Horror author transitioning to Fantasy - need advice

Galumph_Triumph

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Hi everyone,

I'm a horror/thriller author, but when I was in my early 20's, I created a fantasy story for a video game I wanted to design. I have about 200 pages of backstory on the continent and characters, but now I plan to turn it all into an epic fantasy novel(s).

I have a few questions:

1. Is there some kind of online guide that gives a brief rundown of writing fantasy? I wonder how different it is from Horror and other related genres.

2. What common tropes should NEVER be used again? I once read that Fantasy readers hate reading about "evil for evil' sake", IE, the demons are spilling into this world, our armies are pushing them back, blah blah blah. Is this true?

3. What's a good POV for Fantasy? First person? Third omniscient? I was thinking Third limited, following the main character. My horror novel is first person, so this will be my first time doing something other than that.

4. How do you intertwine backstory with the narrative? My world is ancient, like many other fantasy worlds, and I don't want to do infodumps. What do you suggest? I was thinking, each city/important place the character arrives at, there's just a brief description of their history?
 

Brightdreamer

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Hi everyone,

I'm a horror/thriller author, but when I was in my early 20's, I created a fantasy story for a video game I wanted to design. I have about 200 pages of backstory on the continent and characters, but now I plan to turn it all into an epic fantasy novel(s).

I have a few questions:

1. Is there some kind of online guide that gives a brief rundown of writing fantasy? I wonder how different it is from Horror and other related genres.

Your best bet is to read some recently-published fantasy. As a recent thread (the "Blurring Boundaries" thread I'm too lazy to link to) demonstrates, a clear definition of "fantasy" is never going to be universally clear. The days when "fantasy" meant "Tolkien in disguise" are long, long gone. Today, you can get anything from epic Tolkienesque fantasy to hard fantasy (with magic functioning by almost scientific laws/rules) to contemporary-with-a-twist to alt-histories/futures to books with no actual magic in them, but something just impossible or fantastic enough to appeal to fantasy readers.

2. What common tropes should NEVER be used again? I once read that Fantasy readers hate reading about "evil for evil' sake", IE, the demons are spilling into this world, our armies are pushing them back, blah blah blah. Is this true?

Never say never, as they say. Flat heroes and villains aren't particularly popular in fantasy (or any genre), but there are still Evil things that are unabashedly Evil, and Good forces that are unquestionably Good. It's down to how you sell it, and what kind of story you want to write. A Conan-style sword and sorcery adventure likely won't spend a lot of page time on moral ambiguity, for instance, when it's mainly about the big guy with the sword fighting baddies. That doesn't mean your neo-Conan has to be a flat or boring character, though...

3. What's a good POV for Fantasy? First person? Third omniscient? I was thinking Third limited, following the main character. My horror novel is first person, so this will be my first time doing something other than that.

Again: read. Read lots of fantasy. It depends on what story you want to tell, TBH. If you want to use first person, go ahead and use first. Heck, if you want to use second-person future tense, give it a shot if you think you can pull it off.

4. How do you intertwine backstory with the narrative? My world is ancient, like many other fantasy worlds, and I don't want to do infodumps. What do you suggest? I was thinking, each city/important place the character arrives at, there's just a brief description of their history?

Restrict your information to what the characters encounter, and what they need to know. (And, for the love of Merlin, do not resort to the cliche of the Wise Old Man/Woman who exists to spout pages-long infodumps. Readers see right through that malarkey.) Do you spend 50 pages of your horror novels explaining the Monster or the Evil Thing, or describing the terrain around the highway as your characters flee in terror, or the history of architecture when the floor collapses under your MC exploring the haunted Victorian mansion? Don't do that in your fantasy stories, either.

In summary, read fantasy. Read enough fantasy that you stop thinking of it as a monolithic Thing on the bookshelf, this potential market to be tapped (as, frankly, this post reads like to me), and begin to see it as a dynamic genre with a broad spectrum of subgenres and worlds.

JMHO...
 
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RetsReds

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Hi everyone,

I'm a horror/thriller author, but when I was in my early 20's, I created a fantasy story for a video game I wanted to design. I have about 200 pages of backstory on the continent and characters, but now I plan to turn it all into an epic fantasy novel(s).

