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William Haskins
04-05-2006, 08:00 PM
SAN DIEGO -- In the wake of last week's immigration-reform protests, one school district is taking drastic measures, banning all symbols of patriotism, both U.S. and Mexican.

Beginning Monday, the Oceanside Unified School District is banning all flags and patriotic clothing. According to school officials, some students are using the garments and flags to taunt classmates.

Some critics of the move are calling it a violation of free speech protections guaranteed by the Constitution.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/8439483/detail.html

WerenCole
04-05-2006, 08:06 PM
So what is next? No religion, no patriotism. . . how about banning sports affiliations?

Their in San Diego right? I say they ban Dodger hats from school.

Maybe they should ban trademarks. . . therefore there would be no dissention among the kids who are pro nike, and those who are pro reebok. Coke v. Pepsi wars? A plague on our nation. . . we must standardize! RC Cola for All.


Eh.

jst5150
04-05-2006, 08:08 PM
Eddie Izzard: "Watch out California ... you can't smoke in bars and soon it will be no drinking and no talking."

That sums up the current fervor.

Jcomp
04-05-2006, 08:12 PM
y jole. I understand wanting to quell dangerous situations, but suppressing conflict through such ridiculous measures is moronic. Doesn't do the kids any good, doesn't reflect well on the school, just a bad move all around.

clintl
04-05-2006, 08:19 PM
If I'm not mistaken, Oceanside is a military town (it's right next to Camp Pendleton, the big Marine base). This ought to go over well there.

Shadow_Ferret
04-05-2006, 08:24 PM
Unemancipated minors don't have any Constitutional rights.

William Haskins
04-05-2006, 08:29 PM
". . . In the absence of a specific showing of constitutionally valid reasons to regulate their speech, students are entitled to freedom of expression of their views."


ó Justice Fortas, speaking for the majority, Tinker vs. Des Moines






http://www.landmarkcases.org/tinker/home.html

Shadow_Ferret
04-05-2006, 08:33 PM
Oh, what does he know?

DaveKuzminski
04-05-2006, 08:41 PM
Hmmm, seems to me that the school district is part of the government. If so, then it's clearly running afoul of the First Amendment.

Spiritwriter
04-05-2006, 09:15 PM
In California, IMHO the schools were overwhelmed and unprepared to handle the situation. We have two completly different mindsets at work here, and unfortunately, not all leaders are adequate to the task at hand.

William Haskins
04-05-2006, 09:32 PM
In California, IMHO the schools were overwhelmed and unprepared to handle the situation.this may well be true, but it seems to me that the answer is not to err on the side of censorship.

Shadow_Ferret
04-05-2006, 09:57 PM
Uniforms. That's the answer.

My-Immortal
04-05-2006, 09:57 PM
Why are people protesting the crackdown on illegal aliens wearing the Mexican flag (or symbols) at all? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to wear the American flag (symbols/colors etc) to show that they REALLY want to stay and that they want to become legal residents of the United States? Can someone please explain that?

If I snuck into a foreign country illegally and they were trying to force me back to a country I was willing to break the law to avoid, I don't see how wrapping myself in the flag of my former country is the best way to convince the foreign country to keep me....and forgive me of my illegal status....

But then, maybe I'm missing something....???

September skies
04-05-2006, 10:05 PM
exactly, Immortal! That's what I keep saying, if you love Mexico so much, go back! If you really do love America, respect it.

I bet if a group of us went to Mexico and started waving American flags, demanding fair treatment there, free medical care and free education for our children (IN ENGLISH!!) -- they would throw our sorry A$$es so fast into jail or back across this way - faster than we can say Chalupa or Chihuahua!

As for the ban on flag and patriotic attire - that's ok for now - 99% of them are wearing Mexican slogans and waving Mexican flags

Something scared me last Friday when I asked a couple of girls to respect the American flag that they were dragging around in the street.
Read here: A Frightening Event (http://midnightwritings.blogspot.com/)

eta: "girls" above keeps coming out as "s" only - even after two attempts at fixing it. Hope it changes now.

Jcomp
04-05-2006, 10:11 PM
Why are people protesting the crackdown on illegal aliens wearing the Mexican flag (or symbols) at all? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to wear the American flag (symbols/colors etc) to show that they REALLY want to stay and that they want to become legal residents of the United States? Can someone please explain that?

