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BartlebySays

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Hello all.

The forum header said, "… and getting to know the community."

I have a question about the community - I've looked and looked, but can not find a place for asking questions - so I'll ask here and assume the mods will move it to the correct place, if this is not such.

Is anyone else taken aback by the mods closing threads (see: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302074) or, apparently, deleting posts?

This is a "writer's" community, no? Don't writers rail against censorship, of any kind?

Why is this acceptable?

Please help.
 

Osulagh

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This is a "writer's" community, no? Don't writers rail against censorship, of any kind?

Why is this acceptable?

It's called regulating the community. It's not exactly censorship as the mods and admins help remove problematic disturbances from the community; they don't remove content that otherwise was not disruptive.

Would you like a community filled with terrible people doing what they wished? Trolls, asshats, advertisers?

Also, not all writers or people go against censorship. In fact, most passively support it by not publishing content that is targeted for censorship. Most, though, are against wrongful and unjustified censorship.

The internet and the forums on it are communities, and to have a stable community there needs to be regulations, rules, and guidelines--both directly stated and inferred.
 

Fingers

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If you have a problem with a mods decisions, you should be sending the mod a polite pm and discuss this off the boards. Questioning a mod decision publicly like this will normally get you nowhere.
 

Ravioli

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It's nice to have a heated discussion and all, but when things get slanderous, ad hominem/personal, bullying etc., well, they should be disappeared. No valid reason exists for these things to be tolerated or committed in the first place.

Note members can delete their own posts; it's not always the mods.
 

kuwisdelu

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Also, it's very rare for mods to delete posts. That's usually reserved to blatant trolling or spam.

Most of the time, posts just get moved to TIO.
 

CassandraW

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Hello all.

The forum header said, "… and getting to know the community."

I have a question about the community - I've looked and looked, but can not find a place for asking questions - so I'll ask here and assume the mods will move it to the correct place, if this is not such.

Is anyone else taken aback by the mods closing threads (see: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302074) or, apparently, deleting posts?

This is a "writer's" community, no? Don't writers rail against censorship, of any kind?

Why is this acceptable?

Please help.


This is a privately owned site, and the First Amendment doesn't apply. As you can tell when going to unmoderated sites, when no one is moderating, things rapidly degenerate into idiotic, vicious, pointless pissing matches.

I've had a couple of my posts deleted by mods when I got a little testy or when they felt my sense of humor was a bit over the top, and while I didn't always agree with the decision, I'm here as a guest. As a guest, I agree to abide by the rules of the site, and I'm welcome to express my views elsewhere or start up my own website if I don't like it here.

As it happens, I do like it here. And overall, I think the mods are quite fair and do a fine job striking a balance between competing views.

So no. I'm not taken aback. At all.

If you really have a problem with a mod decision, it's best to take it up privately and politely with them in a PM.
 
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Mr Flibble

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That thread is locked for mod review,almost certainly because complaints were made about posts


This is a big site, with thousands of members, In order to keep things civil mods sometimes lock a thread to review it before reopening (or not)

We are writers

That doesn't mean we can't be arsehats on occasion and need a gentle reminder not to be

Frankly, being a mod here is like herding cats -- it's going to be hard ork and you'll end up with scratches. But they do their best to keep things civil. Sometimes this involves things you do not see - PMs etc.
 

BenPanced

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Sometimes, they'll also delete a duplicate post if they can't merge it into another thread; usually, the OP will, as well.

And censorship only applies to government entities. This is a privately-owned facility run by volunteers; people get up in arms occasionally about their free speech or First Amendment rights being violated when a thread or post gets deleted but those rules go only so far on AW. As pointed out above, if a thread gets truly contentious, the only options a mod might have are either shut the thread down temporarily for everybody to cool down, leave it shut down because it's beyond saving, or, as a final, last, extreme resort, ban posters completely for being trolls or spammers. Many forums don't bother with this but AW isn't like many forums. Because of the span and size of the place, it gets patrolled more often than others I've been on.
 

CassandraW

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Re first Amendment

If the OP is outside US jurisdiction it does not apply

RYFW does

It doesn't apply anyway, even if we were all in the U.S., because AW is a privately owned entity.

Mac and the mods are free to restrict comments they think don't follow the RYFW rule, and we are free to leave if we don't like it.

Seems pretty reasonable to me.
 

Osulagh

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In addition: Everything we call the internet is owned by others and they have the freedom to do what they wish with it. Facebook and Twitter, for example, can take down anything if they so desire to. They own the servers the information you sent is on. Thus, the first amendment does not cover the internet.

And, the first amendment doesn't mean you can't be sued or silenced. You have the freedom of speech, as in you can talk to yourself in a room where no one can hear you. You don't have the freedom to be heard, nor the freedom to speak over others--resulting in taking away their 'given' freedom. High school kids learn this quick when they try speaking when the teacher is talking and they can be kicked out of school for doing this enough times. They are taking away the teacher's freedom of speech given to them for the purpose of educating others. The student has suppressed that.
 

benbradley

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Hello all.

