What 10,000 hours of practice looks like

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kaitie

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This is such a cool visual that I had to share. I know that we often talk about how it takes years of work to become truly skilled, and the oft-quoted amount is 10,000 hours. I also know that we tend, as people, to assume that people who are really good at something are good because of talent. It's inborn, and they were always good. Either you have it or you don't.

Yesterday my husband came across this link, which is various artists showing how their work has progressed over time. It's pretty amazing to actually visually be able to see the differences of practice and learning. I think what surprised me the most was actually seeing how some of the ones that are so stunning now started out average. Check it out, and remember it, especially if you're still in the earlier parts of the learning curve phase. If you practice, skills will come. ;)

http://www.boredpanda.com/drawing-skills-progress-before-after/
 

Jamesaritchie

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What's the point? None of them started out average. Each had enough talent to develop far faster than the average person. What no such chart shows you is all the tens of thousands of people who worked as hard, and as long, as these people, but who never got any better than these few were a year after starting. This is one of the problems with the whole practice theory. You only see the few molehill successes, and not the mountain range of failures who often worked hard and longer, but who lacked the talent.

Not that the ten thousand hours thing is at all scientific, or has any objectivity to it at all. It simply isn't. It's been discredited over and over and over, and still gets air time. Even with visual artists, you have to be extremely selective in the drawings you display to make the practice hours stand up.

Talent is real, and without it, you'll go nowhere in any discipline, even with a million hours of practice. The simple, scientific way to prove this is to look at the work habits of the failures, not merely at the work habits of the tiny few successes. Talent, like IQ, means that a person with talent learns far, far faster than one without talent. You don't really believe everyone learns at the same rate, do you? Or believe that if you work really, really hard for ten thousand hours, you'll then automatically be really, really good at whatever it is you're doing?

The truth is that people with talent display that talent immediately. They progress many times faster than those around them who lack talent, even with the same amount of work. If they actually do work hard, they almost always produce things very early on that sell, that are good, that those around them can't do after ten thousand hours, or a hundred thousand hours.

Picking one drawing someone did at twenty, and then one drawing done a few years later, and then one drawing done ten years after that not only proves nothing, it's pointless.

The same is true with writing. It's easy to find writer after writer after writer who has put in ten thousand hours, or far more, but who still can't write as well as another writer who sits down and writes his first piece with no practice at all. I know a lot of very stubborn writers who have been writing for longer than I have, some for forty years now, and they still can't write well. They put in time every day, some have written more novels than Stephen King, and almost as many short stories as Ray Bradbury. They taken classes, ve gone to college, read the books, read the articles, and write their asses off, and still, after almost forty years, can't write any better than they did when they first started.

Whether it's baseball, math, visual arts, writing, or carpentry, peole are not equal. We all have our own inpenatrable ceiling, and even if it could be shown that it takes each of us ten thousand hours to reach that ceiling, which it can't, all our ceilings would still be different heights. Let ten people put in ten thousand hours at the same thing, and some will still be bad, some will be good, and one may be great.
 

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I thought it was amazing. I especially loved the ones that showed the progression from year to year. I bet that after some of those original drawings, the artists were told they would never be great, or they looked at professionals' work and despaired of how they "could never" draw like that. Some started out okay and ended up amazing, others appeared amateurish, even childish, at the beginning. There was no one starting level that could tell you which final level would be most impressive.
 

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Occasionally I do agree with JAR, and this is one of those times. Wayne Gretzky with 100 hours was still way better at hockey than I could be with 10K or 100K hours. No amount of hours would make me anything other than suck at guitar, which is why I finally gave up. OTOH, within months of taking up computer programming, I was teaching things to the people who introduced me to it.
Innate talent means you get immediate and significant positive results from your attempts. Which reinforces desire and interest, which fuels further improvement, etc. Someone without talent will keep at it because they enjoy it, but eventually they'll stall. Someone without talent can improve with practice, and maybe become competent enough to hold down a job in the field, but not to shine.
The thing to do, though, is to look at it as a personal challenge, not as a competitive one. Whatever the subject, you'll be better with practice.
 
