Ireland backs gay marriage in 'landslide' victory

Wow. That's huge.

William Haskins said:

interesting juxtaposition with the hair-splitting over "real" democracy in the other thread, n'cest pas?

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Great news! Congrats to Ireland!

I saw the comment elsewhere that struck a true note with me, and it was that while this is great news on the one hand, human rights should not be a matter beholden to popular vote.

While I agree with this in principle, I think a demonstration of this kind is extremely helpful to our collective psyche, and probably even absolutely necessary in achieving the big changes we need to improve human morality and the greater good.

So on balance, WOO HOO!

Eh, I don't know which is better, an inferred right or an enumerated right.

Vince, that's awesome!

Yay on the vote I don't like seeing referendums on things like this, but in this case it worked out, so I'm happy.

William Haskins said:

it has significant value as a grand gesture by a vast majority of heterosexual voters confirming that it's none of their goddamn business and certainly does them no harm for gay people to have the right to marry.

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Not poo-poo-ing anything. I'm pondering if this is a better result than having the right infered as would be the case when you have a judge extrapolating from other rights.

I'd rather see human rights be decided in the affirmative by referendum rather than denied by the status quo.

Sure, it'd be lovely if we had always recognized gay marriage as a human rights issue and never prevented it, but that's not the world we live in. We are calling for change in order to right what the majority of us now understand as a wrong, and the ways we're going about that - in the courts and with our votes - seem like the right way to do so, even though we may wish we'd done so sooner or that it had never been an issue to begin with.

When the Freedom to Marry amendment passed in Minnesota, the Suburbs played their classic Love is the Law during a celebration in downtown St. Paul, Minnesota's capital. I offer this to the people of Ireland today, gay, straight, and everywhere on the spectrum, in celebration of their victory.

Go Ireland!

No matter what side you stand on, no matter where the issue goes from here , and it will go on, Ireland did it first. One of the heaviest catholic countries in the world, Ireland kinda blows that 'affront to god' argument out of the water. Kudos.

Good for Ireland. What two consenting adults do of any orientation is none of anyone else's business. Best of luck to all concerned.

Xelebes said:

Eh, I don't know which is better, an inferred right or an enumerated right.

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William Haskins said:

it has significant value as a grand gesture by a vast majority of heterosexual voters confirming that it's none of their goddamn business and certainly does them no harm for gay people to have the right to marry.

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I'd say that as long you're willing to live with the decision, voting is the better way.

Yes, it's all very nice to have a judge or a court say that you're legally entitled to marry, but that gives an opening for the bigots to claim that the judges are imposing their disgusting views on the rest of society. Having the popular vote, on the other hand, means that the bigots can't say that they are speaking for the 'majority'. Although they will doubtless try to: 'The 'other side' turned out in droves, while we were off praying' or some such.

Now is the time for the courts to step in and make sure that the letter of the law is airtight.

Such fantastic news~! I can only hope for many more such victories in the coming years.

frimble3 said:

Having the popular vote, on the other hand, means that the bigots can't say that they are speaking for the 'majority'. Although they will doubtless try to: 'The 'other side' turned out in droves, while we were off praying' or some such.

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Ahaha...among certain individuals that I know the prevailing lament will be (as it always is) that the majority REALLY wants marriage restriction, but that the minority in favor of marriage equality illegally fixed the vote. x3 It's kind of similar to what they say when science presents some fact or other that doesn't align with their beliefs—those evil scientists obviously faked the results, so no need to heed anything they say!

frimble3 said:

I'd say that as long you're willing to live with the decision, voting is the better way.

Yes, it's all very nice to have a judge or a court say that you're legally entitled to marry, but that gives an opening for the bigots to claim that the judges are imposing their disgusting views on the rest of society. Having the popular vote, on the other hand, means that the bigots can't say that they are speaking for the 'majority'. Although they will doubtless try to: 'The 'other side' turned out in droves, while we were off praying' or some such.

Now is the time for the courts to step in and make sure that the letter of the law is airtight.

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The problem is, people are mercurial. This is nice for Ireland and the world, but it's not, in that I don't think civil rights should be subject to popular vote.

What the people give by referendum, the people can rescind by referendum. People can also vote in or out representatives who can affect legislative or judicial change, but it's much more slow-moving and can be harder.

Even if you felt certain it'd go the way you wanted, would you put freedom of (or from) religion up for a vote? How about speech? Trial of your peers?

cornflake said:

The problem is, people are mercurial. This is nice for Ireland and the world, but it's not, in that I don't think civil rights should be subject to popular vote.

What the people give by referendum, the people can rescind by referendum. People can also vote in or out representatives who can affect legislative or judicial change, but it's much more slow-moving and can be harder.

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You basically said what I was going to. It's unsettling to have one's civil rights subject to a popular vote, especially when one is a member of a minority group or a group that has traditionally had fewer rights than other people in society. Referendums are great, but only when you have a strong constitution that protects people from the tyranny of the majority.

Having said this, though, I'm cheering for Ireland today. I'll admit I was assuming they'd vote against, since I thought the Catholic Church has such a stranglehold there that most Irish were very socially conservative (I remember a story about a woman there who died recently because she couldn't get an abortion). I'm assuming that this might be because Ireland is a demographically younger country than the US?

Even so, I'm also more than a bit ashamed at my own country. We're supposed to have separation of Church and State, yet oh so many of us seem to get past the idea that marriage must be, first and foremost, something that's defined by traditional Christianity.

Barabbas!

Australia's recalcitrance on marriage quality has gone from mainstream (for the West) to disappointing, to shameful, to just embarrassing, in a few short years. We'll move on eventually, everyone will wonder what the fuss was about, and future generations will wonder why we were so terrible when we're a single footnote in history class. But until then, we're a bit of a sad joke.

Roxxsmom said:

...Having said this, though, I'm cheering for Ireland today. I'll admit I was assuming they'd vote against, since I thought the Catholic Church has such a stranglehold there that most Irish were very socially conservative (I remember a story about a woman there who died recently because she couldn't get an abortion). I'm assuming that this might be because Ireland is a demographically younger country than the US?
...

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I'd guess so. The Irish folks I know (all young, except their parents) are mostly atheist. I think the archaic nature of the Catholic church might even create more atheists than more fluid religions do. That's my theory, anyway. My friends literally rebelled against the Catholic dogma of their upbringing and want nothing to do with religion. I know of others who are more fluid/non-observant Catholics, though, too, so that's also going on with the young. Dunno about the older folks.