So, this whole student/teacher business...

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StoryofWoe

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I apologize for the length of this post, but after reading this thread. I've had to seriously rethink the beginning of my story and would love some input.

I'm in the thick of plotting my second novel which I anticipate will be either erotic romance or erotica (I'll cross that bridge later). I came across the aforementioned thread tackling the issue of student/teacher relations and it seems to make the case that any student/teacher relationship scenario is a bad idea if I want to get this baby published by a mainstream (is that the right word?) trade pub.

Basically, my protagonist is 18 and two weeks away from graduating. She's had a thing for her art teacher (age 27-30, still undecided) since freshman year, but kept it a secret 'cause of rules and decency and stuff. Her teacher has never been anything but friendly and respectful, with maybe a side of playful because they're both a bit sarcastic. They have more of a peer relationship than a teacher/pupil dynamic and he sees great potential in her work. He even helped her get into a super prestigious art school, which feeds into their "friendship." (Think long hours working together, researching, talking shop, etc.)

My original plan was to have her catch him in a compromising position a week and a half before graduation, which would then inspire her to act on her feelings. He, on the other hand, is extremely against the whole thing because of his authoritative position, regardless of how soon she's graduating. A few days after that incident, there was going to be a scene in which she attempted to seduce him while on a school field trip, with him still objecting to the entire ordeal (though he is attracted to her...this is where that earlier thread starts to hit a little too close to home), after which it sort of turns into a "I want you to draw me like one of your French girls" scenarios. They don't touch each other until after she graduates, but I'm concerned that ANY sort of sexual interaction between them prior to graduation would place the story into taboo purgatory.

After some brainstorming, I thought I might instead push the "she catches him" scene to the school trip and nix any sexual interaction until after graduation, but work on building tension in the meantime (he's still extremely adamant that nothing can happen). I'll also mention that the story itself spans five years, so this is only a small portion of the overall plot, and her parents learn about it early on and allow it to continue because they trust the MC's judgment and deem her mature enough to handle it (plus, she's going away for college, so there's an expiration date).

What I want to know from all of you is:
1. Would her observing him doing something sexual (without his knowledge) prior to graduation still turn you off to either the teacher or the story overall? (The man is friggen mortified, if that helps.)
2. Would him displaying any sort of attraction towards her be a dealbreaker, even if (again) they don't touch until after she graduates? (His guilt over their attraction is a major aspect of his character arc and fuel for later relationship dysfunction.)
3. If I decided to query this as Erotica rather than ER (even if they end up together in the end), would that make a difference? The MC is going to have other partners and relationships at different points throughout the book, making it more about her journey than their relationship, but he's still a significant character at every point.

Again, sorry for the length! I didn't want to leave out anything potentially important (read: damning). I know this is a common trope and that it squicks some people out. My goal is to tell the story of this young woman's sexual journey/awakening in a way that is heartfelt and perhaps boundary-nudging, but without going so far as to make it too "niche" or unpublishable by mainstream pub standards. This isn't supposed to be "a story about an eager student seducing a hot teacher," but rather, "a story about a young, passionate artist who happens to have fallen in love with her hot, but hesitant, art teacher," if that makes a difference.

Thanks for reading (seriously, you deserve a cookie :e2cookie:).
 

MerryR

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I really had to think about this before forming an answer. The way people react to things will always vary and the subject is tricky. Let's be honest though, every girl crushed on a high school teacher at one point. That's fine. It's almost a given. Him thinking she's cute and being greatly disturbed by any attraction to her is also fine. Any action towards physical intimacy or even sexual encounters without actual touching taking place (with his knowledge) is a no in my opinion even if she is 18.

Okay, now with that being said, if she observes him without his knowledge that is a different situation entirely. He has no clue she's watching. Whatever it is he's doing, he believes he's doing in privacy. As long as it stays in that area, I'm cool with it. If he were to find out she saw him in that kind of situation, I could see him pushing her away and distancing himself as much as possible. This distancing will probably hurt her and him both since they developed a bond/friendship over the years.

Once they're out of that teacher/student area and she's done a little growing up, go for it. After a few relationships under her belt, she might be able to look at her affection for him in a whole new light. In the time spanning from when high school ends to when they finally get together, there's going to be a lot of changes in what they both want out of life. But maybe one thing didn't change. The attraction they felt for each other, but were unable to act upon for obvious reasons.

As for what genre to market, I believe more Erotica than Erotic Romance, but then again I'm just going off of a diagram I found on the website I'll link after this paragraph. Plus this sounds like more of a life journey for her. The audience gets to see her grow up with her relationships. Hope this was helpful and I look forward to hearing more about your book's progress! Good luck to you! :)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sorcha-grace/erotic-romance-vs-erotica_b_3606497.html
 

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Yes, sorry, I would find this icky. But not for the usual reasons. There's also a bit of disbelief too.

1. If he were to hook up with her soon after being with that other person, it would feel icky to me, because it makes him seem like a manwhore. HOWEVER, if she saw him, but nothing happened till years later, I'd be okay with that, depending on how it's written.

