PDA

View Full Version : See if you can spot the irony.



William Haskins
03-25-2006, 11:22 PM
A day before organizers planned to rally downtown against U.S. border restrictions, hundreds of students walked out of four high schools in Los Angeles this morning to march for immigrant rights.

The atmosphere was festive as 500 Huntington Park High School students waved Mexican flags, held balloons colored green, white and red, and periodically broke into cheers of "Mexico! Mexico!"

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-032406protest_lat,0,1662563.story?coll=la-home-headlines

scfirenice
03-26-2006, 01:38 AM
I see several ironies in this situation. Everyone marching probably has a vested interest in the bill not passing and ALSO, if mexico is so darn good that you need to march against an American proposal while carrying a foreign flag, maybe you should head back. Now don't e mail me and say I am a bad person, but come on....at least carry American flag to remind us anglos where we are living and what this country stands for.

DamaNegra
03-26-2006, 01:41 AM
I find it funny how most of them are called Jerry Dominguez or Janice Perez or whatever, lol.

And well, no one knows what drove these people out of their country, so you can't exactly blame them for missing their country or still being in love with it.

JoeEkaitis
03-26-2006, 01:44 AM
. . .hundreds of students walked out of four high schools in Los Angeles this morning . . .Oh, "ditch day."

veinglory
03-26-2006, 01:45 AM
I assume you mean 'if Mexico is so great why are you moving to the US?'

It doesn't feel all that ironic to me as a non-resident alien in the US. I like the US, especially the employment opportunities--but I love New Zealand. I am aware of what the US is doing for me, and immigrants and non-resident aliens contribute ot the US (including being cheap skilled and unskilled labor), and what the US will be doing for NZ by sending me back with improved qualifications and a broader experience.

maestrowork
03-26-2006, 01:49 AM
I'm an immigrant and it took me over 20 years to get my family back together, legally, in the US... so this is a hot/emotional issue for me. I don't think those protesters know what they're talking about, and it bugs me to see them "supporting" illegal immigrants... It has nothing to do with "freedom." Laws are still laws, and you can't break them, then accuse Americans for being anti-Mexicans, etc. On the other hand, I, too feel the general anti-immigration sentiment in this country. It is there.

My thoughts:

1. I think immigrants are important to this country. It's our heritage. It's not a good thing when the country becomes anti-immigration.
2. I think immigration laws should be relaxed, especially for skilled workers and family reunions.
3. I don't think illegal immigrants should be given amnesty. Sorry, if I had to go through all the legal channels, pay all the fees, and wait 10 years, I don't believe anyone should be able to sneak in this country illegally, then get pardoned and granted citizenship -- we shouldn't reward that. Also, we would be encouraging smugglers, who may charge up to $100,000 a head. That's just awful.
4. However, I don't think illegal immigrants should be treated as criminals and felons.
5. I think we need better border control. With all the money we spend on homeland security and the military, our border control is pathetic. It's SO easy to cross the border. And illegal immigrants would be our least concern -- what about terrorists?

Danger Jane
03-26-2006, 02:33 AM
Oh, "ditch day."

Just like a school near me where everyone left class to protest their fifth principal's leaving (fifth this year). Apparently he gave them "stability". And a great excuse for leaving class as well as getting on TV.

JoeEkaitis
03-26-2006, 02:44 AM
Just like a school near me where everyone left class to protest their fifth principal's leaving (fifth this year). Apparently he gave them "stability". And a great excuse for leaving class as well as getting on TV.And have you noticed it's ALWAYS on a FRIDAY?

Danger Jane
03-26-2006, 02:51 AM
And have you noticed it's ALWAYS on a FRIDAY?

Oh, of course. I mean we may be young...but no one is better than weaselling out of work.

veinglory
03-26-2006, 02:53 AM
Of course being out of school without permission to support being in the country without permission is the least irionic aspect of the whole thing--quite apt, in fact.

SC Harrison
03-26-2006, 02:58 AM
Spot the irony? How about thousands of Latinos protesting in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, about a (potential) wall being built on our Southern border.

William Haskins
03-26-2006, 03:01 AM
you'll have to excuse me for thinking this is a little more than immigrants looking to block punitive legislation.

veinglory
03-26-2006, 03:05 AM
Well of course they are. Hardly surprising is it?

