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Pony.
07-16-2015, 12:13 AM
In my WIP there are some events that happen before the story even begins that have huge bearing on the story. One event is a suicide. In what research i have done so far what I have learned is what you see in media is a crock.Suicide is apparently not as easy as its made out to be in the movies.The rest of the story is pretty much based on this characters suicide,so that much is non negotiable. What I'm looking for is that proverbial clean, quick and painless method that a woman would have the resolve to implement. With absolute lethality.

What I'm finding is that the stereotypical 'wrist slitting'....only lethal 6% of the time, can take an hour+ to die and is actually rather painful(not to mention messy).
Statistically speaking, my research shows that women are very specific. There are methods that women just dont seem to employ and are the most considerate suicides. its the women who leave notes, men hardly ever do. And women seem to be more concerned with how much mess will be left to clean up after them.

The character is a 20 year old woman, the suicidal tendency is brought on by a gang rape a couple years earlier.(there is no rape scene in the story, that and the suicide both happen before the story actually begins, but there is reference to them in the story.) The rest of the story is her attackers keep turning up dead and figuring out who killed them. I'm about 20k words in and I'm working on dialogue about the happenstance and I don't have that detail.

asroc
07-16-2015, 12:27 AM
Most successful suicides I've responded to were either gunshots to the head (not 100% guaranteed, but fairly reliable) or jumping off a tall structure. Men seem to be more likely to use those methods, but women certainly do it, too.

King Neptune
07-16-2015, 02:12 AM
In addition to gunshot the head and jumping, poisonous gases are usually successful, and drowning often works but is often regarded as accidental death. Most gas stoves have electronic ignition now, but filling a room with gas will usually be effective, similarly, carbon monoxide is quite poisonous, and it is easy to produce. Driving into a river will often work, and many one car automobile accidents are actually suicides.

RKarina
07-16-2015, 02:31 AM
OD - the right kind of pills - it's not a 100% guarantee, but it's doable. If she has access to the right pills, totally believable.

Briefly:
Single-drug suicide attempts usually fail. Using a combination of drugs, along with an anti-emetic will be more effective, adding a plastic bag even more so (the plastic bag adds carbon monoxide poisoning to the mix).
Anti-depressants and sleeping pills are a common combination, along with meclozine for the nausea (it's Dramamine... another option would be phenergan, but that's harder to come by).

If you want more info on it than that - let me know. I'm just not keen on writing out a detailed how-to for a drug OD.

Pill form can be a challenge - but, it's doable. It's relatively clean, and if done with sleeping pills as well, relatively painless as the person will be asleep/unconscious at the time of any problems. Potential problems include vomiting, loss of continence, and convulsions. Relatively clean.

If she is the kind of girl who might have access to illegal drugs, an OD on something like heroin would be easy, and again, relatively clean/painless.

LJD
07-16-2015, 03:28 AM
I'm guessing jumping in front of a train doesn't qualify as clean?

Pony.
07-16-2015, 04:48 AM
I'm guessing jumping in front of a train doesn't qualify as clean?
Jumping in front of a train is one of the methods my existing research is showing that women generally just don't do. Im sure it has and does happen but it seems women tend to favor the more quiet,less dramatic routes. As if that feeling of worthlessness carries over into death and they wont merit the kind of attention that would draw.

Some additional background on the character: middle class/middle america, at 19 was working in a candy store at a local mall. Walked home from work late, the one time she cuts through a park she gets attacked. Left beaten and bleeding she hides in a phone booth until police find her after an anonymous tip. The physical wounds heal but the mental/emotional trauma takes its toll and she commits suicide two years later. She may have had pain killers at one point but two years on I would think those would be gone. Im not sure if i could fabricate access to drugs or a gun and have it work with the all american family image I was going for( but whats more american than a skeleton,or two, in the closet) There is a mother and father I suppose could have some pharmaceuticals. Buying drugs for the job is another possibility but i was thinking it should be something done out of opportunity more than planned in advance.(the suicide planned, the 'how,when and where' left to opportunity). I did come across some odd statistic regarding suicide.
such as every month just out of the US 16 million people look up suicide and suicide prevention online, your odds of successfully committing suicide, factoring for outside intervention and general failure, are aprox 150:1, the elderly are the most successful at suicide with 1 in 3 succeeding in 2014. Some pretty odd stuff.

