I'm not sure if this is the right for this, but I did get rejected so... Just wondering what other author's experiences have been regarding how many requests for partials they usually get before one of those agents picks them up. The reason I'm asking is because I just got rejected by one of the four agents who have asked for my partial so far, and being an insecure idiot I'm getting scared... is it time to start sending out more queries to other agents or what?
How many partials for an acceptance?
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There is no magic number. Could be one, could be infinity cubed, multiplied by Avogadro's Number. My experience lies toward the latter end of that scale.
caw.
caw.
number
If the agent really likes what you write, you won't receive any rejections. If no agent likes it, you'll receive an infinite number. If some agents like it, there's no telling how many rejections you'll receive. Nine out of ten never get a yes from an agent, and of those that do, nine out of ten are still rejected after the entire novel has been read. So it's always wise to be ready with more agents, and even wiser to have a second novel written and polished before you run out of places to send the first one.
If the agent really likes what you write, you won't receive any rejections. If no agent likes it, you'll receive an infinite number. If some agents like it, there's no telling how many rejections you'll receive. Nine out of ten never get a yes from an agent, and of those that do, nine out of ten are still rejected after the entire novel has been read. So it's always wise to be ready with more agents, and even wiser to have a second novel written and polished before you run out of places to send the first one.
Just wondering why you would necessarily think, after writing one unpublishable novel, a second one would be any better? Wouldn't it be just as likely that you'd be perpetuating the same mistakes you made in the first?
Not always. The more you write, the more you learn. And sometimes what seems like a great idea and story line, ends up being the dregs, no matter how many rewrites it goes through.
second
That would mean no one ever learns by doing. It would also mean a greta many of our best novelists wouldn't be around. It's like saying if you paint one bad painting, you may as well give up because you'll make the same mistakes in the next. We'd still be living in caves if the human mind worked this way.
If the second novel isn't better than the first, you have some sort of serious problem. You are not normal.
Som no, of course it's not just as likely that a second novel will be as bad as the first. Not, at least, if you're a person actually capable of learning anything.
For normal, everyday people, learning more with each ffort is teh norm, which is precisely why many of our best writers write three or four or five novels before getting one right.
It isn't a matter of making the same mistakes, it's a matter of doing the same thing better and better and better until it's good enough to sell. It's like anything else. Practice makes perfect. . .at least to whatever natural limits of talent, skill, and intelligence an individual writers has.
popmuze said:
That would mean no one ever learns by doing. It would also mean a greta many of our best novelists wouldn't be around. It's like saying if you paint one bad painting, you may as well give up because you'll make the same mistakes in the next. We'd still be living in caves if the human mind worked this way.
If the second novel isn't better than the first, you have some sort of serious problem. You are not normal.
Som no, of course it's not just as likely that a second novel will be as bad as the first. Not, at least, if you're a person actually capable of learning anything.
For normal, everyday people, learning more with each ffort is teh norm, which is precisely why many of our best writers write three or four or five novels before getting one right.
It isn't a matter of making the same mistakes, it's a matter of doing the same thing better and better and better until it's good enough to sell. It's like anything else. Practice makes perfect. . .at least to whatever natural limits of talent, skill, and intelligence an individual writers has.
I would say, in the case of a lot of published writers, many second novels are nowhere near as good as the first. Sometimes a writer is lucky to have one good novel in him/her at all.
Without the ability to get and absorb criticism, I think a writer is bound to keep making the same mistakes, published or not.
Without the ability to get and absorb criticism, I think a writer is bound to keep making the same mistakes, published or not.
glutton said:
It’s like this--assuming you’re sending out three chapters with your query: 2-20% will ask for the ms, and 2-20% of those will like it.
So your worst odds are: 1/50 * 1/50 = 1/2500
And the best are: 1/5 * 1/5 = 1/25
So the total queries you need are between 25 and 2500.
And most probably fall at the geometric mean--250
I'm having a lot of luck with my recent query letter. Almost every agent asks to see something. Most of them ask for the whole manuscript.
However, at going rate at Kinko's, which is around $30 a pop, I may go broke before I get signed.
However, at going rate at Kinko's, which is around $30 a pop, I may go broke before I get signed.
popmuze said:
Maybe, but discounting the sophomore jinx, I just haven't seen a bit of evidence that it ever works this way. And I still say it has almost nothing to do with mistakes. Mistakes are seldom teh problem when a writer fails. Lack of skill is. Skill is something that gets better with practice.