William Haskins
03-26-2006, 03:06 AM
surprising, no.

i've been following the racist hatemongering of la raza for years.

veinglory
03-26-2006, 03:14 AM
People often rant about 'immigrants' in front of me. They get very embarrassed when I point out I am one--as if they didn't know. Yep, here I am, immigrant in this country just to make money. Legally of course, it's tricky to get work as an illegal university professor, let alone smuggling myself across the entire Pacific Ocean. Somehow 'immigrant' seems to mean 'unless you are white and have a cute accent'.

William Haskins
03-26-2006, 03:18 AM
yes, but to my knowledge, you're not part of a group of new zealanders saying that the continent belongs to you and that, if push comes to shove, you'll have to kill the gringo.

William Haskins
03-26-2006, 03:23 AM
by the way, i don't "rant" about immigrants. i support legal immigration and also support an amnesty program to legalize as many as we can of those who are currently here. but the flow has to stop from mexico.

and i'm not at all on board with any movement that seeks to subjugate my children.

veinglory
03-26-2006, 03:29 AM
I wasn't accusing. I also suspect the proportion of mexican immigrants planning to take over the country is, shall we say, small.

William Haskins
03-26-2006, 03:34 AM
okay, i take it all back then.

SC Harrison
03-26-2006, 03:35 AM
surprising, no.

i've been following the racist hatemongering of la raza for years.

How sweet is this?

NCLR Position
NCLR believes that a state-issued driver’s license should be reliable proof of an individual’s identity and proof of authorization to drive a motor vehicle; it should not be tied to an individual’s immigration status. There are legitimate and sound avenues for individuals to prove identity which would allow state Departments of Motor Vehicles to fulfill their mission of ensuring safe roads without creating new licensing requirements that would make the driver’s license a de facto proof of legal residency in the United States.

http://www.nclr.org/

(finger snap) I've got it! Hire illegal aliens to work in the DMVs, so they can secretly view the real documents to determine if the applicant really isn't who he says he is. They could also be given easy access to a list of dead people's Social Security numbers, to ensure the same numbers aren't used more than once.

veinglory
03-26-2006, 03:41 AM
I did find it curious that I had to hand over my SSN, passport, visa and several forms of id to get a learners permit--it made me wonder what they thought I was going to do with a car. Now I guess I get it. i had not idea the license was used as an ID.

William Haskins
03-26-2006, 03:43 AM
try these on for size:

"We’re a new Mestizo nation. And they want us to discuss civil rights. Civil rights. What law made by white men to oppress all of us of color, female and male. This is our homeland. We cannot—we will not—and we must not be made illegal in our own homeland. We are not immigrants that came from another country to another country. We are migrants, free to travel the length and breadth of the Americas because we belong here. We are millions. We just have to survive. We have an aging white America. They are not making babies. They are dying. It’s a matter of time. The explosion is in our population.”

“We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him.”

are these quotes from some back-alley revolutionary in a "small" group? nope, he's a professor for the university of texas (i get to help pay his salary).

brokenfingers
03-26-2006, 04:13 AM
These rallies etc only confirm my belief that the masses are easily led and swayed by emotion and hyperbole.


They also remind me of the protests overseas about the Dutch political cartoon and the anti-American protests in various nations etc. etc. as well as the spreading of urban legends as gospel.

People with agendas can always find a way to rouse the disenchanted, the ignorant and the unwary to serve their purpose - it's a constant refrain in the song of history.

September skies
03-26-2006, 04:29 AM
I'm frequently referred to as a traitor - by strangers.
I can not stand these protests - if they love Mexico so much and are so willing to wave the flags and chant in Spanish - I have three words for them:

MOVE TO MEXICO

I'm sorry - I know I'm of Mexican descent (to American parents/both of my parents born here) - but I'm 100-percent American. I was asked once if I could, if I would get dual citizenship and when I said no, they looked at me as if I had committed a horrible sin -
I'm American. The only flag I will wave is the Red-White-and-Blue. I love John Phillip Souza marches - Stars and Stripes Forever - and I will forever be loyal to my country.

Everyone else can go away as far as I'm concerned -- I mean, if all they want to do is burn our flag and complain about how horrible the President is and how horrible America is --- then go home!!!

auuughhh!! I need to calm down. These threads are not good for my blood pressure......

