Great, here comes another first time novelist with an epic.

D.AllenGriffith

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Not sure where's the best place on the forum for this, but it seems like a good question for an agent.
I'm an experienced writer who's been out of the game for a while. Getting back into it with my first novel and pretty happy with the way it's going so far. Trouble I'm having is that the overall plot is huge. It's a science fiction world hopper involving 12 1/2 different worlds (there's a reason). I can probably rush it and squeeze it all into a decent word count, but I know it would be lacking. I can see it being a trilogy, but I can also see aproaching it as a series of stand alones with a continuous plot. Question is, how does this effect my chances of being published as a debut novel?
 

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It depends. Really it does.
If your novel is good enough to break the rules then I've heard editors say fairly recently that they don't see enough SF.
 

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If you are an experienced writer, you already know the answer to such questions. Any story can be told in one novel, and it won't be lacking, if you do your part. A trilogy is tough to sell. A long series with one story is even tougher to sell.

The only good I see coming from the fact that it seems almost every writer out there wants to start with a trilogy, or a long series, is that it makes life infinitely easier for those who want to start with hone book, one story.
 

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Write a stand lone, then get it published then, write another stand lone...and so forth.

Stories are about people in crisis, and how they manage to get through (or don't) and the consequences’ of their actions while attempting to get through.

All you need to do is just a write one story at a time.
 
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quicklime

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agreeing with everything JAR said, especially the first two lines--I'll give you the caveat you may be an experienced writer but not experienced in the business aspects of publishing commercially, but what everyone is saying is spot-on:

1. The bigger the work the harder it has to work to pull its weight. Its just a larger risk for the publisher

2. You can split it, perhaps, or do other things to change your count

3. (and this one should be in bold, because it is discussed far less than the first two points) as mentioned, ANY story can be shortened to one book. You may not WANT to, but that's an entirely different issue....
 

D.AllenGriffith

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Thanks all for chiming in. There seem to be varying schools of thought on the issue which is good.
I'm an experienced writer, but not a published one and not an experienced novelist. Most of my other stuff has been written for performance.
I think what I have a hold of here could be boiled down to one book, but it would be rushed and I think a lot of potential would be missed. I myself prefer to read books that are part of a larger volume. I think the thing I need to ask myself is if this project is one that I should risk putting out as a an unknown, and if so, should I expand it further to be a series of shorter books or three longer ones?
While I agree that every story can likely be told in one book, I'm not sure that they allshould be. My library is full of examples to that effect. That said, I don't want to be one of those writers that stretches a story beyond it's limits because he can't kill his darlings.
I don't want to jeopardize my chances of being picked up, but neither do I want to sacrifice content. Quite a gamble.
 
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Debbie V

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Before deciding what makes sense in terms of marketing, please finish the draft. Sometimes we think one thing half way through and realize we need to do something else as we wind down and edit. You won't know until you've got a complete manuscript to consider. You can decide how best to present this story at the editing phase, perhaps even after a complete edit.

If your work has been performed, that qualifies as published to me.
 
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Just finish it first. I reckon that 50-80% of people who say they have an epic novel in them never finish it anyway so theres a 50-80% chance you won't have to worry about it. Please don't worry about how big it'll be!

On more inspirational news, I reckon it'll take a good 9 books and a million words to tie my particular debut novelist epic up. My poor agent. But she said yes. So you have a chance.
 

D.AllenGriffith

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Before deciding what makes sense in terms of marketing, please finish the draft. Sometimes we think one thing half way through and realize we need to do something else as we wind down and edit. You won't know until you've got a complete manuscript to consider. You can decide how best to present this story at the editing phase, perhaps even after a complete edit.

excellent point. I may be jumping the gun and thinking about it too much and should decide all of that in rewrite.

If your work has been performed, that qualifies as published to me.

Even if it was just me and a bunch of puppets?
 

D.AllenGriffith

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Just finish it first. I reckon that 50-80% of people who say they have an epic novel in them never finish it anyway so theres a 50-80% chance you won't have to worry about it. Please don't worry about how big it'll be!

I finish things. Just not always when I think I'm going to because I'm always busy finishing other things.
On more inspirational news, I reckon it'll take a good 9 books and a million words to tie my particular debut novelist epic up. My poor agent. But she said yes. So you have a chance.

That is encouraging.
 

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I found my agent with a book that I queried as the first in a possible series. And the two I've written in the year since are also both firsts in trilogies. (Mind you, we haven't sold any of them yet. Which is one reason the current project is a standalone.)

But we (my agent and I) also talk pretty extensively about how best to tie up these first books so that they are satisfying for the reader, but lead into the next part of the larger story arc.

Write the first book and see where you sit. If it needs to be broken up further and fleshed out more, you can always do that then. If it seems like you've reached a good stopping point, but there's potential for more books later, you can always query that way. A lot will depend on what things look like once the words are on the paper and you won't know that 'til you've written them.

