What is Worship?

Lady Esther said:

As a Christian, here's how I (personally) see it (and this is my long answer, so bare with me):

God is all good. He created everything to be good. His desire was for everything He created to live in peace and fulfill the assignments they were created for. And because there was peace and fulfillment in everything He created, all of creation loved God, understood God, and worshiped Him.

However, after a while of seeing everything operate in it's God-given assignment, God decided to open up "choice" to everyone. First to the angels and then to humans. He wanted us to have the choice of whether or not we would do what He created us for or to do whatever we desired.

God didn't want His creation to love Him because He made us love Him. He wanted us to love Him because we chose to. Because we saw all our options (good and bad) and chose to love Him above everything sin - a life without God - had to offer.

There was no such thing as "choice" before God created it and gave us the will to use it. Without "choice" the angels served God and worshiped Him, and humans did the same, always feeling peaceful and fulfilled, never feeling empty or confused about life, existence, or God.

Now, since God is all good and His purpose for us is all good, then that makes the opposite of God and the opposite of His purpose all evil. (I hope I didn't lose anyone.)

Now, Lucifer (Satan, the angel who we consider all evil) was the first living creature to use "choice" to leave God and make his own purpose for himself. Why? Because Lucifer wanted God's creations to worship him instead of God.

So, when God created humans, Lucifer deceived us by making us think we could live a better life without God. So when Eve chose to do what she wanted (bite the fruit that God told her not to touch) she brought all evil into God's good world.

Anything sad, tragic, bad, evil, and not good are all on Earth as a result of sin, of choosing to be without God, who is all good.

That's why God is all good, because He only wants good for us. Anything not good is a result of sin.

That's why when something good happens, we thank God. But when bad things happen, it is because WE (human beings) chose to live by our own evil desires. Bad things NEVER happen because God made them happen. Bad things happen as a result of sin.

I know this is a lot. I wrote it rather quickly, so excuse me for not editing. I'm rather busy today. But I had to take a stab at the original question. I hope this helps.

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I have wondered, why is okay for God to want to be worshipped, but bad for anyone else? It seems like such a narcissistic and petty thing to want from your creations. There are lots of books and movies such as Frankenstein where the creation turns on the creator for similar reasons. Personally, as I had read the Bible, I was put off by that character flaw in god. I didn't feel very sympathetic to his cause.

Underdawg47 said:

I have wondered, why is okay for God to want to be worshipped, but bad for anyone else? It seems like such a narcissistic and petty thing to want from your creations. There are lots of books and movies such as Frankenstein where the creation turns on the creator for similar reasons. Personally, as I had read the Bible, I was put off by that character flaw in god. I didn't feel very sympathetic to his cause.

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I suppose it depends on what one means when they say "worship". How does one define "worship" anyway?

Sun Father sends the war gods to lead us to the surface, because he is lonely, and there is no one to offer him prayer sticks and prayer meal.

But we also offer prayer sticks and prayer meal to other gods, and to our ancestors, so Sun Father is not unique in that regard.

In my culture, one can offer those things to raw people (gods, dead ancestors, animals, i.e., any who eat raw food), but it would be inappropriate to offer them to daylight people, or "cooked" people (humans, i.e., those of us who eat cooked food).

Just like us, the gods expect something in return for their efforts. The same is true of our dead ancestors, and for animals (you would make an offering to the animal when hunting, for example).

Would you consider that worship? "What constitutes worship" is probably a question for its own thread...

Underdawg47 said:

I have wondered, why is okay for God to want to be worshipped, but bad for anyone else? It seems like such a narcissistic and petty thing to want from your creations. There are lots of books and movies such as Frankenstein where the creation turns on the creator for similar reasons. Personally, as I had read the Bible, I was put off by that character flaw in god. I didn't feel very sympathetic to his cause.

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Not here to argue, just want to present an earthly perspective. If you have children don't you want them to respect you and listen to you, especially since you're 20+ years older than they are and have experienced more things than they? Don't you want them to love you and be loyal to you--they came from your own body, after all. You raised them, invested in them. Wouldn't you be hurt if they chased after other parents and, essentially gave you the middle finger? Gave present to other parents on father's/mother's day and ignored you entire existence?

I'd be hurt.

Same principle with God. Nothing narcissist about it at all, it's just about wanting to love your creation and be loved by it. As in human household there's going to be rules: Bedtime at 9pm. Finish your meal before dessert. Brush your teeth before bed, etc. etc.