September skies
03-26-2006, 04:32 AM
The sooner that wall is built - the better. There! I said it.
(Then if they want to come over, they can - but legally)

I am so Da## tired of all these illegals coming over and getting free medical help. I need medical care desperately (I'd like to get a cardiac checkup) but can't afford it. I feel like changing my name to Maria and going to some clinic and saying I'm here illegally. But with my luck, they'll somehow get me and kick me to the other side. LOL

William Haskins
03-26-2006, 04:40 AM
my modest proposal for immigration law. would be interested in hearing your thoughts on it.

In the United States of America every individual will enjoy the guarantees granted in the Constitution and these cannot be restricted or suspended, except in those cases and under the conditions established below.

When you enter the country as a "tourist", you are allowed to remain for a maximum of 180 days for the purposes of recreation, health, artistic or sports activities. You may not work in the United States.

If you arrive by air:
You must have your immigration form and present it to the immigration authorities upon arrival at the airport of your destination within the US.

If you arrive by road:
You must request your immigration form after having paid the tourist fees at a local bank. Your vehicle must leave the country when your tourist card expires. You cannot sell your car within the US nor use it for any other unauthorized purpose.

If you arrive by sea:
You must obtain your immigration permit after having paid the fees at the port of entrance.

Once your authorized 180 days are up, you must leave the country.

If you wish to re-enter the country:
You can do so with a new immigration form granted by the immigration authorities at the place of entry after having paid the corresponding fee.

You may extend your stay in the US as a:
Person of independent means: Defined as one who lives off of income generated outside of the US.

Financially dependent person:
Defined as one who is economically dependent on a spouse or blood relative.

In a position of trust:
Defined as a person who assumes a sole managerial role or some other position of absolute trust in established US companies or institutions.

Student:
Defined as a person who begins, finishes or perfects his studies in the US. Once the student terminates his/her studies, he/she must leave the country.

Religious minister or associate:
Defined as an active minister of any religion or a person who performs social or philanthropic acts. In this case, you must register with the government.

so, what do you think?

dahmnait
03-26-2006, 04:46 AM
The sooner that wall is built - the better. There! I said it.
(Then if they want to come over, they can - but legally)
I'll pipe in too. Something needs to be done, and if it takes a wall, then so be it. That said, I suppose I should state (before someone yells at my white a**) that I am all for immigration, as long as it is done legally. We are a country founded on immigrants and I am proud of that heritage. What is happening now with the illegal immigrants is entirely different.

I don't think I will comment much more on this subject right now, it is a touchy one for me. I keep deleting everything I write. I know I will cross a line with someone if I don't take a few to compose my thoughts.

William Haskins
03-26-2006, 04:54 AM
yeah, but what do you think of my proposal?

scfirenice
03-26-2006, 05:02 AM
I like your proposal, William, however once the bleeding hearts get ahold of it there will be a provision such as:

"If you cannot afford the immigration fees, please move to the second window where you can fill out a few forms and the good hardworking citizens of this country will thereby pay said fees for you. Enjoy your stay."

I rather like Australia's immigration policy. Their's is also a country built on immigrants, in fact it was once a penal colony. All Aussies chime in here, but from what I understand it is hard as He!! to get in there and stay for any length of time. I guess it helps to be surrounded by water though.

Something definitly needs to be done. I don't have a problem with legal immigration, but I do have a problem with illegals who work for under the table funds and do not pay into the system they use liberally. I work in Labor and Delivery and occasionally the ER and the hospital eats alot of bills illegals simply don;t have to pay. That comes out of my hard earned salary, not to mention the burden on Social Security.

September skies
03-26-2006, 05:02 AM
I like it.

to be honest, it sounds like what you see when you enter another country. i remember going to mexico once (you have to stop and register once you get past 30 miles from the border or something like that) and they gave us this big list of things not to do - no selling your vehicle, must leave the country as soon as visa (or whatever little paper they gave us) expired. not allowed to buy any property, blah blah blah.

Your proposal for immigration law is right on the button.
Have you considered running for office?

scfirenice
03-26-2006, 05:04 AM
Haskins for President 2008.