2. No, but see #1.

3. It doesn't seem like an erotic romance if it's more about her sexual awakening, because it doesn't seem to have an HEA.

Okay, the part that I DON'T buy AT ALL is the parents' roles in this. They know and yet they're fine with her pursuing him?
1) It's their child. I don't know of any parent that wouldn't object to this. They're basically giving their okay to sleep with him. Parents may know their child is not innocent anymore, but it doesn't matter how old their child is, they're going to want to stop it from happening, unless it's a spouse. My mom would have a cow and my dad would literally kill the guy.

2) She is 18 and he is 27-30. That's a HUGE age difference when you're that age. Again, no parent is going to be okay with that, because it makes them think their precious child will be losing their innocence.

3) He is in an authoritative position. If the parents knew about it, they'd consider it that he was abusing his power, is manipulative, is unethical. Doesn't matter if it's after her graduation. I'd be wondering how long it had been going on and if he used blackmailed her while she was his student. If a lot of time has passed and he is DEFINITELY nowhere near being an authority figure over her, it could possibly work.

If the parents aren't aware of it, or if they are but she is going behind their backs, I can buy it.

Hope this helps. :)
 
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Fruitbat

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I had a 30 year old boyfriend when I was a senior in high school. He wasn't a teacher but still, not all parents care. Looking back, it looks different as an adult.

I think this concept would be a hard sell. It's too close to child exploitation to be hot, imo, even if he doesn't act on his desires until she's older. Maybe it loses the creep factor if he's, say, 21 and a student teacher (college student) and she's 18, for example. Or if the crush is one way and he flat out turns her down with no reciprocation shown at all, then she moves on to a boy who shares a trait she was attracted to with the teacher. I don't usually read or write romance/erotica though so fwiw.
 
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ElaineA

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Well, I read and write romance and, I guess, erorom, and I'm pretty uncomfortable with a scenario that includes immediate-after-grad sex. I witnessed a similar scenario--hot young teacher all the girls loved, he stayed above reproach, then at our 10 yr reunion, we heard one of our classmates had had a summer fling with him her Jr or Sr year of COLLEGE. We all sort of heaved romantic sighs about it, and looking back on it as a parent, I still can't find the ick-factor. They waited a long time and she was an adult.

As to the parent thing...well, I live in the land of Mary Kay Letourneau, the teacher who had "consensual" sex with her 12 year-old student and got pregnant. They married and are still together, and I remember his family being...if not okay with it, at least supportive in a way. So what parents think or do...it's not exactly predictable. I'm less liable to buy "we trust her judgement" (your scenario) than "what's done is done." (Letourneau)

I think, from a market perspective, you'd be safer having them wait a decent period of time. I don't even think she needs to have other relationships, necessarily, just that she have some life experience and distance.

Oh, also wanted to remark that her "catching" him doesn't bother me. I'm not even sure I'd be bothered by him seeing that she sees, as long as he doesn't act on it. It'd be good conflict/tension to see them together, both knowing but staying mum.
 

StoryofWoe

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First of all, thank you guys so much for your input! It's always a little difficult to hear that the basis for one's story needs a major overhaul, but I figure it's better to deal with it at the planning stage. I guess I let myself become a bit too attached to the idea that my MC's art teacher was going to be her first because I adore him as a character and could see him being very patient and tender with her at such a volatile age, but I'm starting to realize that one of the reasons I like him so much is because he's not lecherous, and so beginning a relationship with a former student (literally days after graduation) wouldn't exactly mesh with his character arc. After reading your responses and thinking back over my own high school experience, I can see why this kind of relationship, at this poing in my MC's life, would be problematic.
Whatever it is he's doing, he believes he's doing in privacy. As long as it stays in that area, I'm cool with it. If he were to find out she saw him in that kind of situation, I could see him pushing her away and distancing himself as much as possible. This distancing will probably hurt her and him both since they developed a bond/friendship over the years.

Yes, the MC would be observing this event 100% without the teacher's knowledge. It completely alters the tone of their relationship, with her becoming more sexually aggressive and him asserting that nothing can happen until she after she graduates.

Once they're out of that teacher/student area and she's done a little growing up, go for it. After a few relationships under her belt, she might be able to look at her affection for him in a whole new light. In the time spanning from when high school ends to when they finally get together, there's going to be a lot of changes in what they both want out of life. But maybe one thing didn't change. The attraction they felt for each other, but were unable to act upon for obvious reasons.
This paragraph alone has convinced me that I need to rethink both my timeline and the order of events as they occur in the first half of the story. Right now, I have them entering into the relationship the summer after she graduates and then breaking up before she leaves for college, only to reconnect between her junior and senior year at her younger sister's graduation. Now I'm thinking it might be better to move the relationship to that summer (she'll be 21) and focus on her time in art school during the first 1/4-1/3.

It doesn't seem like an erotic romance if it's more about her sexual awakening, because it doesn't seem to have an HEA.