Worshiping God isn't strenuous--for me it's observing the Holy Days written in Leviticus 23 and just obeying His word the same way I would obey my earthly father. If you're okay with rules in your house, which are reasonable--why not be okay with the rules of God which are also reasonable?

If you set down rules for your own children, which you expect them to follow and if you want them to obey, respect, and love you, does that make you a narcissist as well?

Quentin Nokov said:

Not here to argue, just want to present an earthly perspective. If you have children don't you want them to respect you and listen to you, especially since you're 20+ years older than they are and have experienced more things than they? Don't you want them to love you and be loyal to you--they came from your own body, after all. You raised them, invested in them. Wouldn't you be hurt if they chased after other parents and, essentially gave you the middle finger? Gave present to other parents on father's/mother's day and ignored you entire existence?

I'd be hurt.

Same principle with God. Nothing narcissist about it at all, it's just about wanting to love your creation and be loved by it. As in human household there's going to be rules: Bedtime at 9pm. Finish your meal before dessert. Brush your teeth before bed, etc. etc.

Worshiping God isn't strenuous--for me it's observing the Holy Days written in Leviticus 23 and just obeying His word the same way I would obey my earthly father. If you're okay with rules in your house, which are reasonable--why not be okay with the rules of God which are also reasonable?

If you set down rules for your own children, which you expect them to follow and if you want them to obey, respect, and love you, does that make you a narcissist as well?

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I think there is a big difference between wanting to be loved and respected than demanding of worship. You can't make someone love you and you have to earn someone's respect. A good parent would realize that there will be other people in the child's life that they will love and respect such as good teachers, grandparents, and even close friends.

But worship to the point of saying, Thou shalt not put any other god before me" sounds like jealousy. I mean having that statement as one of your main laws seems rather insecure, and petty, especially with threats of damnation after death because of it. I doubt any good parent would say something like that.

kuwisdelu said:

As I see it, it's about balance. The good comes with the bad, and there is no way around that. Without the bad, we would not know how to appreciate the good.

And learning how to find happiness even in the midst of misfortune is part of growing up.

Our gods don't protect us from darkness and unhappiness, because that is not their role. They are there to guide us on a journey through life, and sometimes that means facing difficulty.

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First, thank you for sharing the story of your gods. That was really interesting for me to read, and enlightening.

Second, I think your conclusions are pretty spot-on for everyone. Whether we believe in one God or many gods. Thank you.

As Sass mentioned up thread, this entire thread has been very helpful and enlightening and thought-provoking. Thank you to the OP for posting this, and thank you to everyone who has posted his/her thoughts.

Quentin Nokov said:

Not here to argue, just want to present an earthly perspective. If you have children don't you want them to respect you and listen to you, especially since you're 20+ years older than they are and have experienced more things than they? Don't you want them to love you and be loyal to you--they came from your own body, after all. You raised them, invested in them. Wouldn't you be hurt if they chased after other parents and, essentially gave you the middle finger? Gave present to other parents on father's/mother's day and ignored you entire existence?

I'd be hurt.

Same principle with God. Nothing narcissist about it at all, it's just about wanting to love your creation and be loved by it. As in human household there's going to be rules: Bedtime at 9pm. Finish your meal before dessert. Brush your teeth before bed, etc. etc.

Worshiping God isn't strenuous--for me it's observing the Holy Days written in Leviticus 23 and just obeying His word the same way I would obey my earthly father. If you're okay with rules in your house, which are reasonable--why not be okay with the rules of God which are also reasonable?

If you set down rules for your own children, which you expect them to follow and if you want them to obey, respect, and love you, does that make you a narcissist as well?

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As a believer in the Christian God...I think this is an excellent metaphor. For some reason I feel it's never been put to me in exactly this way, and I have never thought of it this way either. Whenever someone tells me they think the God of the Bible is just selfish, I remember the verse (though can't quote it or tell you where it is) that quotes God as saying, yes, He IS selfish.

ETA: after reading Underdawg's response: I do understand what you're saying, but God never forced anyone to love him. That's the whole free will thing - he wants us to choose on our own to love and respect him.

But I've heard that said of parents who want to have children to carry on their own legacy and knowledge, and I'm not sure that's exactly right. That is exactly why we have children, right? To love, yes. But to carry on everything we know in hopes of making this world a better place?

Though probably it isn't that thought-out. I have no children from my own womb but a stepdaughter I love as my own. So I can only speak to the reasons behind having children from what others have said. And there certainly are many who didn't plan their children at all.

Wow..that got very off topic.

kuwisdelu said:

I suppose it depends on what one means when they say "worship". How does one define "worship" anyway?