Best of luck! :)
 

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Genre matters hugely

In fantasy it's easier to sell a three book series or trilogy at many pubs. SF I am less sure on, but I've seen a lot of series there too lately (This is the UK though so bear that in mind!)

However, you still need the first book to stand alone well, even if ends ripe for a sequel.
 

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First books MUST stand alone, as other have said, because:

1) All books should.

2) If the first book doesn't sell well — they probably won't want the next one. This also depends on if you have a three-book deal, etc.

Also, debut novels over 100,000 words are a hard sell. They take up more shelf space and are more expensive to produce (physically). A lot of editors are hesitant to take them on from debut authors. The REAL trouble is when you're querying a 138,000 word novel. Best to cut that baby down or turn it into two books.

I think the maximum word count I've seen editors take is 109,000 for debuts. Max.

Granted, these vary between science fiction and fantasy, and their sub genres.
 

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I think the maximum word count I've seen editors take is 109,000 for debuts. Max.

Granted, these vary between science fiction and fantasy, and their sub genres.

And also between markets (UK Word counts tend to be longer -- I've seen a major agent say 140k is the sweet spot for debut fantasy, but you still need to make all those words work!)
 

D.AllenGriffith

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I've read that around 125k is acceptable for sci-fi, which is what I'm doing. It's also humorous satire, which tends to make the words fly by.
Some of my favorite reads in the last few years have been trilogies by debut authors, but those we self published. That's always an option, by I'm already a man of many hats.
 

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And also between markets (UK Word counts tend to be longer -- I've seen a major agent say 140k is the sweet spot for debut fantasy, but you still need to make all those words work!)

Very true! UK is definitely longer.
 

LaneHeymont

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I've read that around 125k is acceptable for sci-fi, which is what I'm doing. It's also humorous satire, which tends to make the words fly by.
Some of my favorite reads in the last few years have been trilogies by debut authors, but those we self published. That's always an option, by I'm already a man of many hats.

I doubt 125k is salable for a debut author, unless it's brilliant.
 

D.AllenGriffith

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I doubt 125k is salable for a debut author, unless it's brilliant.

You could be right. The articles and forums I've read this in didn't specify, they were speaking generally of acceptable word count for various genre. 125k is definitely on the outside for sci-fi. One said 150 but I think that's pushing it.
.....and if I do say so, it may, in fact, be brilliant. Or it may be rubbish. My perspective is somewhat clouded.
 

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I doubt 125k is salable for a debut author, unless it's brilliant.

I don't know about science fiction, but in epic fantasy, there are quite a few debut authors who manage to sell books over 125,000 words.
 

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I don't know about science fiction, but in epic fantasy, there are quite a few debut authors who manage to sell books over 125,000 words.

Probably because they're brilliant :). It's been done before, of course, but you should write like you're the rule, not the exception.
 

D.AllenGriffith

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Probably because they're brilliant :). It's been done before, of course, but you should write like you're the rule, not the exception.

Possibly to a degree, but if everyone followed this philosophy we would lack for ecxeptional writers.
 

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Possibly to a degree, but if everyone followed this philosophy we would lack for ecxeptional writers.

Problem is then everyone thinks they're the exception (which many do), and shoot themselves in the foot by not following the rules. I get hundreds and thousands of queries — the majority of which follow the rules. Some do not. I'm talking 125k, 160k, 253k word manuscripts. These are almost never ready, because the author has not taken the time or recognized their work needs editing. They often think every word NEEDS to be there, when I assure you, it usually does not.

I urge authors to follow the rules. If your manuscript is over 109k words, chances are you'll have a harder time finding an agent than if your ms was shorter.
 

D.AllenGriffith

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Don't get me wrong, i'll probably snip out over a third of what I have already written, losing some damned funny dialogue in the process. It's lining up all of the salient plot points and seeing what my chatacters have to do to to make it happen that makes me think it might be too big. It's not even really too big when compared to some of my favorite reads, I love a good series or trillogy, but maybe a hard sell as a first timer.
 

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I think it might make sense to listen to the agent who is offering you advice right now.

And yes, maybe it is too much for a first timer. Maybe you should, when you finish this series, write another book that's a standalone, or at least "a standalone with series potential" and attempt to shop that one. There's no timeline in being an author. Something I just adore. Trust me, when you come from acting and especially as a woman who is an actor, not having to worry about how old you are or have that pressure of "is it too late?" is just wonderful. You have time to be strategic, to make the best decisions for your writing. Don't sacrifice that advantage due to either ego or impatience. Or both.
 
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D.AllenGriffith

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I am definitely considering all of the advice I've been given. I'm thinking I might want to put this wip on ice and write something shorter for a first pub. Come back to it when and if I have a proven product.