The forum header said, "… and getting to know the community."

I have a question about the community - I've looked and looked, but can not find a place for asking questions - so I'll ask here and assume the mods will move it to the correct place, if this is not such.

Is anyone else taken aback by the mods closing threads (see: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302074) or, apparently, deleting posts?

This is a "writer's" community, no? Don't writers rail against censorship, of any kind?

Why is this acceptable?

Please help.
What other forums have you been on? Maybe Usenet newsgroups? (not to be confused with Google Groups email lists, as Usenet newsgroups can also be accessed through Google Groups)? Reddit? 4chan?

Do you feel there are other forums (whether for writers or not) that are better managed than Absolute Write? This is a serious question. If you know of some, I'd really like to know what they are, and maybe what they do differently that you think is better.
 

cray

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the temptation to delete this thread is irresistible.
 

zanzjan

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Is anyone else taken aback by the mods closing threads (see: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302074) or, apparently, deleting posts?

This is a "writer's" community, no? Don't writers rail against censorship, of any kind?

You may find it worthwhile to read the Newbie Guide. As others have said, this is a very large community, and to keep it functioning and useful and welcoming, we need members to adhere to RYFW -- Respect[ing] Your Fellow Writer.

When things cross out of a respectful dialogue, sometimes a mod will lock a discussion to keep it getting more out of control while the situation is looked into more deeply. Also, sometimes acrimonious conversations spill over into complaints, PMs, and/or other threads, which isn't always apparent to the participants in the original threads, and sometimes makes it harder for mods to untangle the larger issue at hand. There are not a lot of us, and we have jobs, families, and other responsibilities that sometimes preclude instant attention. There are, however, none of us who are not committed to the integrity of conversation to the highest extent we are able without sacrificing the community as a whole for it. Not everyone agrees with the judgment calls we make, and we're not infallible, but we very often have a much better big-picture view of what's happening, and we are always open to respectful questions about why we did (or did not) take certain actions when trouble flares up, and there is always the option to take a complaint about mod actions to Mac, who is the owner of the board.

I will also note that mods very rarely delete posts that aren't open trolling or spam, because we DO believe very strongly in people -- especially writers -- owning their words. I did not see any deleted posts when I first read through the thread you reference earlier this afternoon, but if posts have been deleted, they will say by whom, and if it was deleted by a mod, a reason will be given.

Does that answer your question?
 

CassandraW

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the temptation to delete this thread is irresistible.

That stuff I said about mods being fair and reasonable and doing a fine job and not just deleting stuff randomly?

To clarify, I didn't mean cray.
 

Kylabelle

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:popcorn:

*watches cray resist the irresistible.*

He's doing pretty good!
 

CassandraW

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Pffft. He can't hold out. It'll never last.

:popcorn:
 

BartlebySays

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You may find it worthwhile to read the Newbie Guide.

Please forgive me for not knowing how to use the multi quote option within a single post - I realize my answering this way will make it hard for others to respond in kind. And, Yes, the first thing I did was read the Newbie Guide. I don't believe my question is answered there.

As others have said, this is a very large community, and to keep it functioning and useful and welcoming, we need members to adhere to RYFW -- Respect[ing] Your Fellow Writer.

Sure. But "useful" and "welcoming" and "respectful" are subjectively measured. Locking a thread because members are disagreeing might be considered disrespectful to some.

When things cross out of a respectful dialogue,

Again, this is very arbitrary. I was participating in the above thread and didn't feel I was being disrespectful nor receiving disrespect. The discussion was perhaps heated, but to lock it?

sometimes a mod will lock a discussion to keep it getting more out of control

I can't imagine who was out of control


... Also, sometimes acrimonious conversations spill over into complaints, PMs,

Sure. That's why I believe a membership would want to see situations resolve in open forums. No behind the scene alliances to be concerned about.


and/or other threads, which isn't always apparent to the participants in the original threads, and sometimes makes it harder for mods to untangle the larger issue at hand.

I don't understand what this means/implies. If you suggest members are grinding axes that have roots elsewhere, it seems to me a warning and or points for them are in order. I don't see how that affects the discussion the rest of the posters are having.

There are not a lot of us, and we have jobs, families, and other responsibilities that sometimes preclude instant attention.

I don't know why you mention this. I mean, sure, of course, and thank you for your service. But what has that to do with closing a thread?

There are, however, none of us who are not committed to the integrity of conversation to the highest extent

Sounds good. What's that mean, exactly? Majority rules? Tenured members? Mods?

we are able without sacrificing the community as a whole for it.

Sacrificing the community? I'm sorry, but it sounds like I'm in church.

Not everyone agrees with the judgment calls we make, and we're not infallible, but we very often have a much better big-picture view of what's happening,

Taking care of the small picture often serves the big picture quote nicely. I expect not censoring threads would be good for the big picture too.

and we are always open to respectful questions

That is good to hear. And reasonable.

about why we did (or did not) take certain actions

I respectfully ask, Why was the above listed thread closed?

when trouble flares up, and there is always the option to take a complaint about mod actions to Mac, who is the owner of the board.