Sun Father sends the war gods to lead us to the surface, because he is lonely, and there is no one to offer him prayer sticks and prayer meal.

But we also offer prayer sticks and prayer meal to other gods, and to our ancestors, so Sun Father is not unique in that regard.

In my culture, one can offer those things to raw people (gods, dead ancestors, animals, i.e., any who eat raw food), but it would be inappropriate to offer them to daylight people, or "cooked" people (humans, i.e., those of us who eat cooked food).

Just like us, the gods expect something in return for their efforts. The same is true of our dead ancestors, and for animals (you would make an offering to the animal when hunting, for example).

Would you consider that worship? "What constitutes worship" is probably a question for its own thread...

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I consider worship to be something that comes entirely from those who feel the need to thank a god for a gift or perhaps showing great respect for someone you hold in high esteem. I see nothing wrong with showing one's appreciation for gifts or recognizing someone for their great efforts, as long as the recipient of such praise doesn't demand it or get jealous of others who receive it instead of themselves.

RichardGarfinkle said:

MOD NOTE:

This isn't a warning, just a question. The matter of worship, as kuwi says , is probably worth a thread on its own. Would you all like me to split off the worship posts into a new thread?

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Underdawg47 said:

I consider worship to be something that comes entirely from those who feel the need to thank a god for a gift or perhaps showing great respect for someone you hold in high esteem. I see nothing wrong with showing one's appreciation for gifts or recognizing someone for their great efforts, as long as the recipient of such praise doesn't demand it or get jealous of others who receive it instead of themselves.

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Richard, I say go for it and thanks.

Underdawg47 said:

But worship to the point of saying, Thou shalt not put any other god before me" sounds like jealousy. I mean having that statement as one of your main laws seems rather insecure, and petty, especially with threats of damnation after death because of it. I doubt any good parent would say something like that.

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Alpha, perhaps you're referring to this verse: Deuteronomy 4:24 "For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God."

As of right now--in this world--God isn't concerned about making people love him. If that were the case then all the Pharisees who rejected Christ would have to have been stoned to death for denying him. If that were the case then every non-believer would have been struck down by a bolt of lightning by now.

I believe that the day will come when everyone will stand before God. People who don't believe will have no other choice but to believe.

A better analogy for why God is a jealous God, is the same reason why a husband would be jealous if his wife chased after other men. It's call spiritual fornication. You read through the prophets and count how many times Israel is called a harlot because they go after other gods (which neither see, nor hear, nor think, nor feel). You'll find that the word "harlot" is used often.

In the world tomorrow, the reason why people would be put to death for putting other gods before the God of Israel is because that's what Lucifer did. Lucifer (Satan) tried to make himself as god. It's rebellion and (my) God doesn't give rebellion a free-pass. Yes, we have free-will, so long as it stays within His laws. This world has turned so evil and corrupt and it all stemmed from one rebellious act. That's why God is going to squash seeds of rebellion before they grow into something bad. His Kingdom is NOT going to be anything like ours. It really will be a Utopia. Completely perfect.Not corrupt. Honest. Kind. That's the world I want to live in and if rebellious deeds are going to alter that, I'd rather have them stomped out early than to live in a world like this again.

(The below section is a little off topic, but I want to keep it in the post anyway)

Also, I think people have a different view on damnation than I do. I think many people think that on judgement day, God's going to go over everybody's sins and the very wicked will be immediately cast into the lake-of-fire. I don't believe that. I believe everyone will have a chance to know God; the atheist; the homosexual; the murderer; the rapist; Pharaoh; Hitler; Stalin everybody.

Isaiah 65:20 "There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."

After all, how can God judge an infant who died days after birth? It's believed, by my sect, that the verse above is saying that everyone will have 100 years to redeem themselves. The infant and the sinner--and those who still sin at the end of the 100 years--having seen God and known him will then be accursed and doomed for damnation.

It's not really a second chance, because God hasn't called people in this world. Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Romans 1:28 "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"

Romans 11:32 "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."

God has allowed the people of this world to be blinded, so that he can have mercy on them in the future. Because if people really do hear with their ears, see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, but still go and sin against God, God has to judge them accordingly. My God does not show partiality in judgement, so being merciful, he keeps them blind and ignorant to save them from eternal damnation.

I see the kind of worship in the Christian god in a similar way that I see concepts I can only describe as, kissing ass, brown nosing, etc. I really can't think of a one word English term that can describe it except for praise, congratulating, thanking etc. But praise means to thank someone without wanting something in return. But Christians do want something in return, they want eternal life after death and to live in heaven. God makes an afterlife conditional on that people worship him, and do all he says, and the alternative is eternal punishment.

