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Lauram6123
04-25-2015, 06:18 AM
I need an unflattering term for an Englishmen, delivered by a Scot, that would have existed in 1796.

Thanks in advance.

ClareGreen
04-25-2015, 10:11 AM
'Sassenach' was pinned down for that purpose in 1814, previously having been used for Lowlanders by Highlanders. It possibly had a dual meaning for some time either side of that.

Usher
04-25-2015, 02:27 PM
"The English" it's certainly how Burns referred to them.

shakeysix
04-25-2015, 02:37 PM
I second "Sassenach." Taylor Caldwell seemed to think it did the job. --s6

Lauram6123
04-25-2015, 05:43 PM
Thank you all. I'd never heard of 'Sassenach' before, so I'm glad I asked.

Alessandra Kelley
04-25-2015, 05:59 PM
I gather it means "Saxon."

Deb Kinnard
04-25-2015, 06:13 PM
It does mean "Saxon," but said with a curled lip and spitting after uttering it...

flapperphilosopher
04-25-2015, 07:21 PM
"The English" it's certainly how Burns referred to them.

That's probably because he didn't speak Gaelic. Sassenach (Sassanach in Gaelic) is the basic Gaelic word for the English. So it's not inherently a slur in the same way "The English" isn't... but at the time time, with the context and the way it's usually said, yeah, it is.

Usher
04-25-2015, 07:34 PM
That's probably because he didn't speak Gaelic. Sassenach (Sassanach in Gaelic) is the basic Gaelic word for the English. So it's not inherently a slur in the same way "The English" isn't... but at the time time, with the context and the way it's usually said, yeah, it is.

Most Scots did not speak Gaelic but Sassenach was used outside of the Gaelic region. I used Burns because of the date rather than his dialect.

Calling someone English with correct emphasis can be used to be insulting. "The English" can be used as an insult. Especially when calling someone English rarely had a positive connotation.

lbender
04-25-2015, 08:19 PM
Just a warning - In the Outlander series (Diana Gabaldon), the heroine is affectionately referred to by her Scottish husband as 'Sassenach'. Fans of the books (or the series on TV) might not regard it as an insult.

Alessandra Kelley
04-25-2015, 09:38 PM
Just a warning - In the Outlander series (Diana Gabaldon), the heroine is affectionately referred to by her Scottish husband as 'Sassenach'. Fans of the books (or the series on TV) might not regard it as an insult.

I don't know for certain, but I had the impression from books I read as a kid that it was viewed as a synonym for barbarian, foreign devil, uncivilized pagan savage.

People have used weirder terms as personal private terms of endearment.

Malay
04-25-2015, 10:01 PM
The simple and elegant, bastard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-H_hZZfktI

Usher
04-25-2015, 10:37 PM
well I don't know how long FEB has been around. The F and the B (see Malay's post above) stand for the obvious and the E for English. It's quite possible the expression is quite an old one ;)

Malay
04-25-2015, 11:24 PM
It does mean "Saxon," but said with a curled lip and spitting after uttering it...

I see, that explains the "ach" after sasson ;)

Matchu
04-26-2015, 10:23 PM
Break into Catholic song, maybe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5fijjUbTTw

williemeikle
04-26-2015, 10:31 PM
Break into Catholic song, maybe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5fijjUbTTw

That would completely depend on where you were from. My ancestors, as Lowland Scots, weren't Catholic and fought against the Jacobites.

Usher
04-26-2015, 10:50 PM
Plus by 1796 we had well and truly had the reformation both sides of Hadrian's Wall. Even in the Highlands. Singing Catholic song is not going to make you well liked ;)

Lauram6123
04-26-2015, 11:14 PM
Yeah, the Scots in my WIP are Presbyterians.

Usher
04-26-2015, 11:16 PM
English bastard is probably as good as any insult. Whatever you use put English in front of it.

Matchu
04-26-2015, 11:33 PM
Well, with respect, it doesn't matter if you are a Presbyterian - the author wants to insult an 18c Englishman.

Orate Burns, in draft form...though, he's maybe not born yet, is he? Or offer the southern lord Scottish rock which is horrible and soft, not like the Blackpool rock, from memory. I'm thinking hard about this; insult Queen Anne: 'As wide as she is tall..?'

williemeikle
04-26-2015, 11:39 PM
Well, with respect, it doesn't matter if you are a Presbyterian - the author wants to insult an 18c Englishman.

