who to kill to start the plot

Stlight · Dec 28, 2004

Does anyone else have trouble deciding who is to be the victim? There has to be some reason for the reader to care about the victim, and some reason for the non-police detective to search for the killer, but once I develop the victim, it's depressing to kill him/her. If I don't like the victim, then it would be depressing to catch the murderer. Sigh.

How do you deal?

Stlight

rtilryarms · Dec 28, 2004

I killed the Author off in the first chapter and never finished the dang thing.

lol, sorry, couldn't resist

rt

Maryn · Dec 28, 2004

Sympathetic Victim?

I'm not so sure I agree that you have to develop much character for the victim. Whether it's a police procedural or a cozy, the need to apprehend the killer remains urgent whether the victim was a sweetheart or a creep. Not so much to make the killer pay for taking the life of a good person but to prevent further killing and because taking any life is intolerable.

My first several victims were all patterned after a particularly unpleasant mommy in our kids' nursery school. Later, I moved on to people who'd been cruel to me in my teens, or insufferably arrogant in the grocery store... It's true, after you kill a few times, it gets easier and easier, until it starts being a lot of fun.

Of course, the impact to the reader of killing a character you and they have come to like is greater, but the traditional mystery doesn't generally incorporate much character, good or bad, for the victim. This doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't do it, though. I'm a big fan of character over plot any day.

Maryn, happy to discuss this further

HConn · Dec 29, 2004

... once I develop the victim, it's depressing to kill him/her. If I don't like the victim, then it would be depressing to catch the murderer.

Killing a victim people like is supposed to make them sad and a little outraged. It's proper and natural.

Sympathy for the killer is completely natural in certain circumstances. It should be encouraged.

Maryn · Dec 29, 2004

Sympathy for the Killer

Oh, I agree strongly with that. Among the reasons I like "Red Dragon" more than "Silence of the Lambs" is that you understand why the killer is doing what he's doing and you feel bad for him, even though he's become a monster.

Maryn

katdad · Dec 30, 2004

I don't think you need to establish any emotional tie to the victim. What you must do however is to establish an emotional link between the deceased and the characters of the book.

I just finished my 2nd mystery novel of the series, and I'm now proofreading it prior to sending it to my agent. She's currently shopping novel #1 to publishers.

In this new book, a young & well-off stockbroker guy was shot & killed before the book begins, and the murder occurs "off camera".

But the live-in girlfriend of the dead guy is suspected of murder (obviously) and my private eye thinks she's innocent. So that's where the story begins.

The dead guy is not even much missed (he wasn't a bad dude but not a hero either), but his death creates ripples that drive the novel's plot. So even if he's not significant, his death is.

In a subsequent novel (#4 in my mystery series) I do plan to kill off a secondary character who's been around in the series from the start, and this death will have great consequences for my protagonist for a long time.

katdad · Dec 30, 2004

Re: Kill off someone you know

Later, I moved on to people who'd been cruel to me

This is one of the more delightful things about being a writer, the ability to kill off people you don't like. Especially if they die in a particularly gruesome way.

I killed off a very annoying and nasty ex-girlfriend in one of my novels, and made sure she's killed in an ignoble and shallow way, as befits her.

And in a later novel, I plan to kill off a secondary charcter who's become annoying to me. Not in real life, but in the mystery series. So this character will just have to be eliminated!

What fun!

Jamesaritchie · Jan 7, 2005

Re: Kill off someone you know

The murder victim, at least the first one, is usually dead before anyone gets to know anything about him, good or bad. Good muder mysteries usually open with a murder.

There are many reasons why a non-detective would pursue a crime, regardless of who the victim might be. He's suspected of the crime and must clear himself. A friend is suspected of the crime and he must clear the friend. He's in a position where the killing may continue, and he or his friends may be the next victim. Or as in Sherlock Holmes, it's his job.

arrowqueen · Jan 7, 2005

Re: Kill off someone you know

Yep. I'm with James. They're lying on a beach with their face peeled off. Could be a really lovely person, but who knows?

maestrowork · Jan 17, 2005

Re: Kill off someone you know

The best way to kill a character is to make it someone you hate in real life -- say, your mother in law.

neddyf · Feb 1, 2005

Re: Kill off someone you know

I kill off a shop assistant at the start of my novel and during the police investigation, details of her background come out and the story develops.

