Noble title and office

Kjbartolotta · Dec 16, 2015

Here's a question relating to my fantasy setting. Halar, the nation my story is set in has a peculiar political system, in that all the nobles in the kingdom are officially equal in rank (with the sole exception of the monarch). That's right, Polonophiles, it's the szlachta! Though I've tried to avoid copying Poland's history, Halar is heavily influenced by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. This had led to lots of fun and interesting worldbuilding experiments, but the hardest thing has been coming up with titles.

Nobility doesn't derive from vassalage in Halar, or even property, so traditional, English-style titles are way out. No duke or barons or viscounts. Looking back to Poland again, it is obvious that in such a system as this all the nobility would deck themselves out with offices. Castellan is probably a good one so far, I like Warden a lot, but it's a little GRRM-y, Marshal is obviously a good one, and I'm trying to come up with others. In the spirit of egalitarianism, the nobility calls each other 'brother' or 'sister', and generally they're just referred to as lord.

I'm toying with the idea of the title of 'lord' carrying across genders, women can inherit status equal to men, and 'lady' doesn't sound right. This might be confusing though, if someone were to be referred to as Lord Jennifer you would (possibly) assume she was a woman, if you refer to Lord Suusa who's gonna know? Of course, I could go all Ancillary Justice on it and remind the reader that gender's just a concept, but that's pretty high concept for the book I'm writing. I'm still working on it.

I'd appreciate any insight in to how this system would work, and what would be some relevant historic titles I could mooch for my setting. Pertaining to my last conversation topic, I've thought about using conlang titles, but that's probably a bad idea.

PeteMC · Dec 17, 2015

I'm not really sure what you're asking - if they're all equal can't they all just style themselves as "Lord Someone"?

"Lord" itself isn't an actual rank in the peerage anyway (that goes Monarch->Duke->Marquess->Earl->Viscount->Baron->Baronet->Knight in descending order of importance).

If you mean you want them to have individual "job title" type titles then there have been plenty of good ones you can pinch:

The Lord High Chamberlain
The High Constable
The Lord Marshal
The Lord High Admiral
The Lord Steward of the Royal Household
The Lord Chamberlain of the Royal Household
The Master of the Horse

and so on and so forth.

Kjbartolotta · Dec 17, 2015

You've more or less hit on what I'm asking about; good 'job titles' as well as traditional noble titles that don't necessarily imply rank. Lord would just be shorthand, since I don't have any word in English that cognate with Szlachta. You are right though, at it's most basic everyone is just Lord X and Lord Y, so that's probably how I'll be doing it the majority of the time. All those job titles you mention are excellent, and thank you. I am on the look out for titles like this that don't necessarily imply an attachment to the crown, and if at all possible titles that carry a hereditary inheritance. Of course, all those titles work in any case too, since a lot of times the actual jobs described are sinecure positions at best.

PeteMC · Dec 17, 2015

Okay got you, I understand now. The above are all real historical titles but there's no reason you can't extrapolate from them to make your own.

I’m just spitballing now but how about:

Keeper of the Keys
Master of the Ravens
Lord High Alchemist
Lord High Inquisitor
Lord High Judiciar
Warden of the Pass
Sovereign of the Eastern Mountains
Guardian of the Northern Shore
Sealord of the Isles
Lord Watcher of the Stars
Lord Recorder of the Tides
Commander of the Blades
First Knight of the Lance

etc etc - if there's one thing powerful people are good at it's thinking up titles that make them sound even more important than they are, and in a society where all nobility are supposedly equal I think that would happen even more than usual.

benbenberi · Dec 17, 2015

On the job title theme, there were large numbers of offices in pre-revolutionary France that could confer nobility on their possessors: all sorts of legal functions -- starting with presiding judges of the highest court(s), expand through all the other courts and all the tiers of the legal hierarchy. add every role & function in the royal bureaucracy and the royal household (PeteMC barely scratches the surface!) and multiply most of them to account for quarterly rotations and subordinate geographic regions. The Secretary of this, Commissioner of that, the Assistant Clerk of something, the Royal whatever -- each title was worth money and status, and the people who invented them all were sometimes very creative. There's no limit. If you want, I could collect some examples when I have a bit of time.

