Isn't that racist?

PoC is a mostly American term, I think. It's used as short-hand on this board because the majority of AW members are American. The PoC board itself tends to focus on the American experience of racism. Which is why some things can be a bit of a puzzle.

Yeah, strictly speaking there is no white, no black, and all are people of color. I mean, if you're "white", put your hand on a sheet of white paper and tell me again that you're white. Same for a "black" person, take a selfie with a lump of coal. We're all shades and hues of brown in the end.

No. There are issues more prevalent for POC and for example, for the PoC section of the Qeer community that don't exist or exist in the same manner for their White counterparts. When you mix racism and homophobia it is different than having each of them be separate issues. And when you are told that as a Black person no matter your financial status that you can't make it because you're Black, that is different than someone who is white being told they won't amount to shit because they're poor.

There's also a history of people trying to incorperate issues domminant in another demographic into so called White issues, so words like POC exist to make sure actually minority people by western standards are having their issues in relation to society adressed. It isn't that we need to get rid of the phrase, it's useful. What we need it to get rid of the mentality that White people getting social privillege isn't an issue, and POC should instead be happy to be treated like honorary White people instead of being respected for who they are.

It's very much an American term. As someone who grew up in a bubble of a different sort - I went to an international school outside London - where we had such a cultural, racial and language mix of students that there was no 'normal.' It's a term I still struggle with and have an almost viceral reaction to people classifying themselves and others by race. When I went back to the US to do my undergrad, I found a lot of the race-related rhetoric really outdated and a bit extremist. It took me a while to understand that issues of racism were actually still a 'thing' in 21st century America, because the atmosphere I came from was so diverse.

We're also shaped by our circumstances. The circumstances generally encountered by a POC are substantially different from those generally found by a white person. Glossing over that would be facile and self-serving (if you're not a POC). POC usually don't have the luxury of "not seeing colour", because they're constantly reminded of their colour as a factor used to discriminate against them.

If you're a POC and that's not your experience, good for you. I'm not a POC, so maybe I'm entirely out of line. But most POC I've talked to really resent the whole "I don't see race"-stick from white people, and I can absolutely see why.

Race, whatever way any given person defines or assigns it, exists. Therefore we need to have words for it. Just like age, gender, subcultures, or any other demographic variable.

sohalt said:

We're also shaped by our circumstances. The circumstances generally encountered by a POC are substantially different from those generally found by a white person. Glossing over that would be facile and self-serving (if you're not a POC). POC usually don't have the luxury of "not seeing colour", because they're constantly reminded of their colour as a factor used to discriminate against them.

If you're a POC and that's not your experience, good for you. I'm not a POC, so maybe I'm entirely out of line. But most POC I've talked to really resent the whole "I don't see race"-stick from white people, and I can absolutely see why.

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I agree with you. I was just noting that my own background, was actually one of those circumstances where race wasn't an issue and was not the circumstances generally encountered by POC outside the bubble of cultural diversity found in London-based international schools/communities.

Also, it's not my experience at all that race is less of an issue in Europe. We may not talk about it as much, but racism is just as ubiquituous. It just manifests in slightly different ways.

Of course, the world is larger than the USA and Europe, so maybe there is indeed a place where race is less of an issue and OP truly comes from that magical place, (or has otherwise managed to entirely transcend their socialization). I just wanted to point out that "not talking about race as much" in no way, shape or form _automatically_ translates to "less actual racism".

oceansoul said:

I agree with you. I was just noting that my own background, was actually one of those circumstances where race wasn't an issue and was not the circumstances generally encountered by POC outside the bubble of cultural diversity found in London-based international schools/communities.

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Didn't see that before posting the comment above and now thinking that it comes across as overly harsh. I don't want to discount your experience. But as you said yourself, it's a very, very rarified bubble you're referring to and just not applicable to most people.