If I believed in a god like that, then I would be kissing lots of ass myself,and living in fear. Personally, I don't want to live my life being afraid, and it is certainly hard for me to feel much love and sympathy to a being I fear so much. Having to walk on eggshells around a jealous being capable of such great wrath doesn't sound like my idea of paradise.

I would much rather have a god that says, Wow! Look what I made! instead of one that says, You must love and obey me or else...

RichardGarfinkle said:

I have to say that worship is the religious concept I have had the most difficulty with. I don't see what it brings to the people, the deities involved or the religion.

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It brings a sense of community, for me at least. Although I have always been spiritual, I took a prolonged break from organized religion once I moved out of my parent's house. What brought me back was a longing to be part of something larger in a more tangible way. It's comforting to be in a room with 300 other people who believe (for the most part) as I do.

Worship also gives me access to people who can help guide me. Not only priests/pastors/ministers/etc, but fellow worshipers. The friendships I've developed through my church activities have been among the most fulfilling, and I've learned tons about living a better life through their examples.

I've also learned how to identify my core beliefs and how to disagree with people respectfully. The religion I practice lends itself to pedantry, lip service through standardized prayers and gestures, and rigidity by falling back on doctrine. Discerning free thinkers who have a message I can learn from and who's just a whacky sycophant has been a valuable skill! Being placed in close proximity with such people has forced me to find ways to deal with ideas I find misguided at best and outright dangerous at worst.

I see two things going on with worship: There is the individual relationship I have with God, and the relationship I have with my faith community. God doesn't care if I hit my chest when saying "through my fault" or if I kneel when the little bell rings. He (she/it/them--I'd be okay with however it turns out) does care if I'm participating out of a desire to make contact with my fellow humans, and doing so in a way that enriches their experience. However, since I have chosen to be part of that community I am expected to adhere to its rituals to at least some degree. I don't hit my chest, I do kneel, and so on. At some point, if I don't participate to a certain degree perhaps I'm better off finding a different community to be part of (and I have considered it, but so far have found plenty of intellectual and personal freedom that it's not been necessary for me to leave).

Great discussion, everyone!

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

I've got a memoir on this topic. The answer for me is that worship is simply a means to experience joy. And proves nothing for or against the existence of God or gods.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

I have a hard time with "worship" as well.

If someone said "show gratitude" or "show affection" or "show awe" I'd be fine with those or some similar expression (freely expressed). But if that's worship then I worship quite a few people.

Quentin Nokov said:

Not here to argue, just want to present an earthly perspective. If you have children don't you want them to respect you and listen to you, especially since you're 20+ years older than they are and have experienced more things than they? Don't you want them to love you and be loyal to you--they came from your own body, after all. You raised them, invested in them. Wouldn't you be hurt if they chased after other parents and, essentially gave you the middle finger? Gave present to other parents on father's/mother's day and ignored you entire existence?

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When I talk to my children about being kind or respectful (to me or anyone else), the reason why isn't ever because of the status or position of the person. It's simply because they *are* a person.

(Or an animal, for that matter. Or a tree, even.)

Quentin Nokov said:

I'd be hurt.

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Of course. But would you then smite them?

As someone who believes in reincarnation it is not about worshipping some god, it is all about trying to understand my place in the universe. Realizing that I am just a part of a larger organism.

RichardGarfinkle said:

I would tend to call that mindfulness and/or compassion and/or really thinking and working. I'm all in favor of those and think people should be doing it most of the time. It's also something that nearly anyone of nearly any religion or philosophy can get behind and do.

It's certainly devotional, but is it worship? It seems to lack the supernatuarlly directed aspects often associated with the word worship.

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By striving to make your acts be your prayers, you make room in your heart for God.

When I think of the word worship, it conjures images on people bowing down before idols, or prostrating yourself on the ground facing east, or hands clasped together in prayer, usually in some particular place designated as sacred ground. Humbling themselves before some idol or unseen deity and allowing themselves to believe in a magical realm.

RichardGarfinkle said:

I would tend to call that mindfulness and/or compassion and/or really thinking and working. I'm all in favor of those and think people should be doing it most of the time. It's also something that nearly anyone of nearly any religion or philosophy can get behind and do.

It's certainly devotional, but is it worship? It seems to lack the supernatuarlly directed aspects often associated with the word worship.

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Sat Nam! (Literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Of course, it's worship. Most religions have a requirement of service to others. For many of us, especially those of us who practice Eastern religions, it's a way of worshiping the Divine as the Divine manifests in others.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal