issues with my WIP

celticroots · Feb 19, 2015

I've been having issues with one of my WIPs. I am not sure why my antagonist (who is using his daughter to do his dirty work)-why he is so angry with the family that my MC works for as a servant.

I was thinking that antag could still be harboring resentment over the event, so he gives off the impression that he is still friends with the man who is the head of the family.

This has been really bothering me and I don't know the reason could be for the two men's falling out. They are both merchants and the story takes place in Scotland in the 1590s.

NinjaFingers · Feb 19, 2015

I'd say it could be over some kind of deal that went very sour indeed. Are they in the same business?

neandermagnon · Feb 19, 2015

a woman? ...as in they were both in love with the same woman and it went pear shaped and they both blame each other? Or they were in love with each other and that went pear shaped.

Or some deal/bargain/business venture that went pear shaped.

If you don't want to make one character the bad guy in whatever it was that made them fall out... have it be a complete misunderstanding or miscommunication, Shakespeare style.

jpoelma13 · Feb 19, 2015

So your antagonist uses his daughter to do his dirty work? What if the head the family is aware of this, and punished him or confronted him about it?

celticroots · Feb 19, 2015

I like those ideas. But would it make sense for their children be arranged to marry? Because Antag has harbored feelings of resentment for years, but never talk about it? Which gives the other family the impression that everything is fine. Antag wants his daughter to marry his former friend's son, so he can ruin the family's life. Yes they were in the same business, although I am not sure what options the Antag could take to ruin their business in the 16th century.

jpoelma13 · Feb 19, 2015

celticroots said:
I like those ideas. But would it make sense for their children be arranged to marry? Because Antag has harbored feelings of resentment for years, and wants his daughter to marry his former friend's son, so he can ruin the family's life.

I don't understand how the antagonist marrying his daughter could be used to ruin someone's life, unless that daughter is spying on the former friend's family. Could your antagonist use his daughter's spying to gain inside information into his friends business and steal his trade secrets?

celticroots · Feb 19, 2015

Yes he uses his daughter's spying to gain inside information into his friend's business. So they could steal his trade secrets.

jpoelma13 · Feb 19, 2015

celticroots said:
Yes he uses his daughter's spying to gain inside information into his friend's business. So they could steal his trade secrets.

So, your antagonist's primary motivation for being the antagonist is profit. Let's see if we can expand on that motivation. Why is your antagonist so obsessed with money? Maybe his wife is from a ranking noble family, and he wants to provide her with the kind of life she is used to. Perhaps he is addicted to gambling and needs to pay off his debts. Perhaps he is very ambitious and wants to accumulate wealth as a status symbol? So tell me what his motivations are, Celticroots; that information would help come up with better ideas about what events could set him fighting with his friend..

RN Hill · Feb 19, 2015

When I get stuck like this, I ask the characters.

Seriously. Just open a new Word document and start typing from their POV. First person. Whatever comes to mind, write it. You'd be surprised what you can get out of a session like that.

1590s Scotland - could very well be political, too.

celticroots · Feb 19, 2015

He grew up in a family of wealth, but never got along with his father, so his accumulating wealth influences how he felt about himself. He wanted to make his father proud by becoming successful. And also provide his daughter with what he felt he lacked growing up.

Mr Flibble · Feb 19, 2015

celticroots said:
I was thinking that antag could still be harboring resentment over the event,

I've read your post and this stuck out

What event? Did I miss it in your OP ? (that happens)

Without any context it's really hard to say tbh.

jpoelma13 · Feb 19, 2015

Good lord, Celticroots this man is supposed to be backstabbing his best friend, but you've written a character who wants to make his father proud and provide for his family. Loving people don't back stab their best friends or use their daughters to steal trade secrets. The character you've created simply isn't villain material.

Let's think about villains for a moment. By "motivated by profit," I don't mean making his daddy proud, I mean pure greed. I'm saying that this man's desire for money and status goes far beyond anything reasonable. I'm talking about people who use and manipulate others so they can have more money, the kind of people who are selfish and cruel and have no empathy, and destroy anyone who gets in their way. I'm talking about people whose self esteem is so tied to their wealth that they will do anything have more money. You know like narcissistic corporate executives. It's just suggestion that could help you deepen the motives for your character.

Mr Flibble · Feb 19, 2015

I feel like I've walked in on a convo I wan't aware of, and am now bewildered...
Backstabbing? Best friends?

???

To help, we need info. Context. etc.

celticroots · Feb 19, 2015

neandermagnon said:
a woman? ...as in they were both in love with the same woman and it went pear shaped and they both blame each other? Or they were in love with each other and that went pear shaped.

Or some deal/bargain/business venture that went pear shaped.

If you don't want to make one character the bad guy in whatever it was that made them fall out... have it be a complete misunderstanding or miscommunication, Shakespeare style.

^

The event- business deal that soured, both love the same woman- I haven't decided which yet, but something like these suggestions, is what fueled the antag's anger over the other guy's success. Or it could be that the Antag is just greedy, but I feel like that's making him two one dimensional. I still want to keep his daughter in the story since she makes things worse for MC.

Brightdreamer · Feb 19, 2015

celticroots said:
^

The event- business deal that soured, both love the same woman- I haven't decided which yet, but something like these suggestions, is what fueled the antag's anger over the other guy's success.

Well, why not combine them? They were friends, and there was a business deal - perhaps they were supposed to be partners, but either there was a miscommunication or the other guy fudged things - that went south. As a result, the other guy succeeded while the antagonist was cut out and failed... so the girl naturally picked the richer guy over the antagonist. (At least, that's how the antagonist sees it, as he's nursed the grudge and magnified the infraction over the years. In truth, the girl may never have seen him as more than a friend, or she never knew he liked her that way; she picked the other guy because that's who she loved, but of course the antagonist can't accept that. There has to be someone to blame, not only for his struggling business but for his failed love life.)

Roxxsmom · Feb 19, 2015

There are a kajillion reasons why this character can be a bundle of contradictions. It's possible for someone to both love and hate someone, or to feel like something horrible he or she is doing, even to a loved one, is for the greater good, or to have conflicted feelings about money and profit, his dad, and also, some higher sentiments too. Even robber barons and crime lords often have people they love in their personal lives. And it's possible for someone to love another person very much but to be very dysfunctional in how they express it.

The thing is, no one knows this man better than you, since you are his creator. There are different possibilities, of course. One is that he really isn't the character you originally planned, and the story is going in a different direction. Another is that you need to change how you're writing him and make him more conventionally "evil," or give him a clearer motive to hate your protagonist. Yet another is that you need to explore his internal conflicts more thoroughly and come up with something that feels plausible.

The open up and start writing might be useful. Another is to conduct a fake interview with this person. Ask him questions and see what falls out. Some people swear by this as a way of finding a character's voice, motivations and personality. Maybe he's a narcissist, maybe he's got daddy issues, maybe he loves his daughter but is a product of a culture or family that regards offspring, especially female ones, as property, like a favorite dog or a horse. Maybe money symbolizes something else for him. Maybe there's some betrayal or slight, real or imagined, that he's been nurturing for years re the main character.

celticroots · Feb 19, 2015

Roxxsmom said:
There are a kajillion reasons why this character can be a bundle of contradictions. It's possible for someone to both love and hate someone, or to feel like something horrible he or she is doing, even to a loved one, is for the greater good, or to have conflicted feelings about money and profit, his dad, and also, some higher sentiments too. Even robber barons and crime lords often have people they love in their personal lives. And it's possible for someone to love another person very much but to be very dysfunctional in how they express it.

The thing is, no one knows this man better than you, since you are his creator. There are different possibilities, of course. One is that he really isn't the character you originally planned, and the story is going in a different direction. Another is that you need to change how you're writing him and make him more conventionally "evil," or give him a clearer motive to hate your protagonist. Yet another is that you need to explore his internal conflicts more thoroughly and come up with something that feels plausible.

The open up and start writing might be useful. Another is to conduct a fake interview with this person. Ask him questions and see what falls out. Some people swear by this as a way of finding a character's voice, motivations and personality. Maybe he's a narcissist, maybe he's got daddy issues, maybe he loves his daughter but is a product of a culture or family that regards offspring, especially female ones, as property, like a favorite dog or a horse. Maybe money symbolizes something else for him. Maybe there's some betrayal or slight, real or imagined, that he's been nurturing for years re the main character.

Since he uses his daughter to do his dirty work, which he believes is for the good of them both, I was thinking about making the daughter the antagonist. Given she's wealthy, she already hates the MC who she feels is beneath her. She also hates MC because she sees that her betrothed and MC are starting to fall in love. And MC is getting closer with the lady of the house. So she views MC as a threat that needs to be eliminated.

jpoelma13 · Feb 19, 2015

celticroots said:
^
Or it could be that the Antag is just greedy, but I feel like that's making him two one dimensional.

I apologize. Sometimes I find it difficult to keep my own writing style out of my comments. One-dimensionality should certainly be avoided. Normally , the way I portray the antagonist in my stories depends on how the POV character views the antagonist. If the POV character truly hates the antagonist, then I would portray the antagonist as a one-dimensional villain to reflect the POV's character's lack of empathy for the antagonist. Of course creating a POV character who hates people is a very dark writing style, which may not be what you're going for in a story.

Ok, let's try this again, celticroots. This time I will attempt to keep my writing style out of it, and focus on what you are trying to accomplish. You said you wanted the antagonist to be angry with the other guys' success. People often feel angry when they feel that they have been been treated badly. Perhaps the antagonist could have made a deal with other merchant, and felt that the other merchant ripped him off. (The antagonist could be dead wrong.) That would make all of this a revenge ploy.

celticroots · Feb 20, 2015

Thank you for the answers everyone.

issues with my WIP

celticroots

NinjaFingers

neandermagnon

Nolite timere, consilium callidum habeo!

jpoelma13

celticroots

jpoelma13

celticroots

jpoelma13

RN Hill

celticroots

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

jpoelma13

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

celticroots

Brightdreamer

Just Another Lazy Perfectionist

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

celticroots

jpoelma13

celticroots