I do think that the wider culture we're immersed in is profoundly racist, and inevitably leaves its mark even on the most well-intentioned. I also believe that most white people are genuinely not particularly conscious of that. Sadly, that doesn't make it any less exhausting for the POC who have to deal with the more or less subtle forms in which such subconscious biases find their expression after all.

UnluckyClover77 said:

Isn't calling someone a "person of color" basically categorizes human beings into "whites" and "non-whites"?

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The categorising is already there. Sure, you're right, in an ideal world we wouldn't categorise each other based on skin colour any more than we do based on hair or eye colour. But the reality of the world is that there are people out there who do just that. We call them bigots or racists. The use of the term 'PoC' isn't itself categorising people, but responding to the racists' categorising and acknowledging that, because of that, a great many people do suffer.

The OP is from Egypt. I don't know much about Egypt, but it does have very different demographics and history to North America and Europe, so I'm assuming that any racial prejudices and problems it has are also different. Not better or worse, but different.

If the OP is an ethnic Egyptian, then probably they're not seen as a "person of color" in their own country, even though they might be in France or the US. Which goes to show how fuzzy the category can be.

mirandashell said:

PoC is a mostly American term, I think. It's used as short-hand on this board because the majority of AW members are American. The PoC board itself tends to focus on the American experience of racism. Which is why some things can be a bit of a puzzle.

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The majority of AW members are American and White Americans as well. People of Color is simply a term to differentiate from one group of Americans whom typically are aware and conscious of their race and another whom are often unaware and unconscious of their race.

You can probably figure out who's in which group.

Okay, that definitely makes me think I was sounding too harsh. The world is indeed larger than Europe and the USA and I'm well reminded to consider that a bit more.

PoC is an American term for anyone who isn't White. It's not a perfect definition, but it's better than previously used terms, such as "minority," or trying to classify every non-white American as fitting into a specific category, or much, much worse.

I don't think most Americans walk down the street thinking about the race of the people they see, either. I think most people are too busy worrying about their own stuff to casually note the color of other people's skin. However, there is no doubt that the experience of non-White Americans is different in many ways from the life of the average White American. People often say "I don't see color, I just see people," but it's disingenuous. Unconscious bias is real, and it's pervasive. That doesn't even take into account the conscious bias of people who are secretly or even openly racist.

Not too long ago, I was at the Aurora movie theater where a mass shooting took place three years ago. The place is crawling with armed police. I was with a friend, meeting my husband who was already in the theater. After we bought our tickets, one of the armed officers followed us to our screen, even waiting outside the bathrooms when we stopped before getting our seats. I was a little freaked out, but my friend, a Black man, shrugged it off. It happens all the time, especially if he's hanging out with a White woman. He's used to it. I still don't understand how a person gets used to that kind of thing.

That's why the conversation has to continue. His experience is so different than mine, and I didn't even realize how different until that day.

Even these days the Internet that Americans experience is very American. As others have said, AW is quite American, though perhaps less so than the part of the Internet I'm used to seeing. I imagine that can be quite confusing on sites where there is a large non-American or non-Western European population, because those members who are not from the US or Canada, or Western Europe probably don't talk about or even experience racism in the same way that Americans do.

oceansoul said:

I agree with you. I was just noting that my own background, was actually one of those circumstances where race wasn't an issue and was not the circumstances generally encountered by POC outside the bubble of cultural diversity found in London-based international schools/communities.

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I'll put it this way: a white person talking about how race doesn't matter tends to come across like a man describing pregnancy.

Also, racial issues aren't only about racism, and not all racism is bigotry.

kuwisdelu said:

I'll put it this way: a white person talking about how race doesn't matter tends to come across like a man describing pregnancy.

Also, racial issues aren't only about racism, and not all racism is bigotry.

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I have kept in touch with POC classmates over the years. Their experience once they left the international school bubble was one of shock. One friend, who was Sri Lankan, went to university in Texas. She said the culture shock was unbelievable, both from people self-indentifying as 'brown' and assuming they should associate with other 'brown' people by virtue of a shared heritage -- she couldn't even begin to understand what they meant, or why people born in the US or with ancestors from another country than hers would think they shared a heritage link by skin colour. And by how white students treated her.