Beachgirl
07-16-2015, 05:48 AM
Last month a woman jumped from the Skyway Bridge that spans Tampa Bay. Numerous people jump from it each year and, while the majority are men, more than a few women have chosen the Skyway as their suicide method over the years.

jclarkdawe
07-16-2015, 05:56 AM
Planning matters.

However, if you want an exceptionally clean suicide, here's the best one I know of. Before doing the event, take an enema. Odds are your splinter is going to let go. An adult diaper is also helpful. Then a plastic bag goes over the head, followed by a noose around the neck. Forward fall so that you're getting strangled. (A real hanging is hard to do.) Security blanket is tying your hands behind your back before falling forward.

Time is about ten minutes before complete death. Some discoloring on the face and neck is possible, but other than that, open casket is possible.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

LJD
07-16-2015, 07:23 AM
Jumping in front of a train is one of the methods my existing research is showing that women generally just don't do. Im sure it has and does happen but it seems women tend to favor the more quiet,less dramatic routes. As if that feeling of worthlessness carries over into death and they wont merit the kind of attention that would draw.

I suggested it because that's what a close female relative did. I know women are less likely to use such methods, but that doesn't mean you can't use it. Depends what factors into her decision. While women may favour "quiet, less dramatic routes" they are also less likely to succeed in killing themselves. If effectiveness matters more than anything and she has no access to a gun, then it would make sense.

Not sure whether she's living by herself or with her family, but one other thing that I haven't seen mentioned is the question of who might find the body. Does she want to avoid the person closest to her finding the body? In which case...doing it in public (train, bridge, etc) might be a preferable option. Also, doing it at home could, in some ways, draw more attention because people might see a ton of cop cars, etc at the house, whereas outside the home, it might not seem so personal and the neighbors wouldn't start talking about it right away.

Ravioli
07-16-2015, 03:40 PM
Minimum of 7 grams Phenobarbital. Painfree and if not found within a couple hours, lethal. Often used to euthanize pets. Bit tricky to procure, but 3/4 of a brain will suffice. Flush with alcohol to increase effect. It's neither brutal (gun), nor horrifying (train), so not a lot of resolve is required.

If you do go for wrist-slitting... down the road, not across.

bombergirl69
07-16-2015, 05:23 PM
Minimum of 7 grams Phenobarbital. Painfree and if not found within a couple hours, lethal. Often used to euthanize pets. Bit tricky to procure, but 3/4 of a brain will suffice. Flush with alcohol to increase effect. It's neither brutal (gun), nor horrifying (train), so not a lot of resolve is required.

If you do go for wrist-slitting... down the road, not across.

yep. Or a nice big dose of fentanyl

RKarina
07-16-2015, 07:43 PM
Check out the site lostallhope - you'll find more information than you can imagine. Somewhat disturbing at times, but helpful.

Pony.
07-16-2015, 07:51 PM
Lostallhope actually is one of the sites I have been perusing. I also have a couple of prevention sites and a board for people looking for someone to pact with. There is some seriously disturbing stuff out there.

Ravioli
07-16-2015, 11:50 PM
yep. Or a nice big dose of fentanyl
Oh man, don't remind me of those 3 boxes of regret. Found three friggen boxes, 90 lollies, in an apartment I was moving into. All 3 shrink-wrapped. I tried one, 30 minute of a light state of sedation, 4 hours of unspeakable headache and nausea. But I guess 3 to 5 such lollipops chewed up quickly, could off an unhabituated person. I would however assume that they are much harder to get.
All you apparently have to do for Phenobarbital, is tell 7 vets your epileptic dog is out of pills, and take your 7 prescriptions to 7 pharmacies. 7 grams should kill a slim to normal weight adult. If rescued, long term damage is unlikely. Some vets use high doses for anesthesia in surgeries as they're more easily stomached. Though I've walked in on one dog owner getting the news that her dog died on the table, so you gotta be careful with that stuff. It's a muscle relaxant. Your heart should never relax too much, too long.