Okay, the part that I DON'T buy AT ALL is the parents' roles in this. They know and yet they're fine with her pursuing him?
1) It's their child. I don't know of any parent that wouldn't object to this. They're basically giving their okay to sleep with him. Parents may know their child is not innocent anymore, but it doesn't matter how old their child is, they're going to want to stop it from happening, unless it's a spouse. My mom would have a cow and my dad would literally kill the guy.

2) She is 18 and he is 27-30. That's a HUGE age difference when you're that age. Again, no parent is going to be okay with that, because it makes them think their precious child will be losing their innocence.

3) He is in an authoritative position. If the parents knew about it, they'd consider it that he was abusing his power, is manipulative, is unethical. Doesn't matter if it's after her graduation. I'd be wondering how long it had been going on and if he used blackmailed her while she was his student. If a lot of time has passed and he is DEFINITELY nowhere near being an authority figure over her, it could possibly work.

If the parents aren't aware of it, or if they are but she is going behind their backs, I can buy it.
You've given me a lot to chew on here (heh). Part of me wants to be like, "My MC is very precocious and mature for her age," but aren't they all? Reading that back to myself, it sounds more like I just really, really want to put these characters together, regardless of plausibility, because while SOME people might not be mature enough for this kind of thing, surely my MC is the exception, right? RIGHT??

As I mentioned above in my response to MerryR, I think it might make more sense and feel less icky if I push the relationship to the summer between her junior and senior year of college and focus on her art school shenanigans with people closer to her age. The only concerns I have about that are: 1. losing momentum/tension during that first summer before she leaves for art school, and 2. the fact that I really liked the idea of the art teacher being her first. However, seeing as I do in fact want them to have a HEA (or at least a HFN), I think their relationship would be more meaningful and have less of an ick factor if it occurred a few years down the line. Plus, I don't want her to lie to her parents about it and I especially don't want him to be the kind of person who would go along with that sort of deception.

I had a 30 year old boyfriend when I was a senior in high school. He wasn't a teacher but just saying, not all parents care. Looking back, it looks different as an adult.

I think this concept would be a hard sell. It's too close to child exploitation to be hot, imo. Maybe it loses the creep factor if he's, say, 21 and a student teacher (college student) and she's 18, for example. Or if the crush is one way and he flat out turns her down with no reciprocation shown at all, then she moves on to a boy who shares a trait she was attracted to with the teacher.
You know, I'd completely forgotten about it until you shared your own personal anecdote (thank you for that, btw), but I remember going on a very awkward date with a 22 year-old when I was sixteen and then later finding out that he had a 15 year-old girlfriend on the side, and being really turned off (for multiple reasons). I desperately wanted an older boyfriend, but I couldn't shake the feeling that the whole thing seemed predatory. My parents would've been okay with it, too, assuming the guy didn't come off as overtly sketchy, which is why I thought my MC's parents would be willing to consider it. They know this teacher, he's been a supportive figure in their daughter's life for some time, and they also know that she's been crushing on him since she was a freshman. I'd hoped that I could avoid painting the art teacher as lecherous by making him very reluctant to engage with my MC at first, but I can also see how this might be a difficult sell for a lot of people.

As for whether this is Erotica or Erotic Romance, I'm leaning towards Erotica because of the number of separate sexual encounters and the fact that it's more of a "this woman's journey" story than a strict romance. Then again, one of my favorite authors is Tiffany Reisz, and her Original Sinners series has been marketed as both even though her protagonist has sex with many different partners throughout the series. I suppose that's in the eye of the agent/publisher/beholder(?).

So, I guess my next step is going to be the restructuring the first few parts to focus on her college experience as the full introduction to her burgeoning sexuality. I have this funky plan to break the story into seven parts (I have no doubt this thing will hit the 90-100k mark) with mini-titles like The Art Teacher, The Muse, The Academy, The Collector, etc., as a way of moving forward through time and designating specific areas of personal and artistic growth for my MC. I know I can make this work. I just need to disentangle myself from it so that I can gain a better perspective. You guys have been immensely helpful. Thank you so much!

Oh, and in case anyone is curious, this project was inspired by a short story I wrote titled, "The Art Teacher" that was recently published in Best Women's Erotica 2015 (Cleis Press). The characters are completely different, as is the setting of the inciting incident (the MC catching her teacher doin' something dirty). I've had this idea brewing for quite some time and I'm really excited about it, which is why I had that "Oh God, am I shooting myself in the foot?!" moment when I read the other thread.

Thanks again to the three of you and anyone else who feels like chiming in. I'm VERY open to opinions and suggestions, particularly because I know my tastes tend to lean towards the darker side of almost every spectrum.

All right, back to the word mines with me.
 
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StoryofWoe

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Well, I read and write romance and, I guess, erorom, and I'm pretty uncomfortable with a scenario that includes immediate-after-grad sex. I witnessed a similar scenario--hot young teacher all the girls loved, he stayed above reproach, then at our 10 yr reunion, we heard one of our classmates had had a summer fling with him her Jr or Sr year of COLLEGE. We all sort of heaved romantic sighs about it, and looking back on it as a parent, I still can't find the ick-factor. They waited a long time and she was an adult.

