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efreysson
12-18-2014, 02:39 AM
I'm planning to end my newest WIP with a barefisted duel to the death between my protagonist and a gigantic berserker.

The big guy is protected by a lot of flesh and a thick skull, and is a seasoned warrior and extremely tough. On the other hand he is missing an eye, is prone to blind rage, and with all that bulk isn't terribly fast.

This will be the climactic fight between two warriors who really hate each other and I need it to be good. The idea is that the hero knows very well he can't win a slugfest, so he tries to use footwork, throw dirt and spew blood into his good eye and attack the blind side, trying to strike at the throat, groin and knees. Eventually he wears the monstrosity down enough to grapple him and bite out his jugular vein.

(yes, he is meant to be a somewhat animalistic antihero)

I'm just wondering how to realistically attack and defend from someone who is much bigger and stronger than you AND has a longer reach.

Advice?

Locke
12-18-2014, 03:38 AM
I'm not an expert by any means, but this is how I'd imagine it. Start with quick strikes as a wolf might: dart in, get a blow or two in, and fall back out of his reach. Taunt him like you're on a playground. Once bigun gets angry enough to lose focus, then get close and stay there, where he can't get any big swings on you, and grapple. Grappling takes more concentration and focus, so an opponent who's pissed is going to rely more on his strength and not his balance. Knees are good because a sore knee will make him rely more on the opposite foot, so it's easier to figure out which direction to pull him off-balance.

Drachen Jager
12-18-2014, 03:38 AM
Watch good fight movies.

Lots of them.

Watch MMA and if you can get it, Fighting Black Kings (documentary).

Classic way to take on a big opponent is to work on the legs. If you're faster and can kick, keep going with quick sharp blows to the knee. Even if he has reach on you it won't help him much.

Personally, I tend to follow the Rob Roy fight principle (watch the sword fight at the end to see what I mean). Give the hero an impossible task and let him lose. Then have him turn the tables with sheer guts and determination.

I wrote a similar scenario once, though both opponents were armed to begin with. The large man crushed the hero's wooden shield with his club, sending a large shard of wood through the hero's forearm. Later, they're both disarmed and the big man starts to crush the hero in a bear hug. Hero pulls the shard from his arm and jams it in the big guy's eye.

I don't think biting the jugular would be realistic unless your hero is more than human. There are plenty of killing blows, even on a massive opponent that are more realistic.

Also, giving the big guy only one eye makes for a really obvious counter. I'd consider not giving him such an obvious weakness for your hero to exploit.

badwolf.usmc
12-18-2014, 03:55 AM
I second the MMA thing. Real fighters in real fights, no better research material than right there.

Okelly65
12-18-2014, 04:13 AM
shatter his instep, poke out his other eye with a thumb, then crush his throat so he dies of asphyxiation.

Amadan
12-18-2014, 04:34 AM
A lot of these killers moves are only realistic with a phenomenal amount of skill and/or luck.

Biting out the jugular? I'd have a hard time believing that one.

Size, strength, and reach is a huge advantage. And an experienced fighter is going to know how to protect his groin and throat.

Also, big muscular "bulky" guys are fast. Muscles = speed.

So your hero really needs superior technique, and maybe some luck. Staying out of reach, going for the legs, and yes, using his blind side.

Watching MMA fights is a good idea (with the caveat that those aren't "realistic" in the sense of being to-the-death fights, because they still have rules).

Okelly65
12-18-2014, 05:31 AM
A lot of these killers moves are only realistic with a phenomenal amount of skill and/or luck.

Biting out the jugular? I'd have a hard time believing that one.

Size, strength, and reach is a huge advantage. And an experienced fighter is going to know how to protect his groin and throat.

Also, big muscular "bulky" guys are fast. Muscles = speed.

So your hero really needs superior technique, and maybe some luck. Staying out of reach, going for the legs, and yes, using his blind side.