DISCLAIMER: I encourage no one to commit felonies, crimes, fraud or whatever lying to a doctor to get kill pills for falls under; I'm merely using my knowledge to try and help a writer write credible dark stuff.

Dave Williams
07-17-2015, 01:28 AM
Clean, quick, painless... an idling car in a garage isn't super quick, but it's clean and painless.

A relative-in-law bought that ticket out a few years back. Fired up his Buick, stuck his Kenny Rogers tape in the player, and reclined the seat. They found him the next day.

Pony.
07-17-2015, 04:05 AM
Oh man, don't remind me of those 3 boxes of regret. Found three friggen boxes, 90 lollies, in an apartment I was moving into. All 3 shrink-wrapped. I tried one, 30 minute of a light state of sedation, 4 hours of unspeakable headache and nausea. But I guess 3 to 5 such lollipops chewed up quickly, could off an unhabituated person. I would however assume that they are much harder to get.
All you apparently have to do for Phenobarbital, is tell 7 vets your epileptic dog is out of pills, and take your 7 prescriptions to 7 pharmacies. 7 grams should kill a slim to normal weight adult. If rescued, long term damage is unlikely. Some vets use high doses for anesthesia in surgeries as they're more easily stomached. Though I've walked in on one dog owner getting the news that her dog died on the table, so you gotta be careful with that stuff. It's a muscle relaxant. Your heart should never relax too much, too long.

DISCLAIMER: I encourage no one to commit felonies, crimes, fraud or whatever lying to a doctor to get kill pills for falls under; I'm merely using my knowledge to try and help a writer write credible dark stuff.

The problem with that strategy is that a vet wont write a script for an animal they haven't seen, and even then they won't write for an animal they haven't seen in the past year. And phentanyl is not a first course of treatment in seizure cases. With the 'drug seeking' phenomenon the veterinary community has gotten just as cautious as the human side of medicine.Unless you find a crooked one they just don't bend on that.

PeteMC
07-19-2015, 01:15 PM
Clean, quick, painless... an idling car in a garage isn't super quick, but it's clean and painless.

A relative-in-law bought that ticket out a few years back. Fired up his Buick, stuck his Kenny Rogers tape in the player, and reclined the seat. They found him the next day.

I'm not sure if this still works with modern low-emission cars. The only guy I knew who killed himself shut himself in his car with a petrol lawnmower running in the back, the fumes got him.

Ravioli
07-19-2015, 01:35 PM
The problem with that strategy is that a vet wont write a script for an animal they haven't seen, and even then they won't write for an animal they haven't seen in the past year.
You haven't met the right vet. I know of a case where this worked, with vets who've never even met that person. The alleged dog owner couldn't show the dog because "It's in such a bad state it can't go out safely, so this is real urgent". Also, you can borrow any dog, best a breed prone to epilepsy like St. Bernard or Tibetan Mastiff. After all, epilepsy isn't that obvious unless a seizure is happening before your eyes. You'd need to do brain tests and all that, and honestly, why go through the trouble if the owner sounds convincing and desperate for help?
While this was for a less serious medication, I once managed to beg prescription meds out of a pharmacist for my debilitatingly painful chronic bladder infection. I was sincere, I had been shopping and all the while, was hit by horrible stings and jolts and could hardly walk on. I was doubled over at his counter and gasping the words rather than speaking. You can totally fake this though, just do some basic method acting imagining the pain you want to convey until your brain makes your body do all the right things, including pupil dilations and unintentional muscle contractions to get the facial expression right.


And phentanyl is not a first course of treatment in seizure cases. With the 'drug seeking' phenomenon the veterinary community has gotten just as cautious as the human side of medicine.Unless you find a crooked one they just don't bend on that.
I really advise against fentanyl for this reason; it's ridiculously hard to get I assume. It freaks me out to wonder how those 3 shrink-wrapped boxes ended up in the fuse box of my apartment. Like, did they rob an oncology ward? Getting fentanyl is extremely hard to write in a credible manner. Paulo Coelho was very vague on how Veronika's friend got her the sleeping pills, or what sleeping pills they were, because of procuring troubles. Prescription-free sleep-aids are usually as deadly as vitamin supplements - killing you only if consumed in such amounts you can just as well drink the same amount of water and drown your damned self.

