Gunmen attack Mali hotel, take 170 hostage

Kylabelle · Nov 20, 2015

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...k-luxury-hotel-in-mali-capital-take-hostages/

Malian army commander Modibo Nama Traore told the Associated Press that 10 gunmen stormed the Radisson Blu hotel Friday morning shouting “Allahu Akbar” — “God is great” in Arabic — then fired on the guards and began taking hostages.

CNN is reporting that three people — two Malian citizens and a French citizen — have been killed in the standoff.

I checked the news this morning, as I had been unable to sleep much and wondered if something had happened, some new atrocity. This was the first article.

Oddly, my sadness is as much for what I believe is genuine Islam (as opposed to the attacking version) as it is for the targets in these scenarios. I know I won't be able to defend that very well, and I am not a believer, per se, but I wanted to make that statement. There is tremendous beauty in the language there, and that is one of the casualties of this eruption, along with human beings both Muslim and non-Muslim, and all the precious antiquities that have already been savaged.

May the true kindness of the deeply human heart have mercy on us all.

Maxinquaye · Nov 20, 2015

France has been involved in Mali for a long time fighting the local jihadists. It needn't have anything to do with Paris.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Mali_conflict

One of the reasons France just invoked Article 42.7 of the EU treaties, rather than Article 5 of NATO, is to get relief for its African operations which have strained resources in France.

Kylabelle · Nov 20, 2015

I wasn't intending to imply it had directly to do with Paris, but the two are part of a pattern, clearly. So, in that sense, it does, surely?

Here's a more complete recounting from Reuters, with a pertinent quote at the end:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/20/us-mali-attacks-idUSKCN0T90SK20151120#pSmX71PSuzkJMg08.97

In the wake of last week's Paris attacks, an Islamic State militant in Syria told Reuters the organization viewed France's military intervention in Mali as another reason to attack France and French interests.

"This is just the beginning. We also haven't forgotten what happened in Mali," said the non-Syrian fighter, who was contacted online by Reuters.

"The bitterness from Mali, the arrogance of the French, will not be forgotten at all."

Maxinquaye · Nov 20, 2015

Apologies, didn't mean to imply that you said any of the sort. But I just heard several journalists talk about this as "another attack on France" when this is in a country that's been fighting a civil war since 2012. Just wanted to nudge it away from it "being interesting only because of France's involvement". Listening to the journalists, it was like this was only interesting because it involved France. It's interesting even if it involves Africans!

Sorry if I was unclear.

Kylabelle · Nov 20, 2015

Thank you, and no apologies needed, and your explanation is a useful addition. Your comment did get me to question whether I was being drawn in by implications not really present, and that kind of questioning is always beneficial.

But no, this is interesting and important because it is part of the eruption of human beings violating other human beings in a general explosion of violence with Muslim and Middle Eastern perpetrators. The actual source of this eruption is harder to pinpoint than it would appear, I believe.

For example, in this article, four ex-military drone operators are calling out the U.S. military drone strikes as far more deadly to civilians than to jihadists, and calling what they were involved in "cowardly murder": http://news.yahoo.com/cowardly-murder-ex-drone-operators-speak-jobs-001824335.html

It may very well be that this has done more to radicalize and polarize the Middle East than any fundamentalist imams could hope to.

In an open letter to President Barack Obama, Defense Secretary Ashton Carter and CIA Director John Brennan, the four former drone operators said they were involved in the killing of innocent civilians, and had gone on to suffer Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

"We came to the realization that the innocent civilians we were killing only fueled the feelings of hatred that ignited terrorism and groups like (the Islamic State group), while also serving as a fundamental recruitment tool," the men wrote.

"This administration and its predecessors have built a drone program that is one of the most devastating driving forces for terrorism and destabilization around the world," they added.
....

In one case, Bryant said his drone team killed five tribal men and a camel traveling from Pakistan to Afghanistan, even though they weren't certain who they were or what they were doing.

"We waited for those men to settle down in their beds and then we killed them in their sleep," Bryant told the newspaper. "That was cowardly murder."

Maxinquaye · Nov 20, 2015

In a way, the Mali conflict is as complicated as the Syrian. But it's in Africa, so it doesn't get the airtime in our media. It's a four-way fight where the fortunes of war have ebbed to and fro, until Mali asked for French support and for support from the African Union. It's a country where the jihadist ascendancy was halted, basically. In 2012 and 2013 Al-Qaeda and Isis stormed forward and took many of the larger cities of the northern region where the fighting occured. Then they were beat back by the AU and French forces.

The cities were liberated. Also, the Tuareg insurgents who made common cause with the jihadists in 2012 didn't like what the jihadists were trying to do, and attacked them. So, the former allies fight each other more than they fight the Mali government.

Also, the government fell to a coup-detat in 2013, I believe, and introduced a lot of chaos in the regions they controlled. It's a mess.

Opportunistically, I suppose Isis would be interested to drag in France now. Operationally, I'm not sure yet. As I'm unsure of what's going on in Syria.

Kylabelle · Nov 20, 2015

Bernie Sanders has said that Muslim nations need to be the leadership in opposing ISIS and their ilk. I know we tend to hear little about such internal opposition movements, partly because it gets that complex really quickly, and broadcast journalism doesn't do complex very well.