As to the parent thing...well, I live in the land of Mary Kay Letourneau, the teacher who had "consensual" sex with her 12 year-old student and got pregnant. They married and are still together, and I remember his family being...if not okay with it, at least supportive in a way. So what parents think or do...it's not exactly predictable. I'm less liable to buy "we trust her judgement" (your scenario) than "what's done is done." (Letourneau)

I think, from a market perspective, you'd be safer having them wait a decent period of time. I don't even think she needs to have other relationships, necessarily, just that she have some life experience and distance.

Oh, also wanted to remark that her "catching" him doesn't bother me. I'm not even sure I'd be bothered by him seeing that she sees, as long as he doesn't act on it. It'd be good conflict/tension to see them together, both knowing but staying mum.
Thanks for chiming in!

Pushing their relationship to the summer between my MC's junior and senior year is exactly the compromise I'm going to make, mainly because I was already going to have them reconnect at that point, so it's an easy switch. I remember the Mary Kay Letourneau trial and the strange but, uh, romantic? for them? maybe? conclusion.

I probably won't have her remain a virgin until their eventual hook-up simply because one of her main character traits is that she's extremely eager to begin experimenting sexually, hence why she's rather heavy handed with her teacher. I really like your suggestion that he see her while he's in his "compromising position," but it's more of a "she catches him doing something solo" situation than "she catches him having sex," which kind of throws a wrench into that because he knows they're alone in a place she shouldn't even be and could get him into a lot of trouble (his hotel room, actually). I'm wondering if there's another way to create that tension through her attempts at seducing him.

In fact, I'll pose this to you and anyone else who wants to chime in:

In the week between her catching him and graduation day, how far could I take her attempts at seduction in an effort to build sexual tension, but without making it icky? He wouldn't be reciprocating or touching her, but ideally, I'd at least like to imply that he's attracted/aroused in the midst of his inner conflit. Can he stare? Can he breathe heavily? Can he take her aside and tell her that it's inappropriate and swallow hard when she, for example, lifts her dress or gives him a drawing she made of herself doin' sexy stuff?
 

NikiK

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Pushing their ages closer together might work better for your characters, otherwise you are going to have to take into account the very different stages of life your characters are in. Your young character is new to what my young friends call 'adulting' while your teacher has been doing this for a decade and is on a career track that could easily be derailed by his relationship with a former student so newly out of school. It doesn't matter how mature a student is, there is a huge learning curve that takes place the moment a person leaves the family nest and takes their place in the world out of high school.

Personally speaking, my husband is 13 years older than I. I made the decision to be with him while I was in my 30s, when I believed the age difference would have less of an impact on our relationship. We've been together for 15 years now, and there are still times where the gap between our ages looms large. Quite often when we appear in public together, he gets mistaken for my father by waiters, sales clerks, new co-workers, etc. We have huge differences in our music tastes because we grew up with different bands. Stories in the news affect us differently. He has memories and experiences of world events that I've only learned about in history books. Although we do have great communication with each other, we use different slang and express ourselves very differently. Even our diets were quite different when we first met because we had different food availability when we each were growing up.

After all these years, people still do a double-take when they learn of the age gap, and I can see that some people are not comfortable with it - especially in my family. All that being said, I love him to bits and wouldn't change the last 15 years for anything.

But I thought I'd throw my personal experience out there to perhaps help you figure out where your going with your characters and maybe give you a few new ideas to think about. Good luck with your writing.

(I just saw your last post before I hit the send button, so I'll give my answer to that question.)

I think showing his passion and restraint in the week before graduation is an excellent way ramping up the tension by showing his internal conflict. Showing the desire in his eyes as he stares at her taking in every detail of how she looks, having him have to turn away to hide how much it hurts that he wants her so badly but can't have her. There are so many ways you can show that he is fighting with his inner self as she attempts to seduce him. I don't think there would be an ick factor in that at all. In fact it can show the strength of his character which makes her respect him and fall in love with him even harder.
 

StoryofWoe

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Pushing their ages closer together might work better for your characters, otherwise you are going to have to take into account the very different stages of life your characters are in. Your young character is new to what my young friends call 'adulting' while your teacher has been doing this for a decade and is on a career track that could easily be derailed by his relationship with a former student so newly out of school. It doesn't matter how mature a student is, there is a huge learning curve that takes place the moment a person leaves the family nest and takes their place in the world out of high school...

Personally speaking, my husband is 13 years older than I. I made the decision to be with him while I was in my 30s, when I believed the age difference would have less of an impact on our relationship. We've been together for 15 years now, and there are still times where the gap between our ages looms large. Quite often when we appear in public together, he gets mistaken for my father by waiters, sales clerks, new co-workers, etc. We have huge differences in our music tastes because we grew up with different bands. Stories in the news affect us differently. He has memories and experiences of world events that I've only learned about in history books. Although we do have great communication with each other, we use different slang and express ourselves very differently. Even our diets were quite different when we first met because we had different food availability when we each were growing up.