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kaitie

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What's the point? None of them started out average. Each had enough talent to develop far faster than the average person. What no such chart shows you is all the tens of thousands of people who worked as hard, and as long, as these people, but who never got any better than these few were a year after starting. This is one of the problems with the whole practice theory. You only see the few molehill successes, and not the mountain range of failures who often worked hard and longer, but who lacked the talent.

Not that the ten thousand hours thing is at all scientific, or has any objectivity to it at all. It simply isn't. It's been discredited over and over and over, and still gets air time. Even with visual artists, you have to be extremely selective in the drawings you display to make the practice hours stand up.

Talent is real, and without it, you'll go nowhere in any discipline, even with a million hours of practice. The simple, scientific way to prove this is to look at the work habits of the failures, not merely at the work habits of the tiny few successes. Talent, like IQ, means that a person with talent learns far, far faster than one without talent. You don't really believe everyone learns at the same rate, do you? Or believe that if you work really, really hard for ten thousand hours, you'll then automatically be really, really good at whatever it is you're doing?

The truth is that people with talent display that talent immediately. They progress many times faster than those around them who lack talent, even with the same amount of work. If they actually do work hard, they almost always produce things very early on that sell, that are good, that those around them can't do after ten thousand hours, or a hundred thousand hours.

Picking one drawing someone did at twenty, and then one drawing done a few years later, and then one drawing done ten years after that not only proves nothing, it's pointless.

The same is true with writing. It's easy to find writer after writer after writer who has put in ten thousand hours, or far more, but who still can't write as well as another writer who sits down and writes his first piece with no practice at all. I know a lot of very stubborn writers who have been writing for longer than I have, some for forty years now, and they still can't write well. They put in time every day, some have written more novels than Stephen King, and almost as many short stories as Ray Bradbury. They taken classes, ve gone to college, read the books, read the articles, and write their asses off, and still, after almost forty years, can't write any better than they did when they first started.

Whether it's baseball, math, visual arts, writing, or carpentry, peole are not equal. We all have our own inpenatrable ceiling, and even if it could be shown that it takes each of us ten thousand hours to reach that ceiling, which it can't, all our ceilings would still be different heights. Let ten people put in ten thousand hours at the same thing, and some will still be bad, some will be good, and one may be great.

I absolutely do not believe that it is even possible for a person to write for 10,000 hours and "not improve at all."

While I'm not doing it anymore at the moment, I spent several years teaching writing. The only students I had who "didn't improve at all" in a single semester were the students who a) didn't pay any attention and didn't try and just threw something together or cheated, or b) the students who literally couldn't string a sentence together. And for what it's worth, that latter group improves all the time, it just takes longer.

I'm someone without a lot of talent. Anything I've achieved has been through work. I don't know that I would say every person in the world has what it takes to write a best-selling novel, but I do firmly believe that if someone works hard, seeks out instruction and outside opinions, and has the diligence to keep trying and not give up, they could definitely become good enough to be published. Just as I believe that every student I've taught is capable of writing an A paper.
 

kaitie

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Occasionally I do agree with JAR, and this is one of those times. Wayne Gretzky with 100 hours was still way better at hockey than I could be with 10K or 100K hours. No amount of hours would make me anything other than suck at guitar, which is why I finally gave up. OTOH, within months of taking up computer programming, I was teaching things to the people who introduced me to it.
Innate talent means you get immediate and significant positive results from your attempts. Which reinforces desire and interest, which fuels further improvement, etc. Someone without talent will keep at it because they enjoy it, but eventually they'll stall. Someone without talent can improve with practice, and maybe become competent enough to hold down a job in the field, but not to shine.
The thing to do, though, is to look at it as a personal challenge, not as a competitive one. Whatever the subject, you'll be better with practice.