Orate Burns, in draft form...though, he's maybe not born yet, is he? Or offer the southern lord Scottish rock which is horrible and soft, not like the Blackpool rock, from memory. I'm thinking hard about this; insult Queen Anne: 'As wide as she is tall..?'

Queen Anne was a Scottish Queen too, and a Stuart, so I don't think that's a way to go. Also quite a few years in the past by 1796.

Burns died in 1796, the year the OP is asking about.

And Scottish rock isn't horrible at all. :tongue

Matchu
04-26-2015, 11:42 PM
Okay, I lost.

I'll think of something juicy...

...

I looked everywhere on-line: read dull Spectator articles, researched 1795 in history on Wikipedia, concluded Dundonian for beginners was about the most promising resource available:

http://www.dundonianforbeginners.co.uk/fairdeegowk.htm

Walking the pathway I sensed a Scotchman in the bushes, and it was at this moment I reached for my English cutlass. The Scot sprung from the hedgerow, waved a finger, a menacing, filthy and pointed digit, a long finger, a bone encased in flesh. I looked to his eyes, he cleared his throat, and I was insulted thus:

'Awa yi go, yi big fairdeegowk iy,' he said.

I turned, and ran for the border.

Usher
04-27-2015, 12:39 AM
Well, with respect, it doesn't matter if you are a Presbyterian - the author wants to insult an 18c Englishman.

'

Not when your minister has legal power over you. Mid- late 1700s was when the Clandestine Churches were being built like Tynet Chapel. You didn't want people thinking you were one of those.

Big question is where in Scotland is your Scot from? As dialects change every few miles. Even in the mid 1900s you could tell what village a person was from by the way they spoke. It was only when they started sending children to secondary school in the main towns it became a bit less obvious. I can ask people on Tuesday for you and get some fairly decent and reliable answers but they will all ask where as it's a vital question ;).

Robert Dawson
04-27-2015, 12:55 AM
Have to say I'd trust that Dundonian source more if it wasn't full of completely bogus dialect spellings.

So in Dundee they pronounce "year" as "yeer". So do we all. But I bet they don't spell it that way. So what in the name of the wee man is the point of writing it like that?

williemeikle
04-27-2015, 01:30 AM
Have to say I'd trust that Dundonian source more if it wasn't full of completely bogus dialect spellings.

So in Dundee they pronounce "year" as "yeer". So do we all. But I bet they don't spell it that way. So what in the name of the wee man is the point of writing it like that?

To be fair, Dundonian can be incomprehensible at the best of times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLxLmFhROqY

Usher
04-27-2015, 01:35 AM
And from further North:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP9BtScBQaI

williemeikle
04-27-2015, 01:44 AM
And from further North:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP9BtScBQaI

Love it. My sister lives in Keith - I'll send it on to her.

Lauram6123
04-27-2015, 09:57 PM
If it matters, my guys are from Inverness.

Lauram6123
04-27-2015, 09:58 PM
And from further North:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP9BtScBQaI



Ha!

Usher
04-27-2015, 10:16 PM
Wish he'd do more. There's "Oatcakes and Cheese" and "Ah'm e chiel (sae dinna fash)" The latter I can't follow lol I'm in an odd area which is between the Gaelic to the North and West; the Doric to the East and South, and the Old Norse based dialects along the coast. I understand but could be wrong that it was/is closer to Lowland Scots.

blacbird
04-28-2015, 02:13 AM
When I lived in the U.K., I had numerous Scottish friends and worked in Glasgow quite a while. There, they often referred derogatorily to the English, and specifically the snooty southeastern Englanders, as "the Nigels".

caw

williemeikle
04-28-2015, 02:18 AM
When I lived in the U.K., I had numerous Scottish friends and worked in Glasgow quite a while. There, they often referred derogatorily to the English, and specifically the snooty southeastern Englanders, as "the Nigels".

caw

...or bawbags.

Chumplet
04-28-2015, 02:59 AM
I like "The Nigels."

Back to the Outlander series, Diana Gabaldon seemed to do extensive research. The beginning of the book is set after the end of WWII, and also in 1745 or so. The word Sassanach was used in both eras, and although it was a term of endearment (in private) for the heroine, it was also used in an insulting way among the Highlanders when referring to the English. In the book, they explain that loosely translated, it means "outlander" or somebody who doesn't belong. They also called the English redcoats Lobsterbacks.

That's the extent of my knowledge, anyway, for what it's worth.