William Haskins
03-26-2006, 05:17 AM
aw, i can't take credit for it. it's mexico's immigration policy.

now that's irony.

http://www.todossantos.cc/meximmig.html

September skies
03-26-2006, 05:23 AM
aw, i can't take credit for it. it's mexico's immigration policy.

now that's irony.

http://www.todossantos.cc/meximmig.html

I KNEW it sounded familiar!!
That is so ironic. I love it. I wish I could write a letter to the editor and quote those things - but since I write for them, I can't. BUT - I think I'll write an editorial on this and see if my editor will print it. (something tells me he won't)

ETA: to be honest, I may be a bit of a coward. Mexicans love me in my hometown - they will hate me.

maestrowork
03-26-2006, 06:18 AM
I'm sorry - I know I'm of Mexican descent (to American parents/both of my parents born here) - but I'm 100-percent American. I was asked once if I could, if I would get dual citizenship and when I said no, they looked at me as if I had committed a horrible sin -
I'm American.


Well said.

I am an immigrant and I don't believe in what they're saying.

And it's SO easy for these people to cry "racism." That we ALL "belong here"? What part of "country" and "citizenship" do they not understand? Do they really believe that they could just walk across the border and claim citizenship? What's next? Anybody who can get to any country can become legal citizens? Well, I am booking my flight to Russia right now.

reph
03-26-2006, 06:18 AM
aw, i can't take credit for it. it's mexico's immigration policy.
So Mexico recognizes biological children, but not adopted or foster children, as dependents, and here I was, blaming you for the flaw in the "proposal."

maestrowork
03-26-2006, 06:32 AM
When you enter the country as a "tourist", you are allowed to remain for a maximum of 180 days for the purposes of recreation, health, artistic or sports activities. You may not work in the United States.


Done. Tourist visas are only good for a limited time, from three months to a year, I believe.


If you arrive by air:
You must have your immigration form and present it to the immigration authorities upon arrival at the airport of your destination within the US.

Done.


If you arrive by road:
You must request your immigration form after having paid the tourist fees at a local bank. Your vehicle must leave the country when your tourist card expires. You cannot sell your car within the US nor use it for any other unauthorized purpose.

I don't know about "tourist fees" but you do have to prove certain financial status before you can get a tourist visa. And you have to leave when your visa expires (no extension). However, the problem is law enforcement. Once they enter the country, it's very difficult to track them down. That was why my brother could never get a visa because they wouldn't trust him for not disappearing because he didn't have a "family" in Asia to "return to."


If you arrive by sea:
You must obtain your immigration permit after having paid the fees at the port of entrance.

Once your authorized 180 days are up, you must leave the country.

Same as above.

If you wish to re-enter the country:
You can do so with a new immigration form granted by the immigration authorities at the place of entry after having paid the corresponding fee.

You may extend your stay in the US as a:
Person of independent means: Defined as one who lives off of income generated outside of the US.

Done and done.


Financially dependent person:
Defined as one who is economically dependent on a spouse or blood relative.

In a position of trust:
Defined as a person who assumes a sole managerial role or some other position of absolute trust in established US companies or institutions.


Done and done.


Student:
Defined as a person who begins, finishes or perfects his studies in the US. Once the student terminates his/her studies, he/she must leave the country.

Done.


Religious minister or associate:
Defined as an active minister of any religion or a person who performs social or philanthropic acts. In this case, you must register with the government.


So what William is saying is that we're already doing what we should be doing. Agreed. The problem is the execution and enforcement of these laws.

1) number of visas have decreased over the years, and the conditions of getting such visas has become stricter and stricter

2) number of immigrants allowed into the country has decreased and the conditions of getting immigrant visas have become stricter and stricter

3) fees have increased dramatically as well as the financial requirements.

But these increasing difficulties only deter legal immigrants, and they make it more and more critical for people to enter the country illegally because it's become so difficult to obtain legal status. And without an effective border control, we will see more people flow through the border illegally, and then once they're here, it's almost impossible to track them. Are we going to give these people anmesty as well? It's a tough question.