Similarly, a person with talent can fail to improve because he/she has talent and that's been enough to get by. A person with tons of talent and no drive will not do as well as a person without talent who has drive.
 

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Yes. And lest we devolve into yet another "talent vs. diligence" back and forth, let me add that even for those with talent, it can in early days sometimes seem that no amount of work could make the product get better, because improvements due to practice are often in unnoticeable, tiny increments.

So having a graphic depiction of the vast difference that can eventuat in the quality of a final product, with devoted practice over time, can be both useful and inspiring.
 

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Hmmm..... I'm afraid I agree more with JAR. Though he's more hard-line than me.

The thing about this that gets me is people with no talent at something trying and trying and trying because someone told them that if they just work hard they will be brilliant. No. They will be competent but that's it. And if that's enough, all well and good. But if they aren't satisfied with 'good' they will waste their life in frustration and pain. A life they could have spent doing something they have a talent for.

I've used this example before. I love to sing, on my own I sing along with the radio. But I won't do it in front of other people because I'm tone deaf and my voice is so flat I can slide it under a door. 1000k hours of practice won't do a thing about that.
 

kaitie

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This is depressing. :(

Gonna bug out for now. I thought it was inspiring and wanted to share. I didn't mean to start a debate, and honestly I don't have it in me right now to have one.
 

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What's the point? None of them started out average. Each had enough talent to develop far faster than the average person. What no such chart shows you is all the tens of thousands of people who worked as hard, and as long, as these people, but who never got any better than these few were a year after starting. This is one of the problems with the whole practice theory. You only see the few molehill successes, and not the mountain range of failures who often worked hard and longer, but who lacked the talent.

So what? Are you suggesting that practice is pointless? That we should all hang it up if we didn't show an aptitude for something from the get go? Too bad if you don't show talent. You're going to fail anyway. Sorry. That a little harsh, I think, and it renders these forums entirely moot. It also flips off the people who spend their lives teaching students creative writing and art. Kids don't start life knowing if they're good at something. They practice art first and figure out that they like doing it. Practice is essential to improving one's art. And success is bred on the back of failure. You fail so that you can learn from your mistakes. You fail so that you can improve. Not every author who has had their work published to critical acclaim started off expressing their talent. And maybe their only "talent" was brushing themselves off after failure and getting back at it to keep going.

What you seem to be glossing over is the passion that a person has for their art. Someone with no passion for their work can do the same thing for 10,000 hours and not improve. In that, I believe you are correct. But there's a difference between practice and deliberate practice. Deliberate practice is when someone practices something with the intent of getting better. That's where the passion comes in. Someone with no passion doesn't have the same drive to improve as someone who lives and breathes their art. Everybody starts off the same as everybody else with little to no skill. Everyone has to learn. Sure, there are a few outliers who are automatically good at something, but the majority of us are taught the same skills as everybody else. But if they have no passion to practice those skills, they won't advance. If you put a person who has a strong desire to improve their art--that is, they have a clear passion for it--then they will learn nuance and technique that makes their art stand out.

I don't think it's fair to tell someone that if they don't show a talent for something that they shouldn't try. There are plenty of people who possess passion for a subject but who showed little to no aptitude for it in the beginning. They will improve after practice due to their desire for improvement--they will engage in deliberate practice. Art is one part talent and two parts having the balls to keep doing it even when you suck--and having the insight to see where you can improve.
 
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Dennis E. Taylor

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This is depressing. :(

Gonna bug out for now. I thought it was inspiring and wanted to share. I didn't mean to start a debate, and honestly I don't have it in me right now to have one.

It is inspiring, and you shouldn't feel bad at all for posting it. But let's face it, the people in this forum will debate the color red, if nothing else is available. ;)

In terms of inspiration, it makes me want to spend some time trying to draw, just to see if I have anything there. Probably not, but since I've never really tried, I can't say for sure.