After all these years, people still do a double-take when they learn of the age gap, and I can see that some people are not comfortable with it - especially in my family. All that being said, I love him to bits and wouldn't change the last 15 years for anything.

But I thought I'd throw my personal experience out there to perhaps help you figure out where your going with your characters and maybe give you a few new ideas to think about. Good luck with your writing.

(I just saw your last post before I hit the send button, so I'll give my answer to that question.)

I think showing his passion and restraint in the week before graduation is an excellent way ramping up the tension by showing his internal conflict. Showing the desire in his eyes as he stares at her taking in every detail of how she looks, having him have to turn away to hide how much it hurts that he wants her so badly but can't have her. There are so many ways you can show that he is fighting with his inner self as she attempts to seduce him. I don't think there would be an ick factor in that at all. In fact it can show the strength of his character which makes her respect him and fall in love with him even harder.
Thanks so much for your input, especially the personal details. They've definitely given me more to think about.

(Just a quick note, I'm going to bold some stuff below so that other people who want to contribute can catch it without having to read through all my rambling. I'm not yelling at you, I promise ;).)

See, on the one hand, I completely understand where everyone is coming from saying that the age difference is taboo and that there are going to be differences in maturity levels, etc. All of that is 100% valid and correct and I completely agree. The thing is, while I want these characters to eventually end up together, as the story currently stands, before any revisions, they break up at the end of the first summer for these exact reasons. She's too immature, he knows they're in different places. That summer is sort of their little utopian romp before the real world comes whooshing in and I'm having some difficulty figuring out where to pull conflict from if I remove these problematic elements: yes, they complicate things, but that's kind of the point.

I am by no means attempting to write an "18 year-old falls in love with her 27 year-old teacher and they all live happily ever after" story. That said, I still want their romance to be a romance, or at least erotica with romantic elements. I don't want it to squick readers out. I don't want them to think he's taking advantage of her.

I'll elaborate a bit, in case this helps: one of the major plot points is that, during that summer between high school and college, the MC decides it would be a better idea to switch schools in order to be closer to her boyfriend/former teacher. Now, she's slated to go to a highly prestigious art school that said boyfriend/teacher helped her get into, so he's pretty upset by this. He knows she has what it takes to be a successful, celebrated artist, but he also knows she's stubborn and determined, so he ends the relationship a few weeks before she's supposed to leave so that she now has no reason to stay. I'm having trouble coming up with a comparable conflict/reason for their break-up later, since it makes less sense to me that she would think to transfer out of a great school when she only has one year left. An impulsive 18 year-old? Definitely. A 21 year-old soon-to-be-senior? Not so much.

I suppose another alternative might be to have them "together" over the summer, but not let them have sex. Then again, that sounds like the literary equivalent of blue balls. Ouch.

Gah! Everything is unraveling. *breathes into paper bag* I'm okay.
 
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Alli B.

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You've got enough opinions so I'll just let you in on reality:

My cousins girl got with a teacher and it lasted for a year. No one knew until another girl caught them kissing in class like idiots. She was ridiculed to death because of social media and despite the affair being consensual, he's in jail for rape. She's going to graduate this year which means they started dating earlier when she was 16.

I think most girls chose a loser their first few go arounds and at least he treated her well. But my entire family looks at him like a sick predator. I think this is how a good hunk would look at the teacher regardless how noble you make his case.

I bet it'd sell like crazy in YA though.
 

ElaineA

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Don't forget to put your head between you knees, Story. It's gonna be fine.

*prepare yourself for a long-ass post*

First, another anecdote on the age thing. I met my husband when I was 23. He's 9 years older than me and was a fully established attorney making partner that year. My mom set us up. So the age/experience gap...I'm not convinced it's a huge problem once she's off and established at college.

You say "as the story stands now" but I think my reading of the thread leads to the conclusion that the whole timeline is going to have to shift, so what stands now isn't really relevant, from the perspective of the actual details of the scenes. Maybe focusing on the rising tension between them in broader terms can help (if you'll pardon a little brainstorming in your thread):

1) She sees, she wants
2) She takes steps to convince him, he says no
3) She goes off to art school unfulfilled
4) They reunite (short term? summer fling that ends)
5) They reunite (long term? HEA/HFN)

You've got 1. handled, no change needed really unless you want to make it more fraught by having him know she saw him. She watches him doing whatever he's doing, it turns her on, she sets her sights on him.