Sure. Thanks for that info. But at this point I'm just curious.

I will also note that mods very rarely delete posts that aren't open trolling or spam, because we DO believe very strongly in people -- especially writers -- owning their words.

Now you're talking!

I did not see any deleted posts when I first read through the thread you reference earlier this afternoon,

Yes, I had no specific posts in mind. Just that I had read somewhere else that is was done. Seemed reasonable to inquire about that at the same time.

but if posts have been deleted, they will say by whom, and if it was deleted by a mod, a reason will be given.

Okay, I didn't know that. Thank you.

Does that answer your question?

A good chunk of it. Although not satisfactorily yet.

But I certainly appreciate your efforts. And apparent sincerity. So thank you for that.
 

BartlebySays

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the temptation to delete this thread is irresistible.

I'm guessing that comment was intended for the audience. To be wry, or ironic. Maybe even sardonic.

But the OP is left to take it at face value. And consider it either a mock or a threat.

Does that mean this thread will be getting locked because of disrespect? Your's of course.
 
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CassandraW

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Threads are not locked because members are disagreeing. We disagree all the time. I've argued a minority position against a thread full of people for days at a time. But as a rule, I do it respectfully and discuss the position rather than making personal attacks, so I rarely get spanked. (That said, it's happened a couple of times. It's happened to most of us when we got a bit heated. No biggie. You move on.)

Threads are locked when members are being disrespectful or offensive to one another, or when someone complains that they are, and the mod needs time to review the thread to see whether the complaint is valid. I believe that is what is happening in the thread you're talking about, based on my quick read of it.

There's no such thing as a "tenured member" and while many people here have developed friendships with one another over time, your reference to "behind the scenes alliances" sounds, well, kind of paranoid. Hang around here and post a lot, and you'll become a known entity, and unless you're a troll, you'll make friends.

Perhaps a moderated community is not for you. That's for you to decide. If you're looking for complete freedom to say whatever you feel like, however you feel like saying it, this isn't that place. You may have to start your own website, if that's what you demand.
 
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CassandraW

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I'm guessing that comment was intended for the audience. To be wry, or ironic. Maybe even sardonic.

But the OP is left to take it at face value. And consider it either a mock or a threat.

Does that mean this thread will be getting locked because of disrespect?

cray is kidding. You may notice that many of us are kidding back. You may also have noticed that we're not being banned or censored.
 

BartlebySays

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This is a privately owned site, and the First Amendment doesn't apply.

Hi, Cassandra, and thank you for replying.

I said nothing about the First Amendment. Zero. And you are not the only poster that commented thus. Censorship need not only be applied by a government. Censorship is a restriction of speech, a suppression of the exchange of ideas. I detest it.


As you can tell when going to unmoderated sites, when no one is moderating, things rapidly degenerate into idiotic, vicious, pointless pissing matches.

Sometimes. But not always. My experience is the membership creates the type of community that they want. It's not that hard to run off trolls and spammers. They're dolts, for the most part.

Plus, where did I suggest the board be unmoderated? Are these the only two choices? Mods determine what gets said, what gets removed, or, no mods?



I've had a couple of my posts deleted by mods when I got a little testy or when they felt my sense of humor was a bit over the top,

I think that is shameful. Testy happens. So does over the top. Don't we encourage writers to "let it out," to go "over the top" in their writing? But on a writer's board it's a crime?

and while I didn't always agree with the decision, I'm here as a guest.

I thought you were a member. Doesn't membership have it's privileges?

As a guest, I agree to abide by the rules of the site,

The rules of the site seem rather vague on what is appropriate content.

and I'm welcome to express my views elsewhere or start up my own website if I don't like it here.

Well, sure.

As it happens, I do like it here. And overall, I think the mods are quite fair and do a fine job striking a balance between competing views.

So no. I'm not taken aback. At all.

If you really have a problem with a mod decision, it's best to take it up privately and politely with them in a PM.

And here, I must disagree again. Not about being polite, I am almost always polite. But if the disagreement is about a public topic, it seems to me the healthiest resolution would be handled publicly.

Or, do you prefer your mods, and their actions, to be above reproach.
 

BartlebySays

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... If you're looking for complete freedom to say whatever you feel like, however you feel like saying it, this isn't that place. You may have to start your own website, if that's what you demand.

Maybe you could point out where I suggested such? Either such?

Or are you one of those people who suggest any position you don't agree with falls on the absolutely farthest extreme of the spectrum?
 

CassandraW

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Mac pays to keep up this site. The mods here are unpaid volunteers who put a lot of time in. So yeah, I'm a guest.

And being a "member" doesn't mean you are free to do whatever you like. I am a "member" of my gym. That gives me the privilege of working out there, provided I abide by the rules. It doesn't mean I can run around flicking towels and disrupting people's workouts.
 
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