(That's like the old joke: Can you play the violin? I don't know, I've never tried. Bah BOOM boom.)
 

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Kaitie, I'm sorry. I know how that feels, just to not have it for debating.

And, addressing everyone here, as I said, I think this has the potential to be inspiring and helpful. There is absolutely no reason I can see why something that might inspire and help should have to be shot down because maybe it isn't so one hundred percent of the time, or maybe it isn't so in some individual's life experience.

We are different; we vary. I wish human beings could learn to just let that be okay, a lot more of the time than we do.

JAR basically turned this into a debate by asking "what's the point"? and what I wonder is why JAR cares so much, to expend all those words to argue that talent trumps work.

I could easily say "so what?" to that. The point, as has been said, is that many (not all) people find this kind of example helpful and inspiring. Those who don't? Why do you have to argue about that? Why can't you say something like, "glad it helps you, it doesn't do much for me."

If someone is utterly talentless at an art, or at writing specifically, and chooses to devote themselves to improving their skill at it, what skin off your nose is that? They will improve if they want to. They may never become what you would judge to be very good, but they will improve. It's their business whether that's worth it to them or not, don't you think?
 

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This is depressing. :(

Gonna bug out for now. I thought it was inspiring and wanted to share. I didn't mean to start a debate, and honestly I don't have it in me right now to have one.

Well I for one thought it was inspiring. I even bookmarked the site.
 

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They will improve if they want to. They may never become what you would judge to be very good, but they will improve. It's their business whether that's worth it to them or not, don't you think?

Totally. If someone gets enjoyment out of something, like I do out of singing, they should totally do it. Just don't expect to be great at it if you don't have the talent.

Kaitie, I'm sorry if I upset you with what I said. I didn't mean to. I just didn't agree with I thought you were saying. Yes, that link could be inspiring. But only to those that the talent in the first place.

I personally think children should be allowed to try as much stuff as possible. Cos then there is more chance of them finding out what they are good at.
 

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I look at it like I do beta notes. I've beta'd novels that felt like I was reading a published book, and I've beta'd ones that were not even remotely close to ready. In both cases, I beta to help the author, with the expectation that any notes I give can be used to help the novel. Now some of them might be overwhelming and sometimes the author might not be ready to hear what I have to say, but I believe that at whatever point the author is at, they could end up with a publishable novel (maybe not even this one, but maybe one in the future).

There may be people out there with no hope. Perhaps they cannot grasp the fundamentals of writing a sentence or telling a story. I'm sure there's a "tone deaf" equivalent to writing, but I think those people are few and far between. I think it's far more likely that most people give up or refuse to learn as they go, which looks pretty much the same as them having no hope of making it.

I never would've predicted how good some of those artists became based on their first sample. I do think it's inspirational. Who are we to say who shouldn't put in the work to get better?
 

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I think you're not getting me. I didn't say they shouldn't. I'm talking about expectations.

And I'm leaving this now cos I'm getting bored of repeating myself.
 

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Totally. If someone gets enjoyment out of something, like I do out of singing, they should totally do it. Just don't expect to be great at it if you don't have the talent.

Kaitie, I'm sorry if I upset you with what I said. I didn't mean to. I just didn't agree with I thought you were saying. Yes, that link could be inspiring. But only to those that the talent in the first place.

I personally think children should be allowed to try as much stuff as possible. Cos then there is more chance of them finding out what they are good at.

As I said above, I think the only real "talent" that most people have is the ability to learn from the mistakes they make in whatever they are passionately pursuing. They fail, then they go right back and try it again. That's their "talent." You can't judge the whole of society against the outliers. You can't ignore a human drive to succeed at something because you subjectively think they don't have talent for it when they first start out.
 

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I'd say the link also points out something equally valuable; even if you have talent, you won't get anywhere if you don't put the work in. That some people will be better at it than others is natural, but that's no reason to scorn those with less (or even no) talent.
 