If I snuck into a foreign country illegally and they were trying to force me back to a country I was willing to break the law to avoid, I don't see how wrapping myself in the flag of my former country is the best way to convince the foreign country to keep me....and forgive me of my illegal status....

But then, maybe I'm missing something....???

word life...

My-Immortal
04-05-2006, 10:15 PM
word life...

Can you explain this? If you're making a point, I'm missing what it is. Thanks.

CaroGirl
04-05-2006, 10:27 PM
Keep in mind that Iím not American, and I know how much you lot love your flag and all. But I send my kids to school to learn, in the hope that they will be safe and free from harassment (naÔve possibly, but that is the ideal). If students insist on harassing each other despite warnings, by all means remove the offending object, piece of clothing, whatever, that is the catalyst for their bad behaviour. School is a privilege, not a right (think suspension or expulsion). Most schools already have a dress code, pathetic as it might be (no bare midriffs, no t-shirts covered in profanity, and so on).

Can you tell that I would support school uniforms? BTW, I donít think theyíre being patriotic, either group, I think theyíre being antagonistic.

Jcomp
04-05-2006, 10:33 PM
Can you explain this? If you're making a point, I'm missing what it is. Thanks.

my bad. "Word life" basically means "I agree wholeheartedly." Must've forgot which MB I was on. :)

My-Immortal
04-05-2006, 10:35 PM
Keep in mind that Iím not American, and I know how much you lot love your flag and all.


Can you tell that I would support school uniforms? BTW, I donít think theyíre being patriotic, either group, I think theyíre being antagonistic.

And you don't love your flag? Is it not meaningful to you? Just curious - not trying to be snide.

I think you're probably right about it not being about patriotism but rather as a way to be antagonistic - I was just curious as to the reasons why a Mexican flag would used to make the statement that illegal aliens should be allowed to stay in the United States and to become legal residents.

Take care all -

My-Immortal
04-05-2006, 10:36 PM
my bad. "Word life" basically means "I agree wholeheartedly." Must've forgot which MB I was on. :)

Thanks. :) I've got a headache today and I was really trying to figure out your reply. LOL

take care all -

Jaycinth
04-05-2006, 10:38 PM
UGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH


If my daughter were in this school I'd send her to school wearing a burka made from a communist flag...and if they complained about that I'd come to school dressed like Uncle Sam and I'd stand in the principals office singing the Star Spangled Banner, and if they complained about that.........
( I will not rant today...I WILL NOT RANT!!!!!)

Sheryl Nantus
04-05-2006, 10:39 PM
Keep in mind that Iím not American, and I know how much you lot love your flag and all.

hold on, here...

I'm Canadian, married to a happy American and living in Pennsylvania. I asked my hubby to put up both flags in front of the house and he did so - making sure that mine was to the right of the American flag (when you walk down the driveway) in agreement with the way the flag is supposed to be displayed. He's a vet, so he knew of such things.

Sure, I could have tossed a hissy fit and told him that I wanted it on the other side, but I respect the American flag as much as I do my own - and to insinuate that Canadians don't love our flag as much as an American is really doing us Canucks a disservice. And if you don't love your country's flag as much as an American, then you do have a problem.

but RESPECT the country you're in. I may toot the Canadian anthem on Canada Day but I stand proud when the American anthem is played because it's a country that allowed me to enter, get married and start a career. I'm not going to dump where I eat, to put it in plainer words.

sayeth the proud Canuck with the Pernament Resident Card.

William Haskins
04-05-2006, 10:43 PM
Why are people protesting the crackdown on illegal aliens wearing the Mexican flag (or symbols) at all? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to wear the American flag (symbols/colors etc) to show that they REALLY want to stay and that they want to become legal residents of the United States? Can someone please explain that?

But then, maybe I'm missing something....???

of course, it would make sense if they were actually embracing america for what it is. but they're not.

http://ccir.net/AUDIO/TakeoverOfAmericaCD/Menu.html

CaroGirl
04-05-2006, 10:47 PM
And you don't love your flag? Is it not meaningful to you? Just curious - not trying to be snide.
My flag? Itís just a leaf, really, but I do have a sort of visceral attachment to it, considering Iíve lived under it my whole life. It does stir my innards when I see it flying at international events like the Olympics. I am certainly proud to be a Canadian, if thatís what youíre asking.