As for gender-neutral "Lord," -- it's an interesting concept. Why, if gendered titles are not relevant to the culture of your story, should it be necessary for the title to signal gender to the reader? I would propose that it's not, and that Lord Suusa is perfectly viable nomenclature regardless of their gender.

snafu1056 · Dec 17, 2015

Maybe call them boyars. Although that might be too tied to Russia

Stormlord · Dec 18, 2015

Honestly, I would probably make it up. Like mix some titles together to create a new one. I do that in my stories a lot.Sometimes you come up with some good mixes!

benbenberi · Dec 18, 2015

snafu1056 said:
Maybe call them boyars. Although that might be too tied to Russia

Boyar is definitely a specifically Russian (or more broadly, Slavic) reference IMO. Just as "mandarin" is Chinese, and "emir" is Arabic. When you use them, you bring along the cultural baggage. If that's not what's wanted, those aren't the words to use.

Lillith1991 · Dec 18, 2015

Kjbartolotta said:
You've more or less hit on what I'm asking about; good 'job titles' as well as traditional noble titles that don't necessarily imply rank. Lord would just be shorthand, since I don't have any word in English that cognate with Szlachta. You are right though, at it's most basic everyone is just Lord X and Lord Y, so that's probably how I'll be doing it the majority of the time. All those job titles you mention are excellent, and thank you. I am on the look out for titles like this that don't necessarily imply an attachment to the crown, and if at all possible titles that carry a hereditary inheritance. Of course, all those titles work in any case too, since a lot of times the actual jobs described are sinecure positions at best.

What's wrong with Lord and Lady to describe the nobles themselves and consort to describe their husband or wife? Seems to me that if they're equal regardless of gender, then defaulting to the male title is a bit weird. There's no reason to default to it in the system you're describing.

Tanydwr · Dec 19, 2015

Maybe consider the original 'jobs' of your aristocratic class as a whole? In most societies they were the warrior class, so perhaps they have a title that comes from that original function. Duke was from dux in Latin, and basically meant something like 'war leader,' and I'm pretty sure Marquis/Marquess is from someone who guarded the borders ('march lands' - like the English Marcher lords around the Welsh border). Earl is from Norse Jarl, which I think just denoted class, and replaced the Old English Ealder or Eolder, basically 'Elder,' from which we still get Alderman. I think Count, from comte, was something to do with being a companion to the king (this viscount 'vice-count,' or 'under-count'), and baron is of uncertain original, but might just mean 'freeman.' Lord and Lady are unique to English and come from hlæfweard literally 'keeper/guardian of the loaf' and hlæfdige 'kneader of the loaf,' basically indicating their positions as head of a household - not originally noble titles (which might be why kids are still told to give something 'to the lady' in shops!).

Hope that gives some ideas.

PeteMC · Dec 19, 2015

benbenberi said:
Boyar is definitely a specifically Russian (or more broadly, Slavic) reference IMO. Just as "mandarin" is Chinese, and "emir" is Arabic. When you use them, you bring along the cultural baggage. If that's not what's wanted, those aren't the words to use.

Yeah quite agree - culturally specific terms bring culturally specific expectations. I don't know a lot about Slavic history but if for example you call your nobility Earls I'll expect red velvet and ermine robes with coronets. Call them Mandarins and it'll be silk robes and long fingernails, etc. If you're actually inventing your own culture rather than riffing on history, don't do that.

Lillith1991 said:
What's wrong with Lord and Lady to describe the nobles themselves and consort to describe their husband or wife? Seems to me that if they're equal regardless of gender, then defaulting to the male title is a bit weird. There's no reason to default to it in the system you're describing.

Agreed - sorry, I sort of skipped over this in my original reply. Calling women "Lord <someone>" is just going to look odd. Lord and Lady are the titles, and there's absolutely no reason they can't be equal to each other in social standing. I don't know about "consort" though, that implies a status less than marriage. Traditionally when a ruling noble marries then their spouse styles themself to the next level down - hence in England we have Queen Elizabeth and her husband Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh. If you don't have ranks of nobility though this might be difficult - perhaps "Lady Elizabeth and her husband, the Honourable Philip" or something of that ilk?

Tanydwr said:
Lord and Lady are unique to English and come from hlæfweard literally 'keeper/guardian of the loaf' and hlæfdige 'kneader of the loaf,' basically indicating their positions as head of a household - not originally noble titles (which might be why kids are still told to give something 'to the lady' in shops!).

I didn't know that, thank you!

jwdoom · Dec 21, 2015

You could go (relatively) modern with something like Your Excellency or Excellence. Go wild with general superlatives and see what sticks.

Kjbartolotta · Dec 28, 2015

Came back from the holiday after forgetting to check this, big thank you to everyone cuz this has ended up being quite useful.

PeteMC- Guh, you got it! Thanks for all of those, might end up using some. I suppose I'm asking a silly question, you can virtually make up an infinity of pompous-sounding worthless titles if you want.