Pony.
07-19-2015, 05:58 PM
Was your experience in the US and was it before or after the oxycotin onslaught?
Since then vets here would only tell you to see a urologist and that they don't do people. My wife is a Vet, since she started practice i cant even get her to write for antibiotics when i get bit.
If a vet gets busted it can mean their DEA license and possibly jail time... My own wife doesn't even like me that much.

Im thinking Xanax is going to be the way to go with this. I wanted this to be plausible. Xanax is time released, if ground up too much hits the system too fast and beyond a certain point theres no much that can be done. Being a rape victim its reasonable she would have some for anxiety/ptsd treatment.

Ravioli
07-19-2015, 06:24 PM
Was your experience in the US and was it before or after the oxycotin onslaught?
Since then vets here would only tell you to see a urologist and that they don't do people. My wife is a Vet, since she started practice i cant even get her to write for antibiotics when i get bit.
If a vet gets busted it can mean their DEA license and possibly jail time... My own wife doesn't even like me that much.

Im thinking Xanax is going to be the way to go with this. I wanted this to be plausible. Xanax is time released, if ground up too much hits the system too fast and beyond a certain point theres no much that can be done. Being a rape victim its reasonable she would have some for anxiety/ptsd treatment.
Ah, no, Belgium 2009/10.
Xanax is a good idea in this specific context. Hadn't thought about it. My shrink had prescribed me like 5 packets.

asroc
07-19-2015, 07:24 PM
I really advise against fentanyl for this reason; it's ridiculously hard to get I assume.

In the US it's a schedule II narcotic. Hard to acquire in any semi-legal way. A popular way to get it is to rob ambulances. Fun times.



Im thinking Xanax is going to be the way to go with this. I wanted this to be plausible. Xanax is time released, if ground up too much hits the system too fast and beyond a certain point theres no much that can be done. Being a rape victim its reasonable she would have some for anxiety/ptsd treatment.

It's very difficult to overdose on Xanax. The lethal cocktail is in conjunction with alcohol.

Pony.
07-19-2015, 07:56 PM
Thats the ground up part. Xanax as produced is a timed release formulation but somehow, apparently, if ground up that no longer applies. Supposedly if ground up too much will get into the blood stream faster than the bodies instinct to regurgitate can kick in.(hence why the bottle says do not crush) primary she'd fall asleep,secondary stop breathing and ultimately die. Alcohol would certainly cement that and parents could have in the house for personal or entertaining purposes.

WeaselFire
07-20-2015, 04:28 AM
Women use poison, men use firearms. One reason many wrist-slitting incidents are not fatal is that they are not intended to be. The attempted suicide is a cry for attention, not a true attempt at death.

For women, a glass of wine, a warm tub and bottle of sleeping pills, barbiturates, pain pills, Oxycontin is popular, or other overdose would be a "normal" suicide. is your character into or does she have access to illegal drugs? Heroin is great for this, other opiates pretty decent and codeine fair. A note may or may not be left and depends on what your plot needs.

In another life I worked in a photo lab and processed crime scene photos (yes, they used to be on film, not digital...) and suicides of women were often drownings or car crashes (driving into a local bridge abutment was way too common). But that's possibly because those options were more available where we were. Alcohol was almost always involved, usually to a serious extent. We did have successful wrist slitters (slice deep and parallel to the arm, not across the wrist) and a number of drug overdoses (heroin and speedballs were the rage then) that were classified as suicides by the then coroner, now it's a medical examiner. I also lived next door to both our county's coroner and the coroner for the next county north. FWIW, I was also treated, successfully, for pneumonia by a third county coroner. :)

Jeff

asroc
07-20-2015, 06:15 PM
Thats the ground up part. Xanax as produced is a timed release formulation but somehow, apparently, if ground up that no longer applies. Supposedly if ground up too much will get into the blood stream faster than the bodies instinct to regurgitate can kick in.(hence why the bottle says do not crush) primary she'd fall asleep,secondary stop breathing and ultimately die.