William Haskins
04-05-2006, 10:50 PM
so what if a bunch of americans who didn't have the legal right to be in your country came there, took to the streets demanding rights, used the maple leaf as a gag in their mouths, displayed it upside down, and raised an american flag at a public institution above your flag?

all the while claiming that the southern region of your country belonged to them?

Sheryl Nantus
04-05-2006, 10:52 PM
they'd get a government grant, free health care and housing and a full hour on the National, courtesy of the CBC.

other than that... nothing.

:)

DaveKuzminski
04-05-2006, 10:53 PM
so what if a bunch of americans who didn't have the legal right to be in your country came there, took to the streets demanding rights, used the maple leaf as a gag in their mouths, displayed it upside down, and raised an american flag at a public institution above your flag?

all the while claiming that the southern region of your country belonged to them?
You mean we don't already?

CaroGirl
04-05-2006, 10:53 PM
so what if a bunch of americans who didn't have the legal right to be in your country came there, took to the streets demanding rights, used the maple leaf as a gag in their mouths, displayed it upside down, and raised an american flag at a public institution above your flag?

all the while claiming that the southern region of your country belonged to them?
I admit to not actually reading that article (I'm at work). <sheepish grin>

But if it were to happen among students at my local high school, I'd ban it all, from all the students, and let them get some work done.

CaroGirl
04-05-2006, 10:54 PM
You mean we don't already?
That was you?

William Haskins
04-05-2006, 10:54 PM
so you consider cowardice and capitulation and throwing the baby out with the bathwater integral parts of the educational process?

CaroGirl
04-05-2006, 10:59 PM
so you consider cowardice and capitulation and throwing the baby out with the bathwater integral parts of the educational process?
Nope, I believe exactly what I said in post #17 vis a vis each child's right to go to school without being harassed, etc.

Are you just up in arms cuz I said you love your flag a bunch? I'm sure I meant that as a compliment.

tiny
04-05-2006, 11:02 PM
SAN DIEGO --

Some critics of the move are calling it a violation of free speech protections guaranteed by the Constitution.



Free speech has never extended to causing "disruptions"(I use that loosely). You can't yell fire in a movie theater. Violation of free speech? And let's face it, I watched the news casts, these kids had no idea what they were taking or walking about. They used it as a reason to leave school, nothing else.

The school is trying to fix the problems in place where the non-residents have more rights than the residents. No matter what, everyone is not going to be happy.

I say stick the kids in uniforms..... but of course, then the school(tax payers) would have to pay for them like they do with school supplies so that everyone has the same stuff.

William Haskins
04-05-2006, 11:02 PM
i'm not up in arms.

CaroGirl
04-05-2006, 11:04 PM
Free speech has never extended to causing "disruptions"(I use that loosely). You can't yell fire in a movie theater. Violation of free speech? And let's face it, I watched the news casts, these kids had no idea what they were taking or walking about. They used it as a reason to leave school, nothing else.

The school is trying to fix the problems in place where the non-residents have more rights than the residents. No matter what, everyone is not going to be happy.

I say stick the kids in uniforms..... but of course, then the school(tax payers) would have to pay for them like they do with school supplies so that everyone has the same stuff.
I agree. You said it very well. I wish I were a writer...

Sheryl Nantus
04-05-2006, 11:06 PM
kids will use ANY excuse to walk out of class - betcha over 75% of them don't really have any thoughts on the issue but wanted a day off. And the television cameras don't help, since then they get to look Cool in front of their friends and all.

Shadow_Ferret
04-05-2006, 11:14 PM
School is a privilege, not a right (think suspension or expulsion).

Actually, I thought here in America school WAS a right, something mandated by law that people must attend school until a certain age. That is why we have a public school system, so ALL Americans are afforded the same right to education.

My-Immortal
04-05-2006, 11:17 PM
Just some thoughts to ponder:

1) What other country would allow these same activities to happen? (just in case I want to sneak into a foreign country illegally and start demanding things from that government - it would be good to know upfront...)

2) Are Mexicans (and citizens from other nations) still in their native countries waiting to come into the United States legally pi$$ed at those that sneak in illegally - jumping ahead in the line so to speak, (and perhaps make it even harder for them to enter legally)?

3) I've heard the argument that the United States is a 'melting pot' of immigrants...but is it truly a 'melting pot' anymore? And even if it is - wouldn't 'melting' mean the English language would be flavored with some Spanish words - and not 'press 1 for English, press 2 for Spanish'...?