I have a few questions:

1. Is there some kind of online guide that gives a brief rundown of writing fantasy? I wonder how different it is from Horror and other related genres.

I don't know if there is, but I'd advise against consulting with something like that. Fantasy is fantasy precisely because it has no actual frames, because it gives you the freedom to write whatever you want. Try reading a bit more modern fantasy, that's all the guiding you need. Just check some of the bigger modern names like Sanderson, Abercrombie, Rothfuss, etc. and after that let you imagination go wild.

2. What common tropes should NEVER be used again? I once read that Fantasy readers hate reading about "evil for evil' sake", IE, the demons are spilling into this world, our armies are pushing them back, blah blah blah. Is this true?

Well, everything is subjective, but as in any other genre, you should avoid cliches, yes. "Evil for evil's sake" is a cliche not just in fantasy but in all genres - you need your villains and evil-doers to be more then one-dimensional characters, to be more "grey" so to speak. The same goes for the protagonists - too perfect white knights are boring. Other cliches - the farmboy, turned hero (Luke Skywalker, etc), the old master mentoring the protagonist, the damsel in distress, things like that. They really aren't just fantasy cliches and can instead be seen in all genres in one form or another.

3. What's a good POV for Fantasy? First person? Third omniscient? I was thinking Third limited, following the main character. My horror novel is first person, so this will be my first time doing something other than that.

I don't think there's one best POV. Most fantasy is told in third person, but so is most of other literature as well. It depends on what the story needs. Imo you can never go wrong with a limited third person, both in fantasy and outside of it, but just think what would serve your story best or simply what you'd like to do and then try to do it as well as possible.

4. How do you intertwine backstory with the narrative? My world is ancient, like many other fantasy worlds, and I don't want to do infodumps. What do you suggest? I was thinking, each city/important place the character arrives at, there's just a brief description of their history?

Yeah, infodumping sucks and it's the bane of most amateur fantasy authors. Basically just avoid it in any shape or form, including most "brief descriptions". The best way is to tell the history, mythos and backstory through the actual story of the novel, through the characters' experiences - through the dialogue (again, avoiding straight infodumps, but just hinting about certain things here and there - nothing longer then a sentence or a paragraph at a time), through some items in the characters surroundings like statues, paintings, vases, etc., through songs sometimes. It's important to keep in mind the reader's intelligence when you write. The reader is not an idiot (usually), he/she doesn't need a detailed explanation about everything and subtle hints are often enough. Of course, you should keep in mind that the reader is also not a mind-reader and he/she might miss some things that feel "obvious" to you, but for the most part hints and clues are enough.

Good luck!
 

Galumph_Triumph

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This is good feedback. I really appreciate it. Thanks to both of you.

I'm still a little worried about backstory. I was originally thinking of offering a brief (2-3 page) history of each major city/territory the character visits at the beginning of the chapter, but now I think that's not a popular approach. I normally limit my horror background quite a lot, but horror sort of relies on the reader wandering around in the dark, so to speak. Knowing as little as possible. In fantasy, as I understand, the world needs to feel ancient, well-trodden, far off. I'm still trying to think of an elegant way to do this without going OH THE PROTAGONIST IS NOW IN CITY A. CITY A IS SUPER OLD! IT WENT THROUGH THESE WARS! etc.


Thanks again <3
 

RetsReds

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but now I think that's not a popular approach.

I'd say to the contrary - it's so popular that it's a cliche and many modern readers have learned to dislike it. No matter how you try to weave it into the story - as part of the narration, dialogue between two people, someone's memory, etc, the reader is always going to think "Ah, yes, the obligatory back story, ok, tell me about it so that we can start with the story itself..." My most boring part of Abercrombie's First Law was precisely the conversations between the fat mage and Jezal, where the mage was teaching him history. It was part of the novel's story, he was teaching Jezal this stuff for a reason, but as a reader you just feel and know that the reason is just an excuse for Abercrombie to fill our heads with backstory and it's annoying.
It's much more rare, original, appreciated from the reader and hard to show the backstory, history, etc of your world without anything longer then a couple of sentences/short paragraph at a time - something small here, something quick there, a quick mention, hint or clue over there. It's hard because it requires much more attention & effort from you but also because you have to find the balance for the reader - enough clues, hints and explanations for the reader to understand everything properly, but at the same time - not too much so that the reader gets annoyed.
 