And luck has nothing to do with it. A writer with one good book in hism has a thousand. What he may lack is the desire and dedication to get out anything more than one. But good writing is never accidental. It always, without exception, involves talent and skill, and neither diminishes with continued effort.
Most writers write unpublishable first novels, and it is NOT getting and absorbing criticism that lets them write a better second novel. That's a notion invented by the internet. To heck with criticism. Criticism is most useful to those who lack the talent and the skill, and I'm eternally happy that many of teh great writers of the past did not have the internet.
Query
There are no odds. Write a good query and/or the right novel and your odds are 100%. Write a lousy query and a lousy book and you may still get some bites, but that's all you'll get.
There never has been, and never will be, an agent or an editor who looked at a query and/or manuscript and thought, "This will sell," and who then said no.
If you're gettiing a really low response rate, it isn't because of odds, it's because you haven't written a good enough query and/or novel.
There are no odds. Write a good query and/or the right novel and your odds are 100%. Write a lousy query and a lousy book and you may still get some bites, but that's all you'll get.
There never has been, and never will be, an agent or an editor who looked at a query and/or manuscript and thought, "This will sell," and who then said no.
If you're gettiing a really low response rate, it isn't because of odds, it's because you haven't written a good enough query and/or novel.
Jamesaritchie said:
What on earth? You really mean that every agent is going to want to represent you? Not bloody likely.
popmuze said:
Just a thought: More and more agents are accepting email queries. Saves quite a bit of money and time. Check www.agentquery.com then cross-reference with their web sites.
Jamesaritchie said:
Sorry, I just can't let this pass. It completely ignores the subjective factor on the part of agents/editors, which is HUGE. There is no such thing as the "right novel" in advance of some agent/editor judging it as "the right novel". The right novel for Donald Maass may not be the right novel for Meredith Bernstein (quite probably isn't, in fact).
Putting aside the "lousy novel", which likely won't sell to anybody, and assuming you've written an engaging story and done so with competent craft, once it's dispatched out to the market galaxy, "right" and "wrong" are very fuzzy issues, and no agent or editor gets the choice "right" anywhere near all the time. And they'll all admit that, too.
And you can do all the research possible, and still not know with anything close to certainty that your book is going to be accepted by the first person you send it to, or the second, or the third . . . Finding that "right" person does get to be a matter of luck, often dumb luck. And sometimes it's even a matter of finding that potentially "right" person at precisely the "right" time, when there's an opening on the worklist, when the agent's not simply too busy, etc.
The idea that there's some magical objective formula of "right" and "wrong", "good" and "bad" as implied by your comments, James, is misleading and misguided. You sold your first novel the first place you sent it. Does that mean you knew you had it "right"? If you can say that, you win the AW Smugness Trophy for the decade. You got lucky. You wrote a good enough novel, a good enough query, and did the best research you could, which no doubt increased your odds in an effective way. Then you sent it out, and got lucky. Many many many many many many writers do exactly what you did, and don't get so lucky.
As Walter Cronkite used to say, "And that's the way it is . . ."
caw.
blacbird said:
I agree. I simply do not believe that all good manuscripts are of interest to all agents, and anything that has been rejected once is bad. If so, there would be no published novels that had been rejected, and there are. Some of my favorites, in fact.
I've had two agents so far. The first one was one of the first batch I contacted from a list I made from the Writers Digest agent book, and the second was a friend who had his own publishing house for a while and then turned to agenting. The first one has decided he doesn't want to represent me any more, and I'd rather have the second one's friendship than work with him.
So, at a recent writing conference, I booked 15 min. with each of three agents. One of them looked at the samples I had with me and talked to me briefly about my subjects, and decided then and there she couldn't help me. Another wanted to see my children's book, and a couple of months later returned it saying that she didn't "feel enthusiastic enough about my ability to market your manuscript successfully to offer to represent it." The third was eager to see everything, but when I checked the Editors and Preditors page, I was inspired to ask him a few questions first, and based on his replies, decided not to send him any of my stuff.
But the last night of the conference when I was enjoying a drink in the bar, I fell into conversation with a woman who turned out to be an agent, and she's looked at one of my book proposals and is mailing a contract this week. She also says she's "marked up" my proposal so I can revise it again.