William Haskins
03-26-2006, 06:47 AM
And it's SO easy for these people to cry "racism." That we ALL "belong here"? What part of "country" and "citizenship" do they not understand? Do they really believe that they could just walk across the border and claim citizenship?

dude, you're saying this as if it's an absurd notion. this is what's being preached in mexico, in activist immigrant communities in america, and in american universities.

the racism charges leveled at americans often require tortured logic and extrapolations (and misrepresentations) of quotes taken out of context.

you want to see (and hear) some real racism?

http://ccir.net/AUDIO/TakeoverOfAmericaCD/Menu.html

dahmnait
03-26-2006, 07:08 AM
yeah, but what do you think of my proposal?
We posted at the same time. heh...now I am sneaking a moment away from the kids. I like your proposal and the irony that it is Mexico's immigration laws. Now, what to do about the illegal immigrants?

I am going to have to read this thread thoroughly after the kids are in bed.

maestrowork
03-26-2006, 07:12 AM
Now, what to do about the illegal immigrants?


Tough call. I suppose we could give them a chance to become legal and others can cry "unfair" all they want. Or we could deport them but allow them to apply for legal status through the proper channels. But criminalizing them is not the answer. What are we going to do? Send them all to jail? Who is going to pay for that?

William Haskins
03-26-2006, 07:17 AM
the only pragmatic solution is to grant amnesty for any non-felon illegal.

but then the borders have to be protected against any new influx of illegals.

brokenfingers
03-26-2006, 07:17 AM
And don't forget that there are also many, many businesses in the US that depend on illegal immigrants to thrive and even survive.

Unfortunately for them, they're not the kind of businesses that can outsource to third world low-wage countries.

September skies
03-26-2006, 07:50 AM
And don't forget that there are also many, many businesses in the US that depend on illegal immigrants to thrive and even survive.

I guess I see a lot of that in my area. Being mainly agricultural out here, "we" depend on these illegals to pick all our fruit. (so, they say)
But this season was horrible. Apparently all the illegals are in New Orleans - lots of roofs to repair out there. All the others are now in construction.

Heck, they're not stupid. Why should they work in the fields making minimum wage when they can go into construction and get paid under the table at $13 to $16 an hour! I say shame on those who hire them!

And then we wonder why the unemployment rate is so high! Pfff!

clintl
03-26-2006, 08:00 AM
I say shame on those who hire them!


Yes. You will never make much of a dent in illegal immigration if you don't increase the penalties and enforcement against the businesses hiring them.

SC Harrison
03-26-2006, 08:34 AM
And don't forget that there are also many, many businesses in the US that depend on illegal immigrants to thrive and even survive.



So...instead of paying Welfare and unemployment to (some) people so they can sit at home on their fat a$$es, eat Cheetos and watch Jerry Springer, we have them earn their money by working in the fields. A society that is too "refined" to do its own dirty work is destined to share the fate of the Roman Empire.

maestrowork
03-26-2006, 08:45 AM
Hey, if we're going to fall, I want my gladiators!

Mac H.
03-26-2006, 10:05 AM
I rather like Australia's immigration policy. Their's is also a country built on immigrants, in fact it was once a penal colony. All Aussies chime in here, but from what I understand it is hard as He!! to get in there and stay for any length of time. I guess it helps to be surrounded by water though.Err - don't know about that. Over half of the Commonwealth Games team for Sierra Leone disappeared - some didn't even bother to turn up for their events! That's not a great surprise - for the Manchester Commonwealth games 4 years ago, 21 out of 30 athletes disappeared.

Ref: http://www.theage.com.au/news/commonwealth-games/sierra-leone-team-leaves-12-behind/2006/03/25/1143084057576.htm

I find it amusing hypocritical that Anglo-Saxons complain that foreigners arrive here in Australia illegally, when that's exactly what they did to the local Aboriginals.

The problems we have are mainly in terms of Asylum Seekers - and we certainly are taking on a lot less than 'fair share' if you compare our population with the number of Asylum seekers world-wide. (Yes, I appreciate it isn't as simple as that. )

Mac.
(PS: I did find the laws in the US rather odd. I was somehow allowed to drive a car in the USA simply due to having a driver's license in Australia. No booklet on what the road rules were - they didn't even bother pointing out that people in the USA drives on the wrong side of the road. I'm qualified to drive - despite that fact that I have no idea on what the road rules are !?

And yes, the rules were different enough to make me dangerous - or at least a nuisance to other drivers!)