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I think you're not getting me. I didn't say they shouldn't. I'm talking about expectations.

And I'm leaving this now cos I'm getting bored of repeating myself.

Well, I was speaking to the subject, not to any specific post, so I'm not sure what I was supposed to "get".
 

kaitie

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Totally. If someone gets enjoyment out of something, like I do out of singing, they should totally do it. Just don't expect to be great at it if you don't have the talent.

Kaitie, I'm sorry if I upset you with what I said. I didn't mean to. I just didn't agree with I thought you were saying. Yes, that link could be inspiring. But only to those that the talent in the first place.

I personally think children should be allowed to try as much stuff as possible. Cos then there is more chance of them finding out what they are good at.

I get it. It's also a conversation I've had more than once on here before.

I'm probably just being overly sensitive about it, but I'm not someone with talent. I can say that pretty comfortably because in a group of writers, I was always the low end of the scale. Any ability that I have has come from work. So it's pretty tough to hear, essentially, that I'm not ever going to succeed because I'm not someone with inherent talent, and the only people who will ever be good enough are those with talent.

On a good day, it's not hard for me to say that I disagree with that assertion, but I've had a rough few days, so it was just something I couldn't hear earlier. I apologize.

I think talent is an amazing thing, and I've seen people on here who I have no doubt are amazingly talented succeed because of that. But we're also a board that does a lot of teaching, and why teach if someone is unable to improve? I'm a teacher, and I tend to believe that anyone can learn. It might be easier for some than others, but I believe with hard work anyone can improve.

I might ever be as great as the best out there, but I'm okay with that. But I do think I can hang with those who have built on talent, even if I haven't.
 

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I'm more on the talent-is-innate side of the argument, but even if you don't believe you have innate talent, a quick look at the bestseller lists will tell you it's not a requisite to success. I also think talent is a continuum. Mario Lemieux on one end, lesser-known NHL players who made a career, and are better than 99% of the population but are on the bottom of the group of the best players on Earth on the other.

In addition, I think the belief that without talent, there's no reason to bother, (which I know miranda didn't say!) is harmful too. I know someone who was raised to succeed, and largely did and does in many areas, including music. While the person truly loves one instrument, however, he was arguably better at the other. If you can't be the best, don't bother, was ingrained, so the focus was on the other instrument, which is still played professionally. Could my friend have been as successful at the other? Probably, but...

Do what you love, but realize the limitations and act accordingly.
 

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How do you know whether the skill you have as a writer is innate or based on the work you've done on it (and your exposure to good writing) over the years, or if it's a blend of the two? And how can I tell whether the writer of a novel I love was a natural talent or if they're someone who was well taught and practiced a lot?

For that matter, what does a natural writing talent look like? Are there any children who are like a young Mozart, who wrote his first sonata at age 4, but with words? Do some kids come into the world spouting delightful metaphors with a childish lisp ("the dew shone in mommy's hair like a handful of carelessly strewn diamonds"), while others will always be at the level of, "It was all wet and shiny," and if they try to step beyond that, they'll be mocked for their painfully purple prose?

What percentage of highly-regarded writers from history started writing sophisticated literature as children, and how does this number compare to, say, child-prodigy composers and mathematical geniuses? Is genius always something that shows early, or can it lie latent and come out later in life? Are there any late-blooming literary geniuses?

The word "craft" is often applied to writing skill. It sounds like something you learn and practice, not something you can just do well by instinct. But does good craft=good writing? Are character creation, description, evocative language, and storytelling all aspects of craft, or is craft just about knowing where to put commas and how to use syntax and grammar? Is the innate talent--the thing you either have or you don't--an instinct that allows you to know which stories people want to hear and which characters they'll connect with?

And is the talent for knowing how to put words together in a near-perfect way without much prior exposure to literature or language, the way some kids start making their own songs with very little prior exposure to music? Or is it more an innate ability to absorb the nuances of language, from reading it and hearing it, over a longer period of time?

