Range of cannon/artillery scattershot

Taejang · Dec 8, 2014

I realize cannons and artillery pieces have varying ranges based on powder quality/amounts and the size/bore used. I'm not getting that technical; just need to know a general maximum effective range for scattershot.

(Not "regular" shells, grapeshot, canister, or shrapnel shell, which I have found information on already.)

Does anybody know?

While we're on the topic, can anyone point me to a battlefield account of scattershot in use?

Drachen Jager · Dec 8, 2014

How is scattershot different from grapeshot?

King Neptune · Dec 8, 2014

What era? Land based or at sea? What size load? Shooting that kind of stuff from cannon is like shooting buckshot in that it doesn't have a lot of energy and it tends to lose energy faster than solid shot. I have read descriptions of that kind of stuff being used at sea to cut rigging, etc. and as anti-personnel, but I don't recall specific distances, except that it was less than a half mile, and usually much less. I think that other authors asked your questions and got no specific answers, so they were indefinite.

See if this site helps.
http://www.napoleonguide.com/artillery_ranges.htm

Taejang · Dec 8, 2014

Drachen Jager said:
How is scattershot different from grapeshot?

One of the problems I'm having researching this is actually that different sources call the same things different names. Scattershot, grapeshot, canister, hollow-ball, shrapnel, and case, to name a few, are used differently by different sources.

I'm using the Wikipedia definitions, which may not be "standard" definitions. Scattershot is just throwing whatever is at hand into the cannon. Grapeshot is actually prepared in advance and more sophisticated.

King Neptune said:
What era? Land based or at sea? What size load? Shooting that kind of stuff from cannon is like shooting buckshot in that it doesn't have a lot of energy and it tends to lose energy faster than solid shot. I have read descriptions of that kind of stuff being used at sea to cut rigging, etc. and as anti-personnel, but I don't recall specific distances, except that it was less than a half mile, and usually much less. I think that other authors asked your questions and got no specific answers, so they were indefinite.

See if this site helps.
http://www.napoleonguide.com/artillery_ranges.htm

Land, anti-personnel. Using magic to fire it, so no specifics on powder or charge. One of the handy things about being an author is I can change the cannon size to match the capabilities I want, so for now I'm ignoring size until I figure out range. I know maneuverability is a factor, too, but range is king for the scene I'm writing.

The info in that link is, unfortunately, typical of what I've seen. I keep seeing 500 yards as the max range for canister, with 200-300 being much more effective. But canister is not scattershot. This is the closest I've seen to numbers on scattershot (the site calls it canister, but the description is much closer to what I'd expect of scattershot). It gives 75 as the max effective range, which is very different than 200-300 optimal canister range.

Drachen Jager · Dec 8, 2014

I'd say it would depend on what they had on hand, but 75 yards seems about right for scrap metal, gravel, or whatever. Some of that is dependent on the cannon velocity, but that kind of scrap has such poor aerodynamics you can't expect it to go far.

One note, it could kill up to a much greater distance, as some of the bits would probably go farther than others, but it wouldn't inflict mass casualties at great range.

Trebor1415 · Dec 9, 2014

With the 75 yard range detail I think you missed the part where that site said they were talking about the practice that predated actual cannister rounds. That practice of loading loose musket balls was a precurser to cannister rounds and wasn't as effective as the later purpose built rounds. that explains the range discrepancy.

What do you need to have work in the story? What range do you need the shot to be effective at? And, please note that "effective" does not mean "100% lethal." You could easily have some characters injured/killed while others are uninjured due to the variances of how the shot flew, especially if just junk stuffed in the bore.

Trebor1415 · Dec 9, 2014

btw the wiki page is pretty good as well

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCanister_shot&ei=OLmGVLbGDY_5yQTkoYGwCA&usg=AFQjCNH47uCMPOE4cgt91EZVdjqOSTpqtg&sig2=cqrd4_J07cvPB-s-GHKL0A&bvm=bv.81449611,d.aWw

here's another good site. Watch the video and read the thread, especially comment 3

http://historum.com/war-military-history/51231-effect-canister-shot.html

Bufty · Dec 9, 2014

If magic is used to fire the weapons concerned I assume the novel is Fantasy in which case you can make up whatever weapons and range you wish or require to suit the story.

