5000 Colt Detective Special revolvers, and 200 Ruger Mark 3 pistols along with all the tools, spare parts, and ammo to keep them working for 150 years and if some billionaire was just to wake up one day and decided to get his hands on all these guns (even if only for the purpose of stowing them in a bunker for god knows how long) then what would be stopping him? Would the ATF care, as long as they did everything legally? Is it even possible to do this all legally? Would they have to go through a lot of trouble to get them (going through multiple vendors) or could they just place an order with the manufacturers? Also while I'm confident explosives and large caliber automatic weapons are out of the question, how hard would it to get a fleet of armored troop transports (legally)? I'm asking you, because even though I'm not really thinking of working this into a story, I figure this is the sort of place where people can safely ask weird questions like this.

Also I'm not like, crazy or anything, I just really like post apocalyptic stuff, like Fallout and Mad Max. I hope the laundry list I just gave to you is ludicrous enough to not be taken seriously as any sort of threat.

Helix · Dec 25, 2015

We've just corrected an eye-twitchingly misplaced apostrophe in another thread and now this.

stupidname1313 said:
Buying alot of guns (hypothetical)

Buying ~~alot~~ a lot of guns (hypothetical)

Pony. · Dec 25, 2015

The number of weapons you're thinking might require a federal fire arms dealer license, to aquire. Not entirely a bad thing, such a license would also help get wholesale pricing. The Mossbergs alone would retail for more than $22,000.

Jamesaritchie · Dec 26, 2015

Could you buy them? Yes, there are way to do so legally. Would there be a very detailed No, you can't buy guns in this number. Or anywhere close to it. At least not legally. If you buy three at a time, the ATF sees a big red flag. Multiple vendors won't help. Every vendor is connected. Not even a deal can buy that kind of bulk, even if the dealer had the cash. And when a dealer does buy guns in any amount, he has to account for each and every weapon.

For anything like that kind of volume, you'd have to get them on the black market.

You can legally buy large caliber fully automatic weapons. As long as the weapon is ins the registry, you're allowed to own it.

But why would an individual want to buy so many firearms? Chances are anyone who needs anything like this will already have it. Half my friends own tanks, and full auto weapons of several kinds, military vehicles, etc. But each bought there own. I don't think any of them own a Colt revolver, though, unless it's a single action that have for fun. Very few own a revolver of any kind.

Storm Surge · Dec 26, 2015

Jamesaritchie said:
No, you can't buy guns in this number. Or anywhere close to it. At least not legally. If you buy three at a time, the ATF sees a big red flag.

I was under the impression that you only fill out one 44-73 when purchasing guns regardless of the number of guns. The ATF would have to go rifle through all the paperwork at that particular store to see what you bought and how many.

Jamesaritchie said:
For anything like that kind of volume, you'd have to get them on the black market.

The classified section in my local newspaper has guns for sale. Unless you're in a universal background checks state, you can buy as many as you want and no one will know and it's perfectly legal. Might take some time to buy a large number of guns this way but it's doable.

I heard recently of a private individual who had taken it upon himself some years ago to buy ALL of a particular type of gun which had just been imported. We're talking possibly thousands of guns. Why someone would do that it beyond me, but the fact is people do it and don't immediately (or ever) get thrown in jail for it. So a ATF agent might show up and ask a couple questions. So what?

redfalcon · Dec 26, 2015

Don't forget the ammo and self loading equipment. If you get that rich you might be better off renting a special forces guy to train you how to prep.

Helsen · Dec 26, 2015

If you do everything legal you won't have an issue. The time to amass all this... well that might be a pain in the butt. Make sure though you've got something for when the zombies arrive.

King Neptune · Dec 26, 2015

If you want to buy those firearms legally, then I think you should contact a dealer in Somalia. There are other countries where you could buy those, but there might be other problems in those places. Where do you want them delivered? That would also make a difference. If you had a license, then you could order directly from the manufacturers, and that would lower the prices.

WeaselFire · Dec 26, 2015

Storm Surge said:
I was under the impression that you only fill out one 44-73 when purchasing guns regardless of the number of guns. The ATF would have to go rifle through all the paperwork at that particular store to see what you bought and how many.

You get five guns per 4473, that's what fits on the form. And you get reported as buying multiple guns. You won't find any gun store that has those quantities in stock.

Jeff

ironmikezero · Dec 26, 2015

In the US, if one has the fiscal resources, one can possibly acquire entire firearms collections by going through well connected federal firearms licensees (FFL). The transfer red tape is potentially considerable (especially if it involves tax stamps on restricted weapons, etc.), and the facilitation fees charged by the FFL holder(s) may be significant, but it is possible. It only takes money and patience.