Shadow_Ferret
03-26-2006, 10:15 AM
"Without immigrants, this country wouldn't be anything," said Anna Benitez, 15, a ninth-grade student who moved to Los Angeles at age 5 with her mother from Mexico. "We're people. We're human beings. We're not criminals. We're in this country to work."
I find two ironies in this statement. One is that you have to be 16 to work in this country. The other is the slap in the face to all Native Americans. Damn good thing we immigrants came over here and wiped out the native population, because by gum, they would never have made anything of this country.

September skies
03-30-2006, 07:58 AM
These protest marches out here have gotten out of control. Kids have been ditching school and protesting. It's really stupid.

Personally, I think it has more to do with the excitement of being in the middle of the action and skipping school. Some of them didn't even know why they were doing it - "I don't know" or "Because we are all human." (duh! no one ever said they were animals) Though, too bad. Because animals wouldn't be so stupid.

The school district, as of yesterday, has lost $123,000
Since kids are not in school - they lose State money over that.
And, they had to hire extra personnel and pay overtime to all the administrative people to try to keep it all under control (not working)

Yesterday, so many kids cut class and went to City Hall (in Fresno) that they had to send busses to retrieve all the kids. I say, let them find their own way home. They got there, let them figure out how to come back to the school. If they don't, tough. Maybe tomorrow they won't do it again.

Right now, my two girls (not involved in any of that) were getting a little worried. They say there is this HUGE walkout thing planned for Friday. And "everyone" that is Latino will be gone. (my girls don't consider themselves Mexican - they consider themselves Native American)

Anyway - all these kids with Mexican Flags - waving and screaming -- if they want Mexico so bad - I'll say it again .... GO TO MEXICO!!

DamaNegra
03-30-2006, 08:07 AM
Anyway - all these kids with Mexican Flags - waving and screaming -- if they want Mexico so bad - I'll say it again .... GO TO MEXICO!!

You know, I agree with everything you said on your post, EXCEPT this part. You don't know what circumstances drove them out of Mexico. I bet most of them wish it would be that easy to return. I bet most of them still wish they could've found the opportunity they wanted so much in their country.

If people with master and doctor's degrees can't get jobs nowadays, what hope is there for people who barely had money to finish elementary?

I agree that illegal immigrants should try and enter the country in a legal way. Myself, I'd never cross illegaly. However, I live in Mexico, and I see the conditions they live in every day. The conditions of most of them are so extreme I can see that they don't have the time to wait for the legal paperwork to be done. I'm not saying it's right, I'm only saying I undertand where it comes from.

If the movie 'Un Mundo Maravilloso' (A Wonderful World?) is being displayed in the US (it's a mexican film) then by any accounts you should watch it. It gives a good insight on Mexican povety.

September skies
03-30-2006, 09:13 AM
You know, I agree with everything you said on your post, EXCEPT this part. You don't know what circumstances drove them out of Mexico. I bet most of them wish it would be that easy to return. I bet most of them still wish they could've found the opportunity they wanted so much in their country.
I have no doubt about that. BUT, I would be more sympathetic to the protesting people if they carried the American flag - and chanted out about how wonderful our country is.
No one is saying they are not human. All we are saying is that we have to protect our country.
I do sympathize with them not having anything or so little - but I'm sorry, your President over there needs to do something about it. The problem is -- Mexico is so corrupt.
I used to vacation there, but after all the kidnappings (one every 8 seconds) I'm never going there again.
My sister drove from Mexico City to South America recently with a white friend of hers. The police pulled them over and demanded all their cash.
How can anyone feel safe like that?
Maybe that is the true reason they all try to come over here.
But if they do....please....at least respect our country. If you can't come in legally,
at least fake it! Gosh! Pretend you love it here and that is why you want to stay.
Don't try to make us Mexico.
And, sorry DamaNegra - I'm not talking to you. I'm talking as if I'm talking to all those crossing illegally.

Carole
03-30-2006, 03:27 PM
I rather like Australia's immigration policy. Their's is also a country built on immigrants, in fact it was once a penal colony. All Aussies chime in here, but from what I understand it is hard as He!! to get in there and stay for any length of time. I guess it helps to be surrounded by water though.



Pardon me if I missed something important after this post, but I didn't read further. I agree with you, SC. Hubby wanted to stay in Australia. He loved it there. He even got a job in a little music store and found a place to live.

He couldn't stay, though. What a novel idea.