2. You probably don't have to do much shifting around the first part-- she's going to try to entice him. But instead of them getting together, he doesn't bite. So what do you do to cause a "break up"? One thought I had was maybe they are doing something together the summer between HS & AS--maybe he had already secured her a position volunteering in the summer arts program for kids at the local community center. So that they're in the same orbit, she's not giving up, but he doesn't act on it. (But lots of opportunity for rising sexual tension.) Maybe her flirting gets him into hot water with the head of the program, even though it's not his doing, and he decides to not finish the summer and bolts. She can go through the whole gamut of emotions and perhaps finally understand that her pushing led to her losing what she wanted. It would also expose their relative immaturity/maturity (since he handles it correctly and she is all sorts of arrogant teenager)

3. She goes off to art school

4. They run across each other at some point--maybe on her 21 run, or at a club somewhere. Or maybe he's at the school b/c he's got a new candidate he's helping to get in. Then they can have their summer fling, but she's going back to finish school (b/c like you say, one more year) and he's got to go back to his teaching gig.

5. Here's where I'm unsure of the trajectory of your story. Do you show the HEA/HFN? I suppose at the end of 4 you could have your HFN. It's only a year for her to graduate and they can get back together then. Or, if they part with messy crying at the end of 4, 5 is your opportunity for them to get back together for realz. :)

I don't envy you having to rebuild your idea of what your story looks like. It's like designing a house, imagining where all the walls and rooms are, and then realizing you have to have a great-room concept instead of a bungalow. But your set-up is strong and you admire your characters, so it's just a matter of finding the scenarios that can serve as good replacements. I can see lots of options from my non-emotionally-invested position, but of course I don't know anything more than you've shared here about the story.

Maybe stepping back for a bit would be helpful...give some new ideas room to germinate. Good luck with it!
 

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A girl who was a year ahead of me in high school married our Latin teacher two weeks after she graduated, the day after her 18th birthday. Apparently they'd been having a "thing" for a while, but no one knew until all of a sudden "Hey, I'm Mrs. Latinteacher now!"

He was 42, by the way...

That said, reality and fiction don't always mesh. Something that could happen in real life and go smoothly might be soundly panned by readers and publishers (assuming you go with a publisher rather than self-publishing).

Back in the 1980s, there was a novel by Norma Klein; the title escapes me now, but one of the two female lead characters, who was an 18-year-old high school senior, started an affair with her 28-year-old teacher. He divorced his wife (their marriage was on the rocks anyway, hence the affair from his perspective) and married the girl. It would be considered a YA novel.

Personally, as a reader, *I* would not have a problem with the story as you initially described. The teacher puts her off until she is of legal age and is no longer one of his students. To me, that moves it out of "hell to the no" into "maybe a little sketchy, but acceptable." However, as you've seen from others' responses, many readers would not accept that set-up.

My advice would be to write the story *you* want to write. If you feel strongly that their initial sexual encounters should take place the summer after she graduates, write it that way. If you feel strongly that you should change that aspect, change it.

Everyone has opinions, and you'll definitely get a feel for what some people will think by asking for feedback on forums like this. But at the end of the day, it's YOUR story...you need to base your decisions about it on what YOU feel is right, not on what other people say you should or shouldn't do.

(This is coming from someone who posited a story idea on a different forum, was shouted down and harassed about it--and is currently working on that story because the publisher I was targeting wanted it and said they would back me against any negative repercussions.)
 

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First off, I feel like I can empathize. I am in the process of editing a first draft MS and while there were scenes and plot points that I had seen with crystal vision, I am now deleting them and revising them, to tighten up the story.

With the high school angle, you are automatically going to be alienating some publishers and some readers. Bump it to college and open many more doors for your work.

You can still have a conflict rich environment and a virginal FMC. Make the MMC a TA to keep it more mainstream, or go full on older professor risking his tenured job. Instead of a prestigious college, make it an internship or an apprenticeship. Imagine the MMC breaking it off because your FMC was willing to turn down a chance to learn from the great Blah Blah in Florence.

You have a great premise, but you have to decide how mainstream you want to make it.

Of course this is only my opinion, feel free to mock it and ignore it :D


I second what KimJo has said, write your story. I am only offering an idea to make it a little more palatable to a larger audience, but if it doesn't ring true then by all means do not listen to anything I said.
 
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ElaineA

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Despite my "brainstorming" post, I do totally agree with KimJo (and Callegro) about writing the story you want to write. That's first and foremost.
 

Cathy C

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Here's the thing with me: Would it affect your story if you moved 10 years in the future? What if all you say about the crush and her witnessing him, happens while in college, and then ithe whole story reboots a decade later? If it would change your vision of the story by having them be 25 and 35, then you have to think about why you're doing it. Remember that your reader base is either going to be New Adult, where your original scenario might work, or, as you say, mainstream romance, where it likely won't. NA features touchier issues than adult romance, where boundaries are explored. But a lot of mainstream readers will be squicked by things that appear in NA, and frankly, in some YA. Weird, but true.
 

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Student/teacher is an erotica and erotic romance trope so I guess it would play for wherever these are published--but I would consider it a soft kink even where it is not technically illegal.
 

StoryofWoe

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Wow, you guys are awesome! You've given me so much to think about and even went so far as to suggest possible alternate scenarios. Seriously, thank you.