WeaselFire · Dec 26, 2015

stupidname1313 said:
Basically the core of my question is how much would it cost to buy 750 M-14 rifles, 100 Ruger Mini-14 carbines, 100 high power sniper rifles (not sure which) , 50 Mossburg 500 shotguns, 1500 S&W M&P pistols, 5000 Colt Detective Special revolvers, and 200 Ruger Mark 3 pistols along with all the tools, spare parts, and ammo to keep them working for 150 years and if some billionaire was just to wake up one day and decided to get his hands on all these guns (even if only for the purpose of stowing them in a bunker for god knows how long) then what would be stopping him? Would the ATF care, as long as they did everything legally? Is it even possible to do this all legally? Would they have to go through a lot of trouble to get them (going through multiple vendors) or could they just place an order with the manufacturers? Also while I'm confident explosives and large caliber automatic weapons are out of the question, how hard would it to get a fleet of armored troop transports (legally)?

You can't buy an M14, that's a military designation. You're buying AR10s, though I think you really want AR15s.

Cost on all this depends on how you buy it, but your AR15s alone will run about a million bucks retail. Total, you're looking at the ten million dollar range for guns, add another five for ammo, maybe ten more for parts and then realize that you have to pay for storage, people, transport and so on. It's legal, but it will get a lot of government attention.

You can buy explosives, large caliber weapons and armored transports as well, again it just takes money. You need permits, licensing and a lot of time.

Oh, and a way to make Colt start manufacturing a revolver they discontinued two decades ago.

Jeff

RKarina · Dec 28, 2015

Several others have pointed out varying legalities here - the trouble is, it can depend on what state you are in. However, some issues exist no matter what.
In those quantities, you're going to attract government attention if you are going through legal channels.
Sure, money talks. And if you throw enough money and the right connections at the problem, you can conceivably come up with a way to get all of these weapons (or their equivalent, since, as has been pointed out, at least one is no longer manufactured).

But could an insanely rich person just walk into a local gun shop and order all of these things in one shot?
Highly unlikely. No gun shop carries that kind of stock, and most would be very hesitant to place that kind of custom order. Nor would a manufacturer just fill an order for John Q. Citizen.
So you're back to needing lots of money and great connections.
Your hypothetical character could conceivably get their own FFL - though there is still going to be mountains of paperwork and a lot of obstacles to acquiring an arsenal of that size.

The short answer is - to do this legally, your character would require several mountains of money, and would have to do this over time - not just overnight. And there would be records of all of these transactions.

Ditto just about everything else. Some explosives are relatively easy to obtain, with the right permits. Some are not.

With the right connections, and the right number of zeros after that dollar sign, just about anything is possible.
Whether or not it's legal... well... that can be open to interpretation.

Your safest bet may be to have the character contract with someone to provide him all of these things. Technically, none of the firearms purchases would be legal at that point (straw purchases are kinda frowned upon).

Pony. · Dec 28, 2015

Looking at the ATF web page getting a federal license is not that hard. It's a twisty, turny, redundant and in some respects totally assinine process, but if you have the funds and a clean background check it's far from difficult.

given the contex of the OP the only complication I see is the differnce between opening a business and building a personal stockpile of arms.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/who-eligible-firearms-license

cmhbob · Dec 28, 2015

stupidname1313 said:
750 M-14 rifles,

100 Ruger Mini-14 carbines,

100 high power sniper rifles (not sure which) ,

50 Mossburg 500 shotguns,

1500 S&W M&P pistols,

5000 Colt Detective Special revolvers, and

200 Ruger Mark 3

Pretty sure you got your questions about legality and logistics answered. I'd question your armory choices as well.

Instead of all those M-14s, I'd go with an equal amount of M-4/AR-15s. It's a lighter round (5.56 vs 7.62 in the M-14), but parts and magazines are much more common, and would remain so in your post-apoc world.

Not sure what your reasoning is for the Ruger Mini-14. But if you sub the AR platform for the M-14, you don't really need the Rugers.

I'd recommend something like the Remington 700 for your sniper platform, given that it's the basis for the US military M-24 and M-40 rifles. .338 Lapua seems to be a preferred caliber.

Not a bad choice for shotguns.

I'm curious about your handgun choices. The Ruger Mk III is hardly a defensive gun. I'd go for a large number of Glock, honestly. Aside from the fact that you'd have to find 5000 Colt revolvers, why would you need to many revolvers?

stupidname1313 · Dec 28, 2015

WeaselFire said:
You can't buy an M14, that's a military designation. You're buying AR10s, though I think you really want AR15s.

Cost on all this depends on how you buy it, but your AR15s alone will run about a million bucks retail. Total, you're looking at the ten million dollar range for guns, add another five for ammo, maybe ten more for parts and then realize that you have to pay for storage, people, transport and so on. It's legal, but it will get a lot of government attention.

You can buy explosives, large caliber weapons and armored transports as well, again it just takes money. You need permits, licensing and a lot of time.

Oh, and a way to make Colt start manufacturing a revolver they discontinued two decades ago.