Benbenberi- I'm looking at Pre-Revolutionary France for ideas quite a bit, the main problem being that France was absolutist while the Kingdom of Halar is anything but. They're very good for coming up with titles attached to the crown though. I agree with you (agreeing with me) about the gender-neutral Lord thing, though vacilating.

Snafu1056- I'm still not entirely opposed to this idea, but I did so I'd call them szlachta. I'm trying really hard to work out in my head how to borrow whole-cloth aspects from Polish culture (clothing, government, you-name-it!), while still being clear this is not meant to be a Polish alt-culture. It's hard.

Stormlord- I assume by 'make it up' you mean 'as I go along'? Yeah, that would probably be the best way.

Lilith1991- You make a valid point too! I'm actually leaning towards this, I guess there's no reason Lady has to imply a lesser status.

Tanydwr- Yes, yes, thank you! 'Lord Companion', and 'Lord Freeman' are definitely going in, and I suppose I can do this for the Polish titles. Errgh, wish I knew Polish.

PeteMC again- Never though about the consort thing. It's an easy one though, Queen Elizabeth and her husband, Lord Philip. Royal family's status is kinda murky though. In Halar, not England.

JWDoom- It's a good idea, but the one trick there is that the noble culture tends to shy away from addressing one another as 'the glorious' or 'your eye-catchingly attractiveness', since it tends to go against the grain of their faux-egalitarianism.

Thanks again, everyone!

benbenberi · Dec 28, 2015

PeteMC said:
I don't know about "consort" though, that implies a status less than marriage.

Actually it doesn't -- are you perhaps thinking of "concubine"?

"Consort" has frequently been the title given to a reigning monarch's spouse to give them a formal status second only to the monarch -- Queen Consort or Prince Consort. A King Consort would be theoretically possible, but fraught with risk, since a King would normally be the highest title and just adding "consort" wouldn't necessarily safeguard a reigning queen's preeminence. (I believe that was possibly an issue in the reign of Mary I, who was married to Philip of Spain.) When William III and Mary II took power in England they did so as joint and equal monarchs, not as Queen and consort, so he was King and she was Queen and everybody knew who was really the boss. Victoria's husband Prince Albert was a notable Prince Consort.

2gregory · Dec 28, 2015

Kjbartolotta said:
I'm toying with the idea of the title of 'lord' carrying across genders, women can inherit status equal to men, and 'lady' doesn't sound right.

Stephen Donaldson does exactly this in his Chronicles of Thomas Covenant -- and that's only sold a bajillion copies (rounding to the nearest bazillion).

handsomegenius · Dec 28, 2015

I don't know that you can really still call it a nobility if title is not in some way connected to military control of land, with the occupants of that land owing some obligation to the particular noble. Would there be forts and castles in your world?

PeteMC · Dec 29, 2015

benbenberi said:
Actually it doesn't -- are you perhaps thinking of "concubine"?

Ah - yes I was, and you are of course quite right!

Kjbartolotta · Dec 29, 2015

Halar isn't exactly on board with generally equality, but the general rule is that is that if a woman gets to the throne, she's gonna be the boss and not some upstart husband of hers. This has been put to the test several times. Consort isn't really a title used, since most monarch's spouses are drawn from the nobility (or more rarely, from a foreign family) they tend to just keep their title and have a few more piled on top. Only the monarch stands above the nobility, not necessarily his or her family. Still torn on the lord/lady thing, lotta good points both ways and I'll just have to see where the draft takes me.

@handsomegenius- Oh, they control the land alright, with some hard-won rights establishing exactly when it's ok for a monarch to tell them what to do on their own land, and when it's not. Again, Poland, or to some extent the HRE are influences for this system of government. Historically, the pendulum swings back and forth on how much power a monarch has, the previous dynasty tried hard to centralize their power, the current dynasty came in on the promise of restoring the ancient rights of nobles. But then, you know how it is when politicians make promises. There are plenty of castles and forts, hella big ones, though the period of my setting is definitely early modern more than pure feudal so they're either falling in to disrepair or being upgraded against artillery.

Noble title and office

Kjbartolotta

Potentially has/is dog

PeteMC

@PeteMC666

Kjbartolotta

Potentially has/is dog

PeteMC

@PeteMC666

benbenberi

practical experience, FTW

snafu1056

Stormlord

Child of Thoth. I am the Scribe.

benbenberi

practical experience, FTW

Lillith1991

The Hobbit-Vulcan hybrid

Tanydwr

PeteMC

@PeteMC666

jwdoom

Kjbartolotta

Potentially has/is dog

benbenberi

practical experience, FTW

2gregory

Golden boy with feet of clay

handsomegenius

PeteMC

@PeteMC666

Kjbartolotta

Potentially has/is dog