4) Are illegal aliens (from any country) the only criminals that are allowed to benefit from their crimes - even after they are caught? I mean, if a person enters the country illegally and has a child - that child benefits by becoming a US citizen. Even illegal alien children are allowed entry into our schools....another 'benefit'. I understand that many of these people want to better their lives...but they are still breaking the law. I'm sure in the minds of some bank robbers, they're taking that money to better their lives too - but if they're caught, they (or their families) don't get to keep the money. They don't get to benefit from their crimes....

Sorry to go on a bit of a tangent here...perhaps this should be a seperate thread.

Take care all -

William Haskins
04-05-2006, 11:17 PM
personally, i don't give a f*ck what their motive is... if a child in america wants to wear something representative of the american flag, they should be able to freely do so.

NeuroFizz
04-05-2006, 11:20 PM
One person's rights extend only as far as the next person's begin.

And I side with William on this issue. If there's a stink in the refrigerator, we shouldn't close down the house.

tiny
04-05-2006, 11:21 PM
personally, i don't give a f*ck what their motive is... if a child in america wants to wear something representative of the american flag, they should be able to freely do so.

I agree, William, but if that shirt is going to get my son beat up or harrassed, I won't let him wear it. I think the school over stepped their bounds (don't think it has anything to do with free speech though), but when the parents don't care what their kids do in school, they have no where to turn.

Jcomp
04-06-2006, 12:26 AM
I think part of the problems we face in the country, and the world, is our extreme desire to completely avoid conflict, as opposed to meeting with it and addressing it. Banning "patriotic" attire is about as effective and sensible as sticking your head in the dirt when a predator approaches, and it's "easy" like getting an AIDS test because you don't want to know the answer. The problem doesn't go away, it'll still f**k you up. Kids grow up sheltered from disagreement, hearing ugliness and having to figure out the proper way to respond in face of that ugliness. Then when they finally meet that confrontation they don't know how to keep their cool, it's an abomination to them, they react like a Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel seeing E.T., i.e. "Ma, git me my gun."

tiny
04-06-2006, 12:33 AM
I understand what you're saying Jcomp. But I have a 16 year old son who has been suspended twice for fighting. The school does not care who starts it. They want the kids to run away and tell. He has my permission to fight back.

That said, there is nothing wrong with avoiding conflict. Battles should be picked well. I can go out to the bars alone, get drunk, and put myself into a position where I am in danger. It's my right. But, it's not a smart thing to do.

I need to think about his safety first. The school can't protect him, so I will. He avoids nothing that is pushed in his face, but why ask for more?

Battles should be worth it, and, I personally, think clothing is not.

Jcomp
04-06-2006, 12:41 AM
Valid. Safety first, for sure. I don't go around picking fights with dudes for stupid stuff either, but I think starting early, teaching the young folk that conflicts will happen and that there are proper ways to go head to head with someone you vehemently disagree with is largely overlooked in our society. Kids grow up thinking like their parents, too many of whom teach them "I want to smack that guy for disagreeing with me." I suppose what I'm saying has little to do with what's actually printed in the article, so I don't even know why I'm continuing with it, but it's just my take.

kikazaru
04-06-2006, 12:51 AM
That said, there is nothing wrong with avoiding conflict. Battles should be picked well. I can go out to the bars alone, get drunk, and put myself into a position where I am in danger. It's my right. But, it's not a smart thing to do.

I need to think about his safety first. The school can't protect him, so I will. He avoids nothing that is pushed in his face, but why ask for more?

Battles should be worth it, and, I personally, think clothing is not.

I agree. Gang colours have also been banned from various schools, in order to avert violence.

There really is nothing like an insult to one s flag that brings out dogmatic ferocity in it s defenders, and even though the immigrant kids are now in the US, this doesn t mean that they don t feel love and national pride for their own heritage. I agree with the school - it is a no win situation and they have to act in the best interest and safety of all students.

robeiae
04-06-2006, 12:58 AM
Actually, I thought here in America school WAS a right, something mandated by law that people must attend school until a certain age.That description is of neither a right nor a privilege, but rather a requirement.

Rob :)

William Haskins
04-06-2006, 01:06 AM
even though the immigrant kids are now in the US, this doesn t mean that they don t feel love and national pride for their own heritage.

this is far less akin to irish flags in st. patrick's day parades or italian flags on columbus day than it is a situation where many of these protests are being fueled by organizations who contend that the southwest US (and, in some cases, the whole continent) belongs to the mexicans.