Jeff

Oh, yeah. Didn't know that. Yeah I figured that AR-15s would be too much trouble to deal with because of all the stuff going on in the news right now and M-14s would be almost as useful for an army/self defense force also the the larger caliber would help should it's user encounter something larger than human.

As for the Colts, yeah I wasn't aware of that, but there should be plenty of revolvers in production that can fill that gap.

stupidname1313 · Dec 28, 2015

cmhbob said:
Pretty sure you got your questions about legality and logistics answered. I'd question your armory choices as well.

Instead of all those M-14s, I'd go with an equal amount of M-4/AR-15s. It's a lighter round (5.56 vs 7.62 in the M-14), but parts and magazines are much more common, and would remain so in your post-apoc world.

Not sure what your reasoning is for the Ruger Mini-14. But if you sub the AR platform for the M-14, you don't really need the Rugers.

I'd recommend something like the Remington 700 for your sniper platform, given that it's the basis for the US military M-24 and M-40 rifles. .338 Lapua seems to be a preferred caliber.

Not a bad choice for shotguns.

I'm curious about your handgun choices. The Ruger Mk III is hardly a defensive gun. I'd go for a large number of Glock, honestly. Aside from the fact that you'd have to find 5000 Colt revolvers, why would you need to many revolvers?

Well first off I assumed that that everything would be easier if I tried to limit myself to only American manufacturers. Secondly I wanted to create an armed force of 1000 people. That's what the first five weapons on the list would be used for. The M-14s would be service rifles and the Mini-14s are essentially the same weapon scaled down for 5.56 so it would make a good weapon for non-infantry personnel. As for .38 revolvers they, as well as a third of the M&Ps, are to arm the citizenry. Finally the Mk III would be used for training aspiring soldiers.

frimble3 · Dec 28, 2015

If the theoretical 'you' had all this money, why not make a deal with some smaller, financially-strapped country to buy the stuff for you? As a military/police purchase, I wouldn't think the amounts are eyebrow raising, the country could claim it's for militia use, in the anticipated riots.
They could ship it to your final destination/storage point in smaller quantities. By the way, why wouldn't you set up your city-state/nation on an offshore island (not necessarily off the shore of the U.S., either)? Distance itself would provide safety, and 'out-of-sight, out-of-mind' would make you less of a target. Make sure you've got an island with plenty of water, of course. Island-states have historically done well. I wonder what a Greek island is going for?

King Neptune · Dec 29, 2015

Since you will be building another country, you might want to look at weapons produced outside the U.S.A. FN makes some excellent assault weapons, and the Russian Kalashnikovs are also very good. FN (Fabrique National) is very familiar with purchases from small countries in odd places. Depending on which model of Kalashnikov you want, you might be able to find a manufacturer who doesn't care who you are.

WeaselFire · Dec 29, 2015

Pony. said:
Looking at the ATF web page getting a federal license is not that hard. It's a twisty, turny, redundant and in some respects totally assinine process, but if you have the funds and a clean background check it's far from difficult.

It's not that hard and there's really nothing twisty, turny or redundant about it. You get your local paperwork in order, zoning, business licensing, etc. then file paperwork, pay the fees and get the interview. Very straight forward.

However, you can't do this for personal consumption, you have to be in the business. If your intent is simply to buy a bunch of guns, getting a Federal Firearms License isn't the way it's done.

You simply contact a large firearms dealer and place the order. Then you wait.

Jeff

Tazlima · Dec 29, 2015

Helix said:
We've just corrected an eye-twitchingly misplaced apostrophe in another thread and now this.

Buying ~~alot~~ a lot of guns (hypothetical)

I think it's time for a Hyperbole and a Half break. Under these guidelines, "Alot of guns" sounds kind of awesome, like a porcupine with bullets.

WeaselFire · Dec 29, 2015

One of the base presumptions is the 150 years in the future part. First, firearms technology will change and all your current choices will be museum pieces. Second, most of these firearms and the ammo won't come out of 150 years of storage in usable condition. But more to the point, the purchaser and all associated with him will have been long dead, and the goals will likely have long ago died as well. Preppers don't prep for the distant future, they prep for the tomorrows they fear.

If you had the money to acquire the weapons, you'd have the money to set your destiny and meet your long term goals in far better ways.

Jeff

Buying alot of guns (hypothetical)

stupidname1313

Helix

socially distancing

Pony.

Aspiring supervillain

Jamesaritchie

Storm Surge

Surfin'

redfalcon

Helsen

King Neptune

WeaselFire

Benefactor Member

ironmikezero

practical experience, FTW

WeaselFire

Benefactor Member

RKarina

Pony.

Aspiring supervillain

cmhbob

Did...did I do that?

stupidname1313

stupidname1313

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

King Neptune

WeaselFire

Benefactor Member

Tazlima

WeaselFire

Benefactor Member