There are both regular release and extended release versions of Xanax, but again, crushed or not, in an otherwise healthy individual alprazolam alone is highly unlikely to cause death. The extreme difficulty of fatally overdosing on benzodiazepines is a huge reason they're so popular and have essentially replaced barbiturates, after all. Have her down a bottle of vodka on the side, or this'll be very hard to believe.

(Suicide by prescription or recreational drug overdose is neither clean nor reliable anyway.)

BJ Bourg
07-20-2015, 08:16 PM
Pony,

As long as it's realistically lethal, you can use any method of suicide you want and it'll be fine. Women jump from buildings, shoot themselves (even in the head, although not as common as the chest area), overdose, cut themselves (wrists, neck, etc.), drive onto train tracks (or, as one member already mentioned, threw herself in front of a train), burn themselves, hang themselves, crash their vehicles, drown themselves, etc., etc. There are no absolutes when it comes to suicides. Some methods are more common than others among women, but that doesn't mean other methods are unrealistic, which is great for you. You have many options from which to choose and it'll be easier to find a method that meshes with your storyline.

Oh, and as asroc mentioned, an overdose is neither a clean nor reliable means of suicide.

Best of luck to you!

Pony.
07-20-2015, 08:39 PM
Ironically my WIP is set straight up 49 from you around the Shreveport area. I was given a suggestion as to what my real problem with this part could be,in that I really dont want this to just be seen as an instruction manual. If i could get away with her killing herself with koolaid and pez I'd be going that route.

WeaselFire
07-20-2015, 09:00 PM
If i could get away with her killing herself with koolaid and pez I'd be going that route.

Several small children have died from choking on Pez candies and you can drown in KoolAid. :)

Cyanide-laced KoolAid was the potion of choice at the Jonestown massacre and gave rise to the term "Drinking the KoolAid."

But, does the actual process matter in your plot? Or just the fact that she killed herself as a result of not being able to deal with the assault?

Jeff

Pony.
07-20-2015, 09:19 PM
I guess the 'how' isn't really important, so much as the simple happenstance is. But having it plausible to make it fit in I think should be important. Where would a 20something year old girl find cyanide? the Xanax I could see her being prescribed for anxiety and having some on hand. Also for as much as I dont want this to be an instruction manual I do want it to be right.

Siri Kirpal
07-20-2015, 09:58 PM
Sat Nam! (Literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

The method my husband's grandmother used was to take a sleeping pill and before it took effect, tie a plastic bag around her head. She was not a lady who could stand muss or fuss, and that's the route she took.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

Taejang
07-21-2015, 05:51 PM
You may be better off establishing her personality a little more. What she thinks is best is what she'll go for, regardless of trends or average methods for other women. If she has any medical training, for example, she may choose something very different. If she has experience with venomous animals, or is an avid hiker, or reads mystery novels, or watches CSI-type shows... all kinds of things could drastically alter her own perceptions of suicide methods, leading to the character telling you what she would pick. Or at least narrowing down the options.

As this woman seems to be an integral part of the novel, even if she dies before it starts, it won't hurt to flesh her out a bit more anyway. :tongue

Shara
07-22-2015, 06:15 PM
I know two people who committed suicide, and they both did it by hanging themselves. It seems to be a fairly effective method, and doesn't need much in the way of special equipment.

It appears to be the method of choice for people who are determined to be successful in their attempts to kill themselves.

BJ Bourg
07-25-2015, 07:27 AM
Ironically my WIP is set straight up 49 from you around the Shreveport area. I was given a suggestion as to what my real problem with this part could be,in that I really dont want this to just be seen as an instruction manual. If i could get away with her killing herself with koolaid and pez I'd be going that route.

My upcoming novel, HOLLOW CRIB (Five Star - Gale - Cengage, 2016), is set in the fictitious Skybald National Forest, which was inspired by the Kisatchie National Forest. The specific area is around the Kisatchie Bayou Campground, which is about two hours south of Shreveport. It's a nice place to camp.