I have not based her on anyone, although, like many others I guess, I have been served by my fair share of rude ones.

Oh yes, I must add that my mother in law is fantastic.

Cheers

Ned

Betty W01 · Feb 1, 2005

Re: Kill off someone you know

And if you're taking suggestions, I've got a few...

:lol

Nateskate · Feb 4, 2005

Re: Kill off someone you know

I've written two murder mysteries (complete) never submitted and obviously unpublished. In fact, I'm not sure if I could find them if I wanted to at this point.

But I made one character so sympathetic, and made him the love interest hero to another character, that I found I couldn't kill him off. So, I made another sympathetic character, and killed him off.

You don't have to make them sympathetic. You can make the survivors sympathetic characters. But it helps to get the reader emotionally invested. And I don't mind bringing them to tears, as long as it isn't in sadness that they wasted time reading my story.

Stlight · Feb 9, 2005

Re: Kill off someone you know

Thanks for the help. My writing winds in and out on the psychological edge so the victim connection to others in the book is probably going to be strong. I do like the victim gone before the end of the first chapter, I'd do it to, but when I tried that turned out to be well into the book, first part leading up to - murder - rest solving. Working on that.

For some reason I can't quite place this discussion has reminded me of Camus's Stranger. Perhaps the mother-in-law suggestion points to Mommy dearest to Camus? Or the plot hinging on the suspect proving his/her innocence? Actually wouldn't want to write anything as depressing as Camus, I'm the one who has to do the re-writes, which is why I'm not heavy on gore. {did I actually spell Camus right???}

Thanks again,
Stlight

three seven · Feb 13, 2005

Maryn said:
I'm not so sure I agree that you have to develop much character for the victim. Whether it's a police procedural or a cozy, the need to apprehend the killer remains urgent whether the victim was a sweetheart or a creep. Not so much to make the killer pay for taking the life of a good person but to prevent further killing and because taking any life is intolerable.

In the real world, yeah, but life is cheap in fiction. People are killed off purely for the purposes of furthering the plot, and everyone cheers when the bad guy gets shot at the end.
If someone broke into your house intending to kill you, your instinct would be to run out the front door, wake the neighbours and call the police. If you were a character in a thriller, you'd fill him with lead without a second thought.

katdad · Feb 13, 2005

three seven said:
If someone broke into your house intending to kill you, your instinct would be to run out the front door, wake the neighbours and call the police.

No, if someone broke into my house intending to kill me, my first instinct would be to grab my 12-gauge pump, or my Ruger .357 Magnum, or my Glock 30, or my Colt 1911 .45, or whichever gun was handy.

Police response is about 10 minutes. I'd be dead if I called the cops first. And the neighbors? Ha. They'd just call the cops anyway.

Afterward, of course, I'd make sure to phone the police to report a shooting. "Sorry for the mess, officer."

three seven · Feb 13, 2005

Yeah, I know you would! Thinking about it, my first instinct would be to grab a plank of wood (not allowed guns in this country.) Anyway, stop splitting hairs, you know full well what I meant!

maestrowork · Feb 13, 2005

It depends on your character! If your character is like Katdad, he would grab a gun and shoot first. If your character is like Maestro, he would run away screaming like a little girl...

Richard · Feb 13, 2005

I would die content, knowing that he would have left footprints in the garden, a cigarette packet in the bin, and that any detective would be able to identify him by the brand of aftershave he wore on his way to kill me. The entire police department would swing into action on my post-mortem behalf, leading to many exciting twists and turns in the seedy world of professional cockfighting for some reason, before the killer died a bloody, yet highly ironic death, such as mistaking his bourbon for aftershave, lighting himself on fire with a hastily thrown cigarette, and burning to death in the middle of Covent Gardens. My death would also serve a secondary usage, as the man's footprints revealed the identity of the mole working for the local constabulary, and thus taught A Valuable Lesson To The Children.