Shadow_Ferret
04-06-2006, 01:08 AM
That description is of neither a right nor a privilege, but rather a requirement.

Rob :)
:tongue

But it's not a priviledge, that was my point. If it was a priviledge then only the priviledged would go and I wouldn't be taxed up the wazoo to send the kids down the street to school. :)

CaroGirl
04-06-2006, 01:17 AM
:tongue

But it's not a priviledge, that was my point. If it was a priviledge then only the priviledged would go and I wouldn't be taxed up the wazoo to send the kids down the street to school. :)
Yes, public schools are available to all students in the catchment area. However, if a student turns up at school repeatedly with a knife in his pocket, he has abused the privilege of attending public school and will be suspended, and then expelled. Education is a requirement up to age 16 (I think) so it's up to his parents to find an alternative means to educate him, whether it be another school (public or private) that's willing to take him, or homeschooling. Abuse the privilege of public school, especially if it compromises the safety of the other students, and you're out.

kikazaru
04-06-2006, 01:20 AM
this is far less akin to irish flags in st. patrick's day parades or italian flags on columbus day than it is a situation where many of these protests are being fueled by organizations who contend that the southwest US (and, in some cases, the whole continent) belongs to the mexicans.

Ah I see. If these groups hope to have a rational a discussion or have people in the least sympathetic to their cause, then appears that they are going about it in the wrong way. However, nothing is to be gained by having violence in the schools either - especially if students die in these clashes. The school board is stuck between a rock and hard place, but their first mandate is to make every attempt to ensure the safety of all students, and to that end, have taken a unpopular stand.

CaroGirl
04-06-2006, 01:23 AM
this is far less akin to irish flags in st. patrick's day parades or italian flags on columbus day than it is a situation where many of these protests are being fueled by organizations who contend that the southwest US (and, in some cases, the whole continent) belongs to the mexicans.
Ah, this is a situation about which I know nothing, or less than nothing. Can't really comment on that aspect of it.

Simon Woodhouse
04-06-2006, 01:25 AM
Patriotism confuses me. How can people become so attached to a piece of cloth with some coloured patterns on it?

tiny
04-06-2006, 01:26 AM
Because of what it represents. It's not the flag but the country behind it.

blacbird
04-06-2006, 01:28 AM
all the while claiming that the southern region of your country belonged to them?

Me, I want the Yukon.

But, without justifying any of this "official" action, it isn't always quite as simple a matter as straightforward "First Amendment". It gets into an issue of the purpose for which the display is intended; if it's intended as intimidation, and indeed produces that effect, a public safety issue arises.

Local schools where I live have banned the wearing of hats or other headgear, for exactly that reason. And numerous places around the country have banned the wearing of gear bearing professional sports team logos, as those have become gang symbology in some areas.

Even the Baltimore Ravens.

caw.

William Haskins
04-06-2006, 01:29 AM
Ah, this is a situation about which I know nothing, or less than nothing. Can't really comment on that aspect of it.

it's not like i didn't try to enlighten you.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=556162&postcount=23

Jcomp
04-06-2006, 01:31 AM
Because of what it represents. It's not the flag but the country behind it.

True. I do think some people get a tad overzealous about the symbol, however, both those who "oppose" it and those who "defend" it.

My-Immortal
04-06-2006, 01:37 AM
Gang colours have also been banned from various schools, in order to avert violence.

Wearing an American patriotic shirt in the United States is now akin to wearing gang colors?

Interesting.

So, it's okay that a group of law-breakers (that shouldn't be in the country at all) can now suddenly make it a 'crime' for American students to wear their own patriotic colors in their own country....

Maybe the students should take a page out of the illegal alien playbook and sneak into the school anyway wearing the patriotic clothes and then protest the ban....

...no wait, THEY would probably get tossed out of the school....

Makes you wonder what is becoming of this country, doesn't it?

Simon Woodhouse
04-06-2006, 01:38 AM
Because of what it represents. It's not the flag but the country behind it.

I also find this idea bewildering. A country is just a bit of land.

tiny
04-06-2006, 01:39 AM
True. I do think some people get a tad overzealous about the symbol, however, both those who "oppose" it and those who "defend" it.


Yes, there are always nuts. But I believe in respecting certain things. Flags are one of them, not only American, but other country's flags as well.