Watching MMA fights is a good idea (with the caveat that those aren't "realistic" in the sense of being to-the-death fights, because they still have rules).


yes size, speed and reach are important, and they can also be a liability. Ive seen large, reasonably fast, long armed men reduced to jello in record time by short slight men and women. (and seen the opposite as well)

if your a right hander, try fighting a lefty. it throws you off for a bit and that little bit of shake up can lose the fight for you if the other guy catches it and uses it to his or her advantage.

the big bulky, muscle equals speed is a myth. one that has resulted in big bulky types being taken down by a short fast, tenacious dynamo who stays in close, removing the reach factor. Ive encountered far more big slow guys, but tough as nails, than I have large and fast ones.

Ive watched five foot nothing guys, take every thing a six foot five monster could unload on them then take the monster down just by being able to take the pounding longer.

the example I gave above works, with the caveat that there are all kinds of factors that come into play that could affect the outcome one way or the other. Experience and speed are only a part of it. Endurance and a high pain threshold can be game changers.

the instep is shattered, instant pain and the balance goes. Usually resulting in a fall. A quick drop and jab, the eye is gone the pain factor triples, concentration is shot. coordinated defense is a thing of the past. A fast elbow or knuckle strike to the throat and its over.

As an instructor once told us, Amateurs are the most dangerous in a fight, they dont know the rules so they don't know not to break them

The hard style martial arts, Krav and even the Military MAC style, teaches fast strikes and crippling moves to take down opponents.

MMA is great to get ideas from, but those guys are not fighting for their lives. If they were those fights would be fast, brutal and over in a minute or so. only the rare fights would turn into a slugging match worthy of a Hollywood action film.

with all that said.. I know a 5th degree black belt, who was tough as all get out and taken down in two seconds by a tire iron to the side of the head. the tire iron was used by a short, overweight balding drunk guy in a parking lot.

truth is no matter how you end up writing it, even if Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee wrote the scene for you, other people with other experiences would loudly proclaim how inaccurate they think it is. write it in your voice after researching it. I would even suggest you go to the Special forces web site and ask one of them if he would read over your scene and make suggestions.

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/index.php

here are some links to check out

http://www.attackproof.com/the-myth-of-grappling-as-self-defense.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGAE99qawps

Drachen Jager
12-18-2014, 06:12 AM
Oh, just thought of good resource for size mismatches, the old fights of Royce Gracie (many are available online). He made a career of taking on guys 1.5x his weight or more.

Trebor1415
12-18-2014, 11:54 AM
I agree that starting the big guy off with one eye is too obvious.

How about the hero *does* something to the guy early in the fight that damages the big guy's eye or restricts the big guy's vision?

This could be something as simple as the hero cutting/clawing the big guy's face just above the eye so that blood keeps getting into the big guy's eye and obscuring his vision. If this happens the big guy is going to have to periodically wipe his eye out or shake his head or something to clear the blood and clear his vision. The hero could use this to his advantage.

If the bad guy starts with only one eye the reader is going to expect the hero to take advantage of it and it's a bit predictable. Plus, the big guy is also going to be aware of his weakness and have adapted to it to make it harder to exploit. But, if his vision is damaged or obscured during the fight he won't know how to handle it as well.

Osulagh
12-18-2014, 12:34 PM
It's probably best to use strategy in a fight like this. Have the hero do something to somehow get the upper hand against this guy before the fight even starts. Anything. Simple stuff like making them wait up all night, poison them, and whatnot. Further, you can use whatever story elements to help get the edge.

Then in the fight, when fighting a larger opponent it's best to debilitate them and/or use their size against them. Judo has some good techniques for this--light contact grappling can be a great way to deal with larger opponents when you're defending. With that, you can also use the environment to an advantage. Think about being thrown on your back on a concrete floor. Ow. Worse, something sharp and long. You can also strike vital areas like crotch, ears, eyes, throat, nose, and the joints to widdle the opponent down.