Or so fiction has taught me, and really, why would it lie?

katdad · Feb 14, 2005

three seven said:
Anyway, stop splitting hairs, you know full well what I meant!

No problem -- I was being a bit overboard. I just had to jump in with my pro-gun rant.

I understand that in England, gun crimes have about doubled in the past 5 years. Is that true? (and no, I won't get into a lengthy off-topic discussion).

katdad · Feb 14, 2005

>>I would die content<<

That's a terrific "novel" you just wrote! Hell, type it up and send it in. It will be better, as is, than 90% of the crud we read nowadays.

three seven · Feb 14, 2005

It's more or less true. The usual line is that it's more than doubled since the (notoriously-tough-on-gun-crime) Labour government came into power in 1997.

Not all of it is my fault.

katdad · Feb 14, 2005

three seven said:
Not all of it is my fault.

Damn! I was hoping to shout out "He did it! He did it!"

By the way, here in Texas, about 80% of homes have guns for self defense. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

three seven · Feb 14, 2005

Wasn't there an organisation in Texas that offered its members a reward for shooting burglars? They put notices in their windows explaining the scheme and burglaries in the neighbourhood fell to virtually nothing. Or did I just make that up?

katdad · Feb 14, 2005

three seven said:
Wasn't there an organisation in Texas that offered its members a reward for shooting burglars? They put notices in their windows explaining the scheme and burglaries in the neighbourhood fell to virtually nothing. Or did I just make that up?

I think that's urban legend. I've never heard of such, and I've lived in Texas many years. And it's quite illegal to solicit such acts. Outright solicitation of commission of possible assault is prohibited. That would be like offering a bounty and that of course is quite illegal. It's like setting booby traps. Verboten.

However, in each state where the citizens were given the right to carry concealed handguns, random assault and muggings have plummeted. Duh.

Our system is of course based on English Common Law, except that the principle of Home as Castle is less infringed upon here that it is in Mother Country. And we still generally have the right to possess firearms in our homes.

Each state has variances in the law. For example, in some states, the law requires that you first attempt to flee from your residence, and then if unable, you may use lethal force to defend yourself. However in most states it's not incumbent upon you to flee from attack, providing you're in your home.

The law is quite specific, and as I see it, reasonable. The law never says "It's okay to shoot someone" because that's an explicit statute. Instead, it's implicit -- "It is a defence against prosecution (you being prosecuted by the government) if you fear for your life or the life of companions."

There's no "license to kill" but instead, specific cases in which you may justifiably shoot someone: A break-in into your home, where you fear for your life, in other words.

But if a burglar's surprised and flees, and you chase after him across the neighbor's yards, and shoot him? You'll probably go to prison.

I myself have a concealed carry permit, but that does not confer upon me any police powers nor does it provide me greater justification for shooting someone. It simply allows me to carry a pistol concealed on my person (or in my car) most of the time. I would still have to be attacked and fear for my life before I could claim justification in using that weapon to defend myself.

We can discuss this at length in email or in an off-topic section if you wish. Just let me know.

who to kill to start the plot

Stlight

rtilryarms

Maryn

HConn

Maryn

katdad

katdad

Jamesaritchie

arrowqueen

maestrowork

neddyf

Betty W01

Nateskate

Stlight

three seven

(Graeme Cameron)

katdad

Registered curmudgeon

three seven

(Graeme Cameron)

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

Richard

13th Triskaidekaphobe

katdad

Registered curmudgeon

katdad

Registered curmudgeon

three seven

(Graeme Cameron)

katdad

Registered curmudgeon

three seven

(Graeme Cameron)

katdad

Registered curmudgeon