I'm going to take some time to let all of this marinate and give myself a little distance from the story. I have a flash fiction series in the works, so I can shift priorities until I have a more solid idea of where I want to take things.

I guess I see my story as being somewhat comparable to Leah Raeder's Unteachable, which would put it firmly in New Adult, though her story takes place *during* senior year, while my characters wouldn't be getting busy until after graduation and they wouldn't even get their HEA/HFN till five years after that. I followed Leah's self-publishing thread here on AW and it sounds like she had some major success even with the taboo subject matter, seeing as how she's now repped by Jane Dystel of Dystel & Goderich and published by Atria with her 2nd novel due out in April. Granted, agents didn't come knocking until after her self-pubbed book was already selling well. Interestingly, her MC is also an 18 year-old girl, but her MMC is a 32 year-old man (though you don't find that out till later in the story). It's funny, in the thread I linked at the very beginning, she'd posted a comment saying that her book wasn't a Romance. Ah, the shifting sands of publishing.

A huge thank you to everyone who read and replied to my thesis of a thread. To Alli B. for the personal story, KimJo for reminding me that the most important thing is to write the book I want to write (and to Callegro and ElaineA for echoing, plus all the fabulous suggestions). Cathy C, your expertise and genre knowledge is always appreciated, and veinglory, I agree, teacher/student is probably a soft kink, but one the NA crowd might embrace...maybe.

Lots to ponder. I'm sure I'll be back with more questions. :)
 

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Yes these books are morally dicey, and aren't they huge hits in self publishing land?
 

StoryofWoe

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So, about that break I was going to take...

I had a mini-epiphany this morning in that hazy period between bizarre dreams and wakefulness. I think I'm trying to turn backstory into story. What I mean is, I really like the idea of her being a precocious teenager and the scene where she "catches" her teacher and their should we/shouldn't we sexual tension, but if I'm being perfectly honest, I'm not all that jazzed about writing her as an 18 year-old (what Cathy C said about jumping 10 years ahead really solidified this for me). I'm not even all that excited about delving into her college experience. What I've shared with you guys is only the first 1/3 of the book and while the teacher is her main love interest, the protag has other partners. So much stuff happens after college when she's a little older and in a more mature headspace, which is where I like her best.

I think I've been looking at this too linearly. I could open with her being back in town for her sister's graduation and let all the stuff that happened before reveal itself via detailed flashbacks and dialogue and then let the affair occur in the few months before she goes back for senior year, like many of you have suggested.

Going forward, my question for those familiar with mainstream Erotica and Erotic Romance (and I'm wondering if this thread might actually be better served in the Erotica forum, but that's up to the mods) is: Does starting my MC at age 21, with one more year of college to go, still pin this story in New Adult territory, even if it then spans the next 5-6 years and I don't go into great detail re: her college experience? I have to say, I don't read a lot of New Adult, but the few books I have read are of a completely different tone than what I'm hoping to accomplish with this story now that I'm ripping up the floorboards.

At the same time, I'm also presented with the question of how I go about integrating all of this backstory without stunting the narrative. Of course, I'm going to poke around the site and read craft books and Google articles on seamless flashbacking, etc., but if anyone with more experience has any ideas or advice, I'd love to hear it. :)

With all the high school and early college stuff relegated to backstory, the story feels less top-heavy and gives me a lot more room to play. I was initially avoiding sending her overseas because I'm horrible with foreign languages, but that seems like a cop-out. Just think of all the fun, sexy adventures she can have as a free-spirited (adult) artist in beautiful, far-away locales!

Again, thank you all. :)
 

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Does starting my MC at age 21, with one more year of college to go, still pin this story in New Adult territory, even if it then spans the next 5-6 years and I don't go into great detail re: her college experience? I have to say, I don't read a lot of New Adult, but the few books I have read are of a completely different tone than what I'm hoping to accomplish with this story now that I'm ripping up the floorboards.

:)
People are looking for new and different in this category all the time.
You can bring in a lot of backstory through dialog.
 

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Going forward, my question for those familiar with mainstream Erotica and Erotic Romance (and I'm wondering if this thread might actually be better served in the Erotica forum, but that's up to the mods) is: Does starting my MC at age 21, with one more year of college to go, still pin this story in New Adult territory, even if it then spans the next 5-6 years and I don't go into great detail re: her college experience? I have to say, I don't read a lot of New Adult, but the few books I have read are of a completely different tone than what I'm hoping to accomplish with this story now that I'm ripping up the floorboards.