It wasn't just my personal experience as a white person, it's my understanding that was a very collective experience, and that many POC classmates I went to the international school with were extremely dismayed by the outside world when they left high school.

oceansoul said:

I have kept in touch with POC classmates over the years. Their experience once they left the international school bubble was one of shock. One friend, who was Sri Lankan, went to university in Texas. She said the culture shock was unbelievable, both from people self-indentifying as 'brown' and assuming they should associate with other 'brown' people by virtue of a shared heritage -- she couldn't even begin to understand what they meant, or why people born in the US or with ancestors from another country than hers would think they shared a heritage link by skin colour. And by how white students treated her.

It wasn't just my personal experience as a white person, it's my understanding that was a very collective experience, and that many POC classmates I went to the international school with were extremely dismayed by the outside world when they left high school.

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Where your post is really rubbing me the wrong way is how "dismayed" you and your classmates are by the rest of the world.

It sounds as if you think it's a bad thing to acknowledge race, or to identify by one's ethnicity and heritage.

It sounds as if you're expressing disapproval that I identify as Zuni, as Native American, or that others might identify as Black or Latino.

I have no idea what's dismaying about that, nor would I want to live somewhere where people refuse to acknowledge my racial and ethnic identity.

americans love their identity politics.

William Haskins said:

americans love their identity politics.

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As pithy and dismissive as ever, I see.

not sure how it's dismissive, but okay.

The thing is, Kuwi, is that you are talking from an American perspective. It's important to you because of your history and what happened, and is still happening, to your culture. And no-one is trying to dismiss that.

But it's a little unfair of you to dismiss the experiences of other people because they don't tally with yours. Every country has racism of one kind or another. But they aren't all the same experiences.

And it's the main reason why the only experience of racism discussed on this board is the American experience because everyone else's gets dismissed out of hand.

mirandashell said:

The thing is, Kuwi, is that you are talking from an American perspective. It's important to you because of your history and what happened, and is still happening, to your culture. And no-one is trying to dismiss that.

But it's a little unfair of you to dismiss the experiences of other people because they don't tally with yours. Every country has racism of one kind or another. But they aren't all the same experiences.

And it's the main reason why the only experience of racism discussed on this board is the American experience because everyone else's gets dismissed out of hand.

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I don't think Kuwi is being dismissive or simply taking things from an American perspective. Someone who is Black and Canadian is still Black, maybe they're the descendant of slaves or Nigerian immagrants. But like their American, French, British etc. counterparts, they're likely to encounter prejudice due to their race. The fact they do doesn't change, just the level and way it is expressed may be different depending on where they're from. I won't even tackle ethnic and racial prejudice from within a given demographic. The point is that it happens regardless of which western society you're from.

Also, I'm with Kuwi on this one. I tend to find it disconcerting when people say that someone else identifying strongly with their race or ethnic group dismays them. I idenify as mulatto or Black for example, and I'm happy with that. My cousins idenify as Khmer whether full or half-blood. And I don't see how no matter how much freedom people have, they havve the right to be dismayed by something like that.

Why do people come into the POC subforum if they're not interested in talking to POC but about POC? Specifically, about POC to other white people? Hilarious.

I'm seeing a lot of useless hand wringing here. "I'm white, not a person of color, hell, I'm not even from the USA but here's my relevant opinion about American racism..." Look. Take it somewhere else. Please. There's a Politics subforum. There's even an Expat/International subforum. Use it. Love it. Explore it.

The way this thread is going, I expect a lot of POC here to become unnecessarily peeved. This subforum is about POC. Naturally, people who identify as POC are going to occupy this space. Respect our space. If you're not interested in constructive dialogue with POC, take it somewhere else. Please.

Over and out.