I think what's important is that you believe in your work, and that you believe in yourself as a writer -- a professional who can not only take but use criticism for the benefit of the work itself. Consider everything people say about it, accept what you know is right, experiment with what you're not sure of, and let go of what's ignorant, mean or unconstructive. (It can take some "inner work" to create that relationship with criticism of your work, but it's worth the effort.) With that attitude, if you pursue every opportunity to meet the right agent, you will. Use the time it takes to polish your ms. and your query letter. Don't give up!
Blessings,
Ashleen
So, at a recent writing conference, I booked 15 min. with each of three agents. One of them looked at the samples I had with me and talked to me briefly about my subjects, and decided then and there she couldn't help me. Another wanted to see my children's book, and a couple of months later returned it saying that she didn't "feel enthusiastic enough about my ability to market your manuscript successfully to offer to represent it." The third was eager to see everything, but when I checked the Editors and Preditors page, I was inspired to ask him a few questions first, and based on his replies, decided not to send him any of my stuff.
But the last night of the conference when I was enjoying a drink in the bar, I fell into conversation with a woman who turned out to be an agent, and she's looked at one of my book proposals and is mailing a contract this week. She also says she's "marked up" my proposal so I can revise it again.
I think what's important is that you believe in your work, and that you believe in yourself as a writer -- a professional who can not only take but use criticism for the benefit of the work itself. Consider everything people say about it, accept what you know is right, experiment with what you're not sure of, and let go of what's ignorant, mean or unconstructive. (It can take some "inner work" to create that relationship with criticism of your work, but it's worth the effort.) With that attitude, if you pursue every opportunity to meet the right agent, you will. Use the time it takes to polish your ms. and your query letter. Don't give up!
Blessings,
Ashleen
Ashleen said:
“Alcohol,” Jerry Seinfeld said when asked how people got together when 90% of the population was un-datable.
Let's examine the extremes of this friggin business. I sent over 75 queries, 12 partials, and 7 fulls for my first SF book, and it took over a year for me to cool heels and realize that nobody wanted the doggone thing. That included mostly agents and about 12 publishers. I did rework that query six times with the help of the wonderful AWers here. The only comment I got was from the Psaltis agency, who gave me some standard advice, but he did note that the writing and everything else was just peachy. Still I was devasted. I've published books, short stories, radio plays, poems, (with the majors), and hundreds of profiles and articles for newspapers. I thought I knew the business.
My next SF book was sent out via email query and the third agent asked for the full hardcopy. Not a synopsis, not a partial--a full hard copy from just the query. Six days later I had a contract in the mail.
Six days V.S. 365 days. Who would have known!
It just so happens that I hit a new agent who was building his stable, and did not have a science fiction writer yet.
What do I make of this? My gut instinct told me it was impeccable timing and luck. I have no other way to explain this diversity. Was the book good? Sure it was, but so was the other one! Just when I think I know the business, something slaps me upside the head and says, "you know nothing, young feller, me lad."
As a caveat: From all this paper-pushing, my gut instinct has also raised some alarm bells: from just my experience, I sincerely believe that email fulls are not read entirely. It's just too damn easy to delete that screen and send out a form rejection. I sure would like to know how many people have recieved contracts from agents or publishers via full email reads. And I'm not talking about epubs or PODs.
Just my battle scars,
Tri
My next SF book was sent out via email query and the third agent asked for the full hardcopy. Not a synopsis, not a partial--a full hard copy from just the query. Six days later I had a contract in the mail.
Six days V.S. 365 days. Who would have known!
It just so happens that I hit a new agent who was building his stable, and did not have a science fiction writer yet.
What do I make of this? My gut instinct told me it was impeccable timing and luck. I have no other way to explain this diversity. Was the book good? Sure it was, but so was the other one! Just when I think I know the business, something slaps me upside the head and says, "you know nothing, young feller, me lad."
As a caveat: From all this paper-pushing, my gut instinct has also raised some alarm bells: from just my experience, I sincerely believe that email fulls are not read entirely. It's just too damn easy to delete that screen and send out a form rejection. I sure would like to know how many people have recieved contracts from agents or publishers via full email reads. And I'm not talking about epubs or PODs.
Just my battle scars,
Tri
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