Cyia · Nov 20, 2015

http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...k-gunmen-take-hostages-in-bamako-live-updates

I'm surprised this thread hasn't had more activity today.

Either way, the siege is over. Malian, French, and US military raided the hotel. So far, they're saying 27 dead, including 2 hostage-takers, and nearly 80 freed.

Vince524 · Nov 20, 2015

Kylabelle said:
Bernie Sanders has said that Muslim nations need to be the leadership in opposing ISIS and their ilk. I know we tend to hear little about such internal opposition movements, partly because it gets that complex really quickly, and broadcast journalism doesn't do complex very well.

I don't know if it's complicated or just unrealistic.

Sure, it would be best if Muslim countries were the ones going after ISIS and we didn't have to do anything, but we can't exactly force them to. We can cut deals, offer bribes and exert pressure, but they may not work and if you have to arm twist another country into doing it, then they're probably not going to do anything worth doing.

It's like you live in a neighborhood and there's a tree that might topple or have large branches fall. You say, it's closer to the house across the street, so they should do it. But you don't have any way of making them do it. Then the branch falls and crushes your car and you think, 'shoulda done it myself'.

Cyia said:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...k-gunmen-take-hostages-in-bamako-live-updates

I'm surprised this thread hasn't had more activity today.

Either way, the siege is over. Malian, French, and US military raided the hotel. So far, they're saying 27 dead, including 2 hostage-takers, and nearly 80 freed.

I imagine most people are at work and can't do much. Glad it's over and it's heartbreaking that it happened.

William Haskins · Nov 20, 2015

have we determined yet whether them yelling 'allahu akbar' indicated solidarity, celebration or derision?

or is it something that "real" muslims (which they aren't, of course) just say?

Kylabelle · Nov 20, 2015

In this instance, it was a battle cry.

Maze Runner · Nov 20, 2015

Kylabelle said:
Bernie Sanders has said that Muslim nations need to be the leadership in opposing ISIS and their ilk. I know we tend to hear little about such internal opposition movements, partly because it gets that complex really quickly, and broadcast journalism doesn't do complex very well.

I agree with him, but they'll need help.

Just a question that I hope isn't too off-topic, but did anyone see Charlie Rose's show on ISIS last night? It was fascinating and informative, and there was one guy who really stood out for me as an expert. He has a book that I want to buy, but I can't remember his name and I can't seem to find it on the net. Thanks.

ETA: Found it. The ISIS Apocalypse by William McCants.

William Haskins · Nov 20, 2015

david miliband?

Maze Runner · Nov 20, 2015

William Haskins said:
david miliband?

Just found it. William McCants, "The ISIS Apocalypse". There were two others on the panel. One with the NY Times, but McCants knew everything to the point that Charlie was addressing most of his questions to him. I gotta read this. Thanks!

nighttimer · Nov 20, 2015

Cyia said:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...k-gunmen-take-hostages-in-bamako-live-updates

I'm surprised this thread hasn't had more activity today.

Either way, the siege is over. Malian, French, and US military raided the hotel. So far, they're saying 27 dead, including 2 hostage-takers, and nearly 80 freed.

I'm not surprised there hasn't been much activity in this thread. Until the civilized people get tired of being slaughtered by the barbarians these are the sort of mundane atrocities we should get used to and it appears we're starting to.

Kick a dog long enough and that dog will flinch even when you only walk by it. At least until that dog gets tired of being brutalized and the fangs go in.

veinglory · Nov 20, 2015

I think one of the reasons Mali is getting a smaller reaction than Paris is that even as a fairly educated person who has lived in four different countries I must admit I know essentially nothing about Mali. That means an immediate reaction for me and similarly ignorant people is purely to the act and loss of life, without context.

I do have to say that I am getting a little tired of the Paris-sympathy-shaming. I think we need to expand the moral circle, not contract it. If people feel a special bond to Paris before and after the attacks, that needs to be accepted and expanded to equally deserving communities because sympathy and support is the right response. We just need to extend it to places that lack some of the immediate fame/privilege/whatever of a European capital. Cycles of compassion are the only answer to cycles of violence.

CWatts · Nov 20, 2015

veinglory said:
I do have to say that I am getting a little tired of the Paris-sympathy-shaming. I think we need to expand the moral circle, not contract it. If people feel a special bond to Paris before and after the attacks, that needs to be accepted and expanded to equally deserving communities because sympathy and support is the right response. We just need to extend it to places that lack some of the immediate fame/privilege/whatever of a European capital. Cycles of compassion are the only answer to cycles of violence.

Exactly. It's familiarity and sense of connection (and media attention), plus so many godawful things happen in the world we can't pay attention to all of it. Let's put it this way - over 2,000 people were murdered in New York City during 1980, but I'll bet most of us could name only one of them....

Gunmen attack Mali hotel, take 170 hostage

Kylabelle

unaccounted for

Maxinquaye

That cheeky buggerer

Kylabelle

unaccounted for

Maxinquaye

That cheeky buggerer

Kylabelle

unaccounted for

Maxinquaye

That cheeky buggerer

Kylabelle

unaccounted for

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

Vince524

Are you gonna finish that bacon?

William Haskins

poet

Kylabelle

unaccounted for

Maze Runner

William Haskins

poet

Maze Runner

nighttimer

No Gods No Masters

veinglory

volitare nequeo

CWatts

down the rabbit hole of research...