And of course, unless there's very strong limitations, if you're fighting to the death you should try finding some kind of weapon. Anything to give the edge.

I do recommend looking into MMA. Not so much for the fighting style, but more for seeing how a fight can devolve into just an ugly mess--movies and other media don't show the ugly side to fights.

efreysson
12-19-2014, 01:54 AM
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/index.php

here are some links to check out

http://www.attackproof.com/the-myth-of-grappling-as-self-defense.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGAE99qawps

Thanks.


Oh, just thought of good resource for size mismatches, the old fights of Royce Gracie (many are available online). He made a career of taking on guys 1.5x his weight or more.

Ah, interesting.

On the whole eye business, the guy lost it in a previous story.

Mr Flibble
12-19-2014, 03:18 AM
even if Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee wrote the scene for you,

And ofc there is that old, unprovable legend re the two of those fighting twice

First time, Chuck wins, because Bruce said he "underestimated him". Second fight, Bruce wins despite being substantially smaller.

For a small guy (in a choreographed fight bit still) going up against a bigger one, here. Tony Yaa, Nathan Jone (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf1g23_gGps)s.
Tony is five foot six, Nathan is seven foot according to accounts, though maybe a tad smaller . He's still a damn sight bigger.

IF the opponents are equally good/trained/talented then yes height and weight and reach becomes a thing. If not, their training/how good they are is a (much) bigger factor -- I'm reading Christopher Lee's bio atm and he's six foot four, and got regularly trounced in the boxing ring by guys a lot smaller because they were "marciano types" -- short but dense. His reach meant nothing. And someone using a technique the other guy has never seen can be a game changer.


If the guy is bigger than you (and tbh most guys and gals are bigger than me soo...)
If hit and run is not an option (In a real fight this is always what you aim for -- get them out so you can get out)...

Get them on the floor. Disorient them, then go for the kill -- and I'm with the folks that say biting out a jugular will not seem realistic (ok, maybe if you've set up your guy to be the showy sort?)

Get them to the floor -- a leg sweep, hooking their leg with yours, an overbalancing they weren't expecting

Disorient them -- broken nose will make people see stars often, but if your guy is experienced....then again I read stories of pro wrestlers, who despite it being "fake" really do hurt themselves -- having to stall a match because someone just got their nose bust and can't see straight. Chris Benoit could fight like a mo-fo but when Eddie bust his nose he had to grandstand for a bit to cover for the fact Chris couldn't see for a couple of minutes.

And for disorientation once they are down, ofc you can't beat the groin shot. It will generally make people think about their groin more than defending themselves.


And a good opponent will know all this.

so it'll be give and take a lot -- good dramatic tension. Just don;t ruin it with an unrealistic thing, unless -- and this is he important bit -- you've set it up (Frex Roadhouse ends with a similar unlikely move, but it's been reffed through the film as something the MC regrets...setting up the climax. Maybe worth a watch? Is a good film anyway)

Okelly65
12-19-2014, 03:38 AM
And ofc there is that old, unprovable legend re the two of those fighting twice

First time, Chuck wins, because Bruce said he "underestimated him". Second fight, Bruce wins despite being substantially smaller.

According to Chuck Norris, he only sparred with Bruce Lee, so I guess its an Urban myth. heres an interview with Mr. Norris

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/martial-arts-entertainment/martial-art-movies/chuck-norris-vs-bruce-lee/

Mr Flibble
12-19-2014, 03:48 AM
Yeah almost certainly urban myth tbh. But small guys do sometimes beat big guys

PS the interview kinda skirts the issue, tbh

Drachen Jager
12-19-2014, 03:48 AM
Thanks.



Ah, interesting.

On the whole eye business, the guy lost it in a previous story.

Then flip it into a strength.

Have your hero plan it out how he'll go for the remaining eye, and that's what gives him his only real shot of winning the fight, only to have hulk come out with some from of eye protection that effectively kills that plan.

Don't let your audience guess how the hero will win. Lead them to believe he can't win.