I teach karate to kids. One of my pet peeves is that they toss their belt on the ground. I worked for years to get my black belt. It's a symbol of what I've gone through. Even when I'm tying it on, it doesn't touch the ground. I'm just as proud today of earning it as I was the day my instructor tied it around my waist.

Flags represent the same thing, in my opinion. They are the essense of everything that built the country they fly over. The deserves a certain amount of respect.

tiny
04-06-2006, 01:40 AM
By the way, I just want to add, that the flag is never to be worn as clothing.

Shadow_Ferret
04-06-2006, 01:41 AM
I also find this idea bewildering. A country is just a bit of land.

I can see why you'd say that, you're from New Zealand.

:ROFL:

OK, I"m sorry. I was just kidding.

My-Immortal
04-06-2006, 01:41 AM
I also find this idea bewildering. A country is just a bit of land.

Do you own any land yourself? You do...?

No you don't, it's mine. I decided I was going to come onto your land illegally, and then protest when you try to kick me out. You have a nice house, and nice things that I want - things I don't have in my home, so I'm just going to move on in.....what? You don't like that idea?...Why not? Too bad, it's 'just a bit of land'.

:)

My-Immortal
04-06-2006, 01:43 AM
By the way, I just want to add, that the flag is never to be worn as clothing.

But you can have a shirt that has a picture of a flag on it....
...or you could have a shirt that has a similar pattern....

CaroGirl
04-06-2006, 01:44 AM
it's not like i didn't try to enlighten you.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=556162&postcount=23
True. I see now that you did indeed. I was at work so I had to keep the screen really tiny and click just outside it if anyone came up behind me. Perhaps I should avoid debates under those circumstances.

Jcomp
04-06-2006, 01:44 AM
Wearing an American patriotic shirt in the United States is now akin to wearing gang colors?

Interesting.

So, it's okay that a group of law-breakers (that shouldn't be in the country at all) can now suddenly make it a 'crime' for American students to wear their own patriotic colors in their own country....

Maybe the students should take a page out of the illegal alien playbook and sneak into the school anyway wearing the patriotic clothes and then protest the ban....

...no wait, THEY would probably get tossed out of the school....

Makes you wonder what is becoming of this country, doesn't it?

Well, it's not being labelled a crime, just a violation of school policy. There's a difference there. Further, they can wear it as soon as they leave school grounds, just not on school property. That's a dress code issue, I don't agree with it, but I also don't agree with overstating what's occuring here. Misrepresenting what's taking place offers little or nothing.

I do agree that the flags, American or Mexican, and patriotic language aren't quite akin to gang colors. Gang colors, in certain areas where gang activity is prevalent, have specific messages. Blue means "I can't wait to kill one of you crab a$$ bloods and crip walk on your grave," red meaning something equally threatening. I don't think either flag blatantly says anything near that.

kikazaru
04-06-2006, 01:48 AM
Wearing an American patriotic shirt in the United States is now akin to wearing gang colors?

Interesting.

So, it's okay that a group of law-breakers (that shouldn't be in the country at all) can now suddenly make it a 'crime' for American students to wear their own patriotic colors in their own country....

Maybe the students should take a page out of the illegal alien playbook and sneak into the school anyway wearing the patriotic clothes and then protest the ban....

...no wait, THEY would probably get tossed out of the school....

Makes you wonder what is becoming of this country, doesn't it?

er no.

I was attempting to correlate the situation of schools banning articles of clothing that can incite violence.

Although I suppose it could be argued that colours and clothing (ie school uniforms, biker jackets, skate boarder pants, or esp a military uniform) are like flags in that they are often used to unite a group of people.

My-Immortal
04-06-2006, 01:51 AM
Well, it's not being labelled a crime, just a violation of school policy. There's a difference there. Misrepresenting what's taking place offers little or nothing.

If you commit a crime and are caught, you are punished (or at least you should).
If you violate school policy and are caught, you are punished.

Not as different as you may think. I wasn't misrepresenting what is taking place - simply putting it in similar terms to show just how bizarre all this is becoming.

And how by some this is considered 'acceptable'.

Take care all -

My-Immortal
04-06-2006, 01:54 AM
er no.

I was attempting to correlate the situation of schools banning articles of clothing that can incite violence.

Although I suppose it could be argued that colours and clothing (ie school uniforms, biker jackets, skate boarder pants, or esp a military uniform) are like flags in that they are often used to unite a group of people.

I was attempting to show just how bizarre all this is becoming by casting the situation in a different (yet alarmingly similar) light.

William Haskins
04-06-2006, 02:01 AM
just a taste of how the mexican flag and the protests have little to nothing to do with coming to america to work or trying to assimilate:

http://www.mexica-movement.org/images/usflagupside.jpg

http://www.mexica-movement.org/images/this-is-stolenland.jpg
http://www.mexica-movement.org/images/if-you-think-im-illegal.jpg
http://www.mexica-movement.org/images/this-is-our-continent.jpg

My-Immortal
04-06-2006, 02:07 AM
Nice pics William - I'll have to check the 'true history' for Illinois. I don't recall this area ever 'belonging' to Mexico....I thought we took it from the American Indians. ;)

Simon Woodhouse
04-06-2006, 02:54 AM
I can see why you'd say that, you're from New Zealand.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteROFL.gif

OK, I"m sorry. I was just kidding.

I live in New Zealand, but I'm from planet Earth - http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/Emotewelcome.gif .

Unique
04-06-2006, 04:01 AM
". . . In the absence of a specific showing of constitutionally valid reasons to regulate their speech, students are entitled to freedom of expression of their views."




ó Justice Fortas, speaking for the majority, Tinker vs. Des Moines






http://www.landmarkcases.org/tinker/home.html






So tell me, is it still legal for students to say, 'F*** you!' ?

Unique
04-06-2006, 04:03 AM
Keep in mind that Iím not American, and I know how much you lot love your flag and all. But I send my kids to school to learn, in the hope that they will be safe and free from harassment (naÔve possibly, but that is the ideal). If students insist on harassing each other despite warnings, by all means remove the offending object, piece of clothing, whatever, that is the catalyst for their bad behaviour. School is a privilege, not a right (think suspension or expulsion). Most schools already have a dress code, pathetic as it might be (no bare midriffs, no t-shirts covered in profanity, and so on).

Can you tell that I would support school uniforms? BTW, I donít think theyíre being patriotic, either group, I think theyíre being antagonistic.

Sorry, ma'am but I disagree. It's time to remove the offending student.
Or in old time speak: keep your eyeballs home if you don't like what you see.

SpookyWriter
04-06-2006, 04:10 AM
Sorry, ma'am but I disagree. It's time to remove the offending student.
Or in old time speak: keep your eyeballs home if you don't like what you see.
Dissidents? Expelled for rolling their eyes at society? Outcasts from the social norm? OMG! A (supposed) writer would actually advocate such action as to banish students who rebel? I guess we all should just start quoting scripture and toeing the line?

I think, without big brothers help, so my individualism is what makes me unique. If I don't like something then I speak my mind. I wouldn't want to have my children become cardboard caricatures.

Unique
04-06-2006, 04:16 AM
I think you misunderstand me.

What I mean is:

If you don't like the American flag on my T-shirt. Don't Look.

SpookyWriter
04-06-2006, 04:37 AM
I think you misunderstand me.

What I mean is:

If you don't like the American flag on my T-shirt. Don't Look.
Oh, then we are in agreement?

http://www.nexternal.com/fidough/images/Flag.gif

Perks
04-06-2006, 04:50 AM
I'm a bit torn on this issue. The number of high school students who actually appreciate the statement of support, has to be about a percentage of a sliver of the school's population. The rest enjoy the distraction and aggression. And I have a hard time endorsing another sophmoric outlet for 'us' versus 'them' as respectful of the United States, or Mexico as the case may be. School is not the venue for demonstrating. Town meetings, rallies, whatever - give up your own time to the cause, not when you are supposed to be doing something else and then I'll be impressed by your convictions.

At the same time, passion and the revolutionary spirit are greatly the domain of the young. This is when we start finding out who we are. If school is not the place, then maybe the office isn't either, because dammit you've got work to do, and definitely don't take this stuff to church (that's God's time) and honey, don't spoil dinner with that kind of talk. Before you know it, you've penciled in ten minutes on Tuesday afternoon to allow thoughts of the big picture to crowd out your overbooked life of cushy diversion - the comfort of which big-thinking and activism bought for you way back when. And the price was someone else's youthful energy.