King Neptune · Dec 9, 2014

Bufty has it right, but if you want something that has some basis in reality, then say 100 yards, or so. As Drachen pointer out trash would have a much lower range that grapeshot or canister, and 100 yards is a nice round number. If you want a longer range, then use magic.

stumblebum · Dec 9, 2014

maximum effective range for scattershot

=

Point Blank.

Barring that, as close as possible. Especially if we are talking pre-rifling. This was huge. Before that, you got as close to your enemy as possible before firing. Thus the invention of phrases like, "Hold until you see the whites of their eyes," and so on. Also, why age of sail ships went broadsides basically on top of one another; you only got one shot, and you had to make it count. With scattershot, the odds of hitting anything other than dirt is even less. It wasn't unheard of for people to charge you, ram the muzzle in your gut, and squeeze the trigger. Messy.

Taejang · Dec 9, 2014

Trebor1415 said:
And, please note that "effective" does not mean "100% lethal." You could easily have some characters injured/killed while others are uninjured due to the variances of how the shot flew, especially if just junk stuffed in the bore.

Studying the old historical accounts, this is very true. Even at 100 yards, I'm seeing about 3/4 to 1/2 of the balls from canister shot actually striking something in old training practices. As that range increases, more balls miss (and thus, more survivors). But military engagements are won as much on morale as casualties; it doesn't have to be 100% lethal to turn back a charge.

Bufty said:
If magic is used to fire the weapons concerned I assume the novel is Fantasy in which case you can make up whatever weapons and range you wish or require to suit the story.

Magic is used to fire it, but the projectiles are not magical. I'm not going to get into crazy details, but I want some realism here.

Over all, I'm thinking 100 yards is about the best my characters can hope for until they develop a canister delivery system. That distance is rather short for a max "effective" range; it is unlikely they will get more than two shots off in the time it takes the enemy to cross that distance. Assuming, of course, the enemy formation doesn't fall apart from the shock.

Thanks everyone for the links and thoughts! If somebody has more, I'm still listening

Once! · Dec 9, 2014

I think a lot would depend on the degree of scatter and when the scatter happened.

Imagine firing a bundle of loose projectiles from a wide muzzled weapon, say a cannon. The projectiles would start to spread out as soon as they left the muzzle. That would be pretty lethal close to, but its effectiveness would drop off over distance. The spread of the projectiles would dilute it the further away you got from the weapon.

Now imagine using some form of delayed spread for the projectile - say a shell which exploded on impact with the target. The dispersal starts at the point of impact and not the point at which it leaves the weapon.

I've read a lot about cannon fire in the age of fighting sail. Close to, they would often load with grape shot to sweep a deck of men and chain shot to bring down rigging. When they fired cannon balls, the biggest danger often came from the splinters of wood which were caused when the cannonballs hit.

So I think a great deal depends on the nature of your projectile and whether it explodes on impact or not.

Xelebes · Dec 9, 2014

Try 5-100 metres, with preference for shorter range of firing. The short ranges make the manoeuvering more exciting. The farther end of the range are more for hail mary shots and not as effective, as is the case the farther end of all guns' ranges. 5 metres is used because getting closer may be too close for the survivability of both ships.

Range of cannon/artillery scattershot

Taejang

Why not?

Drachen Jager

Professor of applied misanthropy

King Neptune

Taejang

Why not?

Drachen Jager

Professor of applied misanthropy

Trebor1415

practical experience, FTW

Trebor1415

practical experience, FTW

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

King Neptune

stumblebum

nope

Taejang

Why not?

Once!

Still confused by shoelaces

Xelebes

Delerium ex Ennui