Brightdreamer

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This is good feedback. I really appreciate it. Thanks to both of you.

I'm still a little worried about backstory. I was originally thinking of offering a brief (2-3 page) history of each major city/territory the character visits at the beginning of the chapter, but now I think that's not a popular approach. I normally limit my horror background quite a lot, but horror sort of relies on the reader wandering around in the dark, so to speak. Knowing as little as possible. In fantasy, as I understand, the world needs to feel ancient, well-trodden, far off. I'm still trying to think of an elegant way to do this without going OH THE PROTAGONIST IS NOW IN CITY A. CITY A IS SUPER OLD! IT WENT THROUGH THESE WARS! etc.


Thanks again <3

2-3 pages is not brief, from a reader's standpoint. It's "Oh, new chapter - I can skip 2-3 pages, then they'll get to the stuff that matters." Or, quite often. "Wait, another 2-3 chapter infodump? Is this going to happen every danged chapter? And does it ever matter? Wow - look at all the other books waiting to be read..." Do not think that a reader needs to be told, constantly and at every chapter start, that the world is Old and Ancient. Unless your character is a historian, most of that Old and Ancient stuff will mean nothing to them. Seriously, do you habitually drive around, say, New York City and reflect how centuries of habitation have changed the landscape beyond recognition, or what technical innovations were required to build this building or that bridge, or the political maneuverings that created Central Park? If you were driving with an out-of-town passenger, would you spend the entire trip yammering about this stuff? Do you want your passenger bailing out in the middle of the next intersection? No - at most, you might point out one or two highlights, though you're more likely to relate personal stories than big, deep history... and even then, you'd likely keep it to a dull roar. You can show Age and History quite effectively without story-stopping infodumps or ramblings... especially if you keep it focused on your characters and your story.

Again, I strongly - strongly! - suggest you read more fantasy... particularly more recent fantasy, and ideally closer to whatever story you have in mind. (If you're not going for epic fantasy, for instance, the idea that a world must be Huge and Ancient and Oozing History Out Every Proverbial Pore is a broad overgeneralization.) Every author has to find their own balance with backstory; read to see how other authors handle this, and what works for you as a reader.

Are you reading yet?

Why not?
 

Latina Bunny

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Best advice: Read recent fantasies. Then write. And write some more.

2-3 pages of historical backstory info dumping in a fiction book is not my idea of fun. I wouldn't read past the first page of it...
 

Osulagh

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I strongly - strongly! - suggest you read more fantasy... particularly more recent fantasy, and ideally closer to whatever story you have in mind.
I strongly suggest you follow Bright's advice.

There is absolutely no replacement for the experience when reading an actual story.
 

Filigree

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I like decently-woven backstory. I have problems either putting too much of it in at once, or or making it too subtle for readers who can't read in context. But even I would stop reading at 2 - 3 pages of narrator sightseeing, especially if it seems chronic.
 

Marian Perera

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I'm still a little worried about backstory. I was originally thinking of offering a brief (2-3 page) history of each major city/territory the character visits at the beginning of the chapter, but now I think that's not a popular approach. I normally limit my horror background quite a lot, but horror sort of relies on the reader wandering around in the dark, so to speak. Knowing as little as possible. In fantasy, as I understand, the world needs to feel ancient, well-trodden, far off.

No, it doesn't have to be like this. Read fantasy - Lawrence Watt-Evans, Rosemary Edghill, China Mieville, George R. R. Martin, Terry Pratchett, Jacqueline Carey, Matthew Woodring Stover, Tanith Lee, Adrian Tchaikovsky, Kara Dalkey, Octavia Butler.

There's a huge variety of fantasy here, taking place in everything from modern New York to Phoenicia to completely fictional cities where the story doesn't stop to explain the history. The reader doesn't need to know all the details right away.

I'm still trying to think of an elegant way to do this without going OH THE PROTAGONIST IS NOW IN CITY A. CITY A IS SUPER OLD! IT WENT THROUGH THESE WARS! etc.

One way to do this is to incorporate signs of history into the story.