And is there an objective criteria for what is a superlative story versus one that's merely very, very good? Do we all agree who the best writers are in a genre? Do we all agree on who deserve to be called genius versus competent writers?

And who gets to decide who is a literary genius? Reviewers? Literature professors? Other writers? Editors? The masses? History?

I guess I keep coming back to that question? Am I any good as a writer? And if so, am I good because it's something I have actual talent for, or is it something I've just learned to do over the decades I've been alive, reading prodigiously and writing when I can?
 

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Interesting discussion.

My first thought was that I have talent. Then I got confused because who's to say if that's really having talent or just being conceited without cause, hahaha. I think I'll stick with the first thought, fruitself. :p
 

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Great article. Thanks for sharing it.

The "10,000 hours of practice" must be one of the most misunderstood concept of modern times. Let's be clear. It does not mean that anyone who puts in 10,000 of practice will be world champion at whatever discipline they choose. What it actually means is that most people who have made it to the top have put in 10,000 of focused practice.

Notice the difference? There is a set of people who have put in 10,000 hours. Some of them are world champions. Most of them are not. There is another set of people who are world champions. Most of them have put in 10,000 hours.

It is common sense when you think about it. The more we practise the better we get. But we can't all be world champion. The world champions will be drawn from those who have other attributes and better training.

Then we have the question of "innate talent". Malcolm Gladwell argues that this is a lot less important than people think. A child tries an activity - whether this is writing, sports, chess, whatever. If they enjoy this activity they do more of it. They become better than their peers which gives them encouragement to carry on with that activity. The outside world may see "innate talent". The child may think that they have "innate talent". But what they may actually have is years of positive feedback and encouragement.

If this theory is true, then we ought to see children becoming good at an activity simply if they are trained in that activity from an early age. And that is part of the evidence base for the 10,000 hours theory. We have examples like the Polgar sisters playing chess or the Williams sisters playing tennis or Tiger Woods who used to be able to play golf. In each case, their parents were able to develop "innate talent" through focused practice. In "Outliers" Gladwell makes a case for athletes being successful simply because of their date of birth. A child who was old for their school year would find sports easier than their younger classmates simply because they were bigger and stronger. This meant that they were picked for sports teams which in turn meant that they received better training and more positive affirmation. By the time that the kids were 16 or 18, the development difference with their peers was much less significant, but the effect of the better training was still there.

We don't know the balance between innate talent and practice. What seems to be the case is that a lot of what we think of as innate talent is actually childhood conditioning.

Put it another way. About half of the medals won by the Great Britain athletics team come from athletes who were educated at independent schools which represent around 7% of all schools in Great Britain. Children educated at independent schools don't have "innate talent". They have better facilities and training.

By contrast, soccer (which is played at almost every school) is fairly evenly split. Around 7% of professional soccer players come from independent schools, which mirrors the proportion of children who are educated in independent schools.

What I dislike intensely about the "innate talent" argument is that it is at the root of a considerable amount of historic prejudice. Women were denied the vote because they weren't felt to be as intelligent as men. Or white people were felt to be more intelligent than any other race. Or one religion over another. Working class people vs the middle classes. History is largely about one group of people thinking that they are innately better than another group.

What we are actually finding is that if you give people the same opportunities as each other than can produce more or less the same results. It is far less about a person's "innate talent" and far more about what opportunities they are given.
 

Lillith1991

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I tend to think of talent as innate. As far as I'm concerned talent is how fast and how much effort it takes someone to pick up a skill. People who have a talent for art pick up the different techniques at a much quicker pace than those who are simply good. The same can be said of sports, writing, acting etc. the techniques associated with those things come far easier to some people than to others with minimal effort. But talent alone doesn't mean crap if the person isn't interested in what comes easier to them or isn't encouraged in that direction.
 
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