I'm a lot of help, aren't I?

robeiae
04-06-2006, 04:55 AM
I'm a lot of help, aren't I?
Yes. I just realized that the ceiling in my office needs to be painted...:D

Perks
04-06-2006, 04:59 AM
And I suppose you'll be wanting an American flag painted up there, so that visitors will see the star-spangled glow off your shiny bald head?

Shadow_Ferret
04-06-2006, 03:50 PM
I live in New Zealand, but I'm from planet Earth - http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/Emotewelcome.gif .

So then I take it you were being esoterically obtuse on purpose.

oswann
04-06-2006, 04:31 PM
So then I take it you were being esoterically obtuse on purpose.



No. The guy has a point.



Os.

Shadow_Ferret
04-06-2006, 05:36 PM
That a "country is just a piece of land?"

I think he's deliberately missing the point.

Perks
04-06-2006, 06:57 PM
With global communications and relatively easy travel, the world is a much smaller place. I don't find it remarkable that nationalism may fade as a raison d'etre for many people. I know what Simon means.

William Haskins
04-06-2006, 07:02 PM
i think the opposite is true. with increased immigration into developed nations, and the inevitable burden it will cause to social services, i think there will a rising tide of nationalism.

even in simon's new zealand, which has a liberal immigration policy and a high standard of living, there is growing opposition to the influx of immigrants.

robeiae
04-06-2006, 07:06 PM
With global communications and relatively easy travel, the world is a much smaller place. I don't find it remarkable that nationalism may fade as a raison d'etre for many people.Note that these were the same opinions held by many in the the early 20th century...just before WWI and WWII.

Just sayin'

Rob :)

Perks
04-06-2006, 07:08 PM
That makes sense. But I still think that in the relative calm before the storm, strong sentimental attachments to homeland for natives (having been born in the country they live in - I'm not going all PC and historical here) have dulled, as their attentions have focused outward with the ease of getting elsewhere - literally and virtually.

I certainly can see that changing as the ramifications of the scenario you outlined manifest.

Shadow_Ferret
04-06-2006, 07:10 PM
OK. I see no one is speaking English any more. I'm done.

Perks
04-06-2006, 07:10 PM
Right, Rob. I'm not saying it's wise, unwise or anything. Shadow Ferret seemed to think Simon was missing a trick, but I don't think he was. I think a lot of people echo that sentiment (or lack thereof) at least for the time being. That's all up for nearly instantaneous change once the stuff hits the fan.

Perks
04-06-2006, 07:11 PM
OK. I see no one is speaking English any more. I'm done.What'd we do?

Shadow_Ferret
04-06-2006, 07:14 PM
What'd we do?

Well first you said something in French, then you said


I certainly can see that changing as the ramifications of the scenario you outlined manifest.

which I have no idea what language that is. But it sure ain't pedestrian. :)

Jcomp
04-06-2006, 07:14 PM
Right, Rob. I'm not saying it's wise, unwise or anything. Shadow Ferret seemed to think Simon was missing a trick, but I don't think he was. I think a lot of people echo that sentiment (or lack thereof) at least for the time being. That's all up for nearly instantaneous change once the stuff hits the fan.

Yup, nothing unites people under a banner quite like a common enemy.

Perks
04-06-2006, 07:17 PM
Well first you said something in French, then you said



which I have no idea what language that is. But it sure ain't pedestrian. :)Shoulda known it would be my fault. I'll go. You stay. You got here first and apparently, I'm talking nonsense.

Simon Woodhouse
04-06-2006, 11:25 PM
When you categorise people, whether it's black or white, American or Mexican, gay or straight, you divide them, and it's from division that conflict arises.

By referring to myself as an Earthling, I'm becoming part of the largest demographic there is, one that we all belong to.

DamaNegra
04-06-2006, 11:37 PM
Those kids should get back to work. Manifestations during school time? Sounds to me like they're doing it just to skip school.

And well, I don't find it strange or bad anything that you can't wear a flag to school. In Mexico, it is illegal to wear the flag in any of your clothes. That's were respect for the symbols are lost, when you wear them as thongs. I think it's stupid that people wear their national symbols on clothing, where's the respect? And no, it's not patriotism. Patriotism is doing things for your country, not wearing a flag on your shirt, IMHO.

And yes, I also find it hilarious that people are using Mexican flags in manifestations saying "we should stay!" lol.

Shadow_Ferret
04-06-2006, 11:56 PM
By referring to myself as an Earthling, I'm becoming part of the largest demographic there is, one that we all belong to.





Speak for yourself, Earther.