Let's say your MC's are human and they're on a blind date, meeting each other for the first time. That sounds like a fun, ordinary thing humans do. So they plan to meet at a public location, and it's in the square that holds the statue of the Great Conqueror. Your hero brings a rose to place at the Conqueror's clawed feet, as a sign of respect. Your heroine bows low, and the shadow of the Conqueror's spiked tail falls over her. Then she and the hero turn to each other to say hello.

Right away it'll be obvious to readers that this city has a history. To me, it's one where humans were defeated by intelligent dinosaurs. But whatever it is, these glimpses are likely to be more interesting than a 2-3 page history lesson/travelogue.
 
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Galumph_Triumph

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I appreciate all the further advice. It actually struck me, someone's comment that I do not walk around considering the history of the places I visit. A peasant in a medieval world would be even less likely to do so. However, they'd probably be fractionally more aware of the legends and myths and things that enrich their culture.

My last question here is, is there any market for more light-hearted fantasy? I imagine my story as more charming, bright, vibrant, and fantastical, as opposed to the ultra-realistic, dark, and brutal fantasy that Martin writes.
 

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My last question here is, is there any market for more light-hearted fantasy? I imagine my story as more charming, bright, vibrant, and fantastical, as opposed to the ultra-realistic, dark, and brutal fantasy that Martin writes.

Something tells me you still haven't visited the Fantasy section of your nearest bookshop or library - there's a whole lot more to modern fantasy than George R. R. Martin. "Grit" is kinda in right now, but there's a fair bit of lighter stuff, and more fantastic/sense-of-wonder stuff.

Again: bookstore. Now.
 

Marian Perera

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My last question here is, is there any market for more light-hearted fantasy? I imagine my story as more charming, bright, vibrant, and fantastical, as opposed to the ultra-realistic, dark, and brutal fantasy that Martin writes.

In my last post, I provided a list of authors. At least two of them write light-hearted fantasy.
 

RetsReds

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My last question here is, is there any market for more light-hearted fantasy? I imagine my story as more charming, bright, vibrant, and fantastical, as opposed to the ultra-realistic, dark, and brutal fantasy that Martin writes.

Yes. In fact, that market is growing. Even if it wasn't tho, there's always a market for good books.
 

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I appreciate all the further advice. It actually struck me, someone's comment that I do not walk around considering the history of the places I visit. A peasant in a medieval world would be even less likely to do so. However, they'd probably be fractionally more aware of the legends and myths and things that enrich their culture.
Probably fractionally less aware, being illiterate, without much access to illustration, (small local churches being unlikely to have pictures of religious figures and events) and reliant on word-of-mouth for new information, and memory for history. They'd know the highlights: the more memorable rulers, the wars that affected them, other towns that travelers passed through, events that were made into catchy songs. They wouldn't have a lot of details, and what they know would be distorted by time, re-telling and whatever makes a story more entertaining. Thus, myths are born.

Is it possible that your having 200 pages of background on this world is holding you back? That because you have it, you feel the need to use it?

You're in California? Consider all the people who come to California and have an exciting time, getting their movie made, seeing Disneyland, smuggling drugs, all without giving a second thought to the history of the state, aside from wondering why so many places are named after Santa?
My last question here is, is there any market for more light-hearted fantasy? I imagine my story as more charming, bright, vibrant, and fantastical, as opposed to the ultra-realistic, dark, and brutal fantasy that Martin writes
.
Yes. Martin and Tolkien are only two points on a very long line.
 

Galumph_Triumph

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People keep telling me to read fantasy; I suppose I should address this.

I am 28 now, and a graduate student. I published my first novel right before I entered grad school, and now that I am nearly done, I am preparing to write my second and third books. The third is the fantasy.

Years ago, I was a huge reader of R A Salvatore, Tolkein, various other Forgotten Realms authors, the folks who wrote the Magic the Gathering novels (whose names are lost to history, I'm sure), and a bigtime fantasy gamer. I think that most real fantasy readers would scoff at this list, but that is my background. I am currently amassing a pile of newer fantasy books, per the recommendations made here and elsewhere. But I won't get to start any of them for another seven months.

I'm just asking some very general questions here to kind of orient myself in the genre, but I will read all of your recs, I assure you. Thanks again