Again, thank you all. :)

As the author of a controversial NA book which inspired many a pitchfork review for falling outside the norms of what romance readers find acceptable, I still second what others have said and think you should write the story you want to write. But be prepared for the backlash if you go that route. Having said that, my book has had its haters but most of the reviews are 4 and 5 stars, and readers like that I stretched those boundaries. It is still my largest seller. I think that's because of the forbidden element in the story line, and my flawed, anti-heroine FMC. So I'd write the story I want and include what you believe gives it meaning. Many readers will recoil from a story that doesn't conform to their vision of right and wrong, and they are entitled to their dislike. Your story sounds similar to one of my current wips, in that my FMC is a student (19) and my MMC is her Business Studies teacher. I'm not changing that aspect of the novel, in fact, that 'forbidden' element is what creates some of the best conflict and makes it interesting and fun to write. However, the MMC is 28, having just done his teacher training after working a few years in business, and is on his probationary year post-grad. Icky for some? Oh, yeah. Am I going to change it? No way. If you can engage your readers they'll root for your characters HEA/HFN all the way to the end.

Re the age of your MC, that is firmly in the NA ball park, but it's not exclusive to NA territory. My first NA started out with my FMC aged 18 and the MMC is 27, then it jumps seven years into the future, with her at 25 and him at 34. There is no mention whatsoever of her college-aged years except for during a job interview: someone looks at her CV and sees that she went to secretarial school and and that's all I needed to do to fill in that blank. Re: tone, the book is VERY different in tone to much of the contemporry NA (which seem to mainly comprise of characters at university, experiencing first serious relationships, work-study angst etc). Regardless, my publisher put this book in the NA category, despite hero's initial age of 27 and both their ages in part two (2/3 of the book). I also cross-over with adult, so they stuck a sub-category of Adult Romance, but most of my demographic is NA.

Hope this helps.
 
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StoryofWoe

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People are looking for new and different in this category all the time.
You can bring in a lot of backstory through dialog.
Both very valid points!

As the author of a controversial NA book which inspired many a pitchfork review for falling outside the norms of what romance readers find acceptable, I still second what others have said and think you should write the story you want to write. But be prepared for the backlash if you go that route. Having said that, my book has had its haters but most of the reviews are 4 and 5 stars, and readers like that I stretched those boundaries. It is still my largest seller. I think that's because of the forbidden element in the story line, and my flawed, anti-heroine FMC. So I'd write the story I want and include what you believe gives it meaning. Many readers will recoil from a story that doesn't conform to their vision of right and wrong, and they are entitled to their dislike. Your story sounds similar to one of my current wips, in that my FMC is a student (19) and my MMC is her Business Studies teacher. I'm not changing that aspect of the novel, in fact, that 'forbidden' element is what creates some of the best conflict and makes it interesting and fun to write. However, the MMC is 28, having just done his teacher training after working a few years in business, and is on his probationary year post-grad. Icky for some? Oh, yeah. Am I going to change it? No way. If you can engage your readers they'll root for your characters HEA/HFN all the way to the end.

Re the age of your MC, that is firmly in the NA ball park, but it's not exclusive to NA territory. My first NA started out with my FMC aged 18 and the MMC is 27, then it jumps seven years into the future, with her at 25 and him at 34. There is no mention whatsoever of her college-aged years except for during a job interview: someone looks at her CV and sees that she went to secretarial school and and that's all I needed to do to fill in that blank. Re: tone, the book is VERY different in tone to much of the contemporry NA (which seem to mainly comprise of characters at university, experiencing first serious relationships, work-study angst etc). Regardless, my publisher put this book in the NA category, despite hero's initial age of 27 and both their ages in part two (2/3 of the book). I also cross-over with adult, so they stuck a sub-category of Adult Romance, but most of my demographic is NA.

Hope this helps.
Yes, it most certainly has. :) The more I pull this story apart, the more it seems to want to weave back together into its original form. I don't consider myself to be a stubborn writer and will gladly reduce an 8k word chapter to 500 words if I think the text isn't cutting it, but this feels more like me being skittish and that's something I do not want to foster. Thank you for sharing your experience and expertise. I think it's about time I just sat the heck down and started writing.
 

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Both very valid points!


Yes, it most certainly has. :) The more I pull this story apart, the more it seems to want to weave back together into its original form. I don't consider myself to be a stubborn writer and will gladly reduce an 8k word chapter to 500 words if I think the text isn't cutting it, but this feels more like me being skittish and that's something I do not want to foster. Thank you for sharing your experience and expertise. I think it's about time I just sat the heck down and started writing.

When a story wants to get written, it wants to get written! Many well-intentioned writers told me my heroine would never appeal to readers (and she doesn't, to a few hundred! LOL). They said I should up her 'nice' factor and her age bc 18...no way. They advised me to change what she did and make my hero less flawed. I did all of that, changing her character, upping her age, making the hero all warm and fuzzy...and I frickin' hated that book! Every time I tried to re-write it to conform to what would sell or make other people happy, the writing dragged. Overthinking can be a huge book-joy killer. So I stopped and wrote the book I wanted, the characters I wanted and I gotta say it was the best decision I ever made. People rooted for my heroine, they fell in love with her in spite of her (many) flaws and the same for hero. The book might have sold had I made all the tweaks I thought were 'right', but it would not be the story I wanted to tell. The trick is to consider every angle you can, make tweaks you think will improve the book and, IMHO, tell the story that sets your blood on fire!
 
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