Anyone here an MFA dropout?

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raintree

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Hi, everyone. I've been registered for AW for a while now, but haven't been back here in some time. (Ahem--a couple of years).

I am wondering: Is there anyone here who was in an MFA program, and left? I would love to hear about your experience.

I am in my first semester of a low-residency MFA program, and am giving serious consideration to dropping out. The program is not the problem, and I am doing well, according to my instructors. It's my motivation that is the issue. Without sounding like a lazy sack of sh*t, I had no idea it would be this much work. I also suffer from anxiety and depression, and just about every assignment causes me a lot of anxiety. I'm on an emotional roller coaster.

Of course, I am familiar with the whole "MFA or not" argument, so that's not part of my conundrum. It's more like "MFA or not--for me."

Thoughts?

Thank you for listening!

Edit: For some reason, tales on the Internet of MFA dropouts are quite rare.
 
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Debeucci

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I guess the first question is, what is your goal? What do you want to do with your career? If it's to become a novelist, then uh...
 

Ken

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Not really, but --

After getting meh BA I took one creative writing masters class. Had no intention of pursuing a degree. Just wanted to take a course to help me improve. Pretty cool class, but a lot of moolah. If the price had been more reasonable I might've taken another.

Then too there were two fellow students who complained about the subject matter of one of my stories. The professor told me to tone it down from then on. No biggie. Ironically, another student complimented the production. Even so my enthusiasm sorta dwindled after that.
 

raintree

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I know now that my goals weren't very clear when I applied. I have worked as a professional writer (journalism, PR) in the past, but my current job doesn't involve writing. It's very low-pressure, which is better for my health. So I wasn't planning to use the degree for any professional or career reasons. (For the record, I am in my early 50s).

I mostly was taking advantage of the tuition remission (I work at the school I'm attending). And my job has a lot of downtime, so I thought I should be doing something more worthwhile with my time than playing Candy Crush. Occasionally, I'd work on a short story, but I've never been a Serious Writer. It's always been a hobby.

In residency, they more or less told us this is not a Hobby. This is Life.
 

Ken

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Will they still pay even if you don't pursue a particular degree? If so why not just take classes that interest you. Not necessarily writing ones. Science, computers, history, etc. And also take them when you are up to it. No pressure. Something to consider. That's probably what I'd do. Then again mathematics is very enticing. With writing practice is the main thing. Many things you have to learn on your own. G'luck.
 

raintree

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Will they still pay even if you don't pursue a particular degree? If so why not just take classes that interest you. Not necessarily writing ones. Science, computers, history, etc. And also take them when you are up to it. No pressure. Something to consider. That's probably what I'd do. Then again mathematics is very enticing. With writing practice is the main thing. Many things you have to learn on your own. G'luck.

Oh, yes, my job is not even remotely dependent upon having even a bachelor's degree (which I do have). I don't take classes in other subjects because of my weird working hours. But that is another story entirely. You do have a good point: No pressure.

Also, while I graduated summa with my BA in English, I am a very nervous and anxious student.
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CrastersBabies

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First, I have an MFA, but I went through several moments of doubt. Did I belong in the program? What had I gotten myself into? Then "imposter" fears that I had no business in that sort of program because I couldn't possibly be a REAL writer.

I guess some folks find ways to get through. (Medical issues or personal/family crises, etc.) And when I say "find ways," I mean, they find methods to dig themselves out of holes, to avoid burnout, etc. I pretty much go through burnout every semester. Am a Ph.D. student now. It doesn't stop. I get anxiety as well, but I've also gained some pretty tangible tools in dealing with that anxiety. If I hadn't--I honestly wouldn't have made it.

Also consider that this IS the first semester. A question: how much work is it? Can you give examples of what's expected on a weekly basis?

If this were me, I would probably talk to the instructors for next semester and ask about workload and expectations. Then, consider what "anxiety" means to you. For me, it can be crippling at times and at other times, it's motivating. If this is going to really damage your mental health, then consider that above all.

Also, do you have to be full time to receive compensation? Could you drop to one class per semester?
 

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I have an MFA from a low-residency program, and I did love it, but it was a lot of work. I remember some people deferring for a semester or two because of personal and life issues. Maybe a little time off would help you get a head start on writing material for the workshops, and you could re-enter a semester or two down the road with a clearer head and less pressure around the deadlines.

Even if you don't plan on teaching, an MFA can be valuable for a lot of reasons, but you certainly don't need one to be a great writer. It can, however, sharply reduce the learning curve, deepen your writing and reading perspective, and also give you a great community of fellow writer friends IRL. I suppose you have to weigh those things against the stress it's causing.

All that said, I agree with CrastersBabies. Mental health above all else!
 
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raintree

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Sorry--I sort of dropped off the radar for a bit.
I did read your replies, and I appreciate your input.

I'm now seven weeks into the project semester, with 11 more to go before it ends. I don't know if I could drop to one class this late in the game. People do go part-time, though. The downside is you can't stay with your cohort; you're always joining a new one.

What I'm finding is happening is that the deadlines are not making me want to write. They're making me NOT want to write. I've never had an issue with deadlines before. I worked for a newspaper and in PR and I know deadlines, believe me.

As the classes go on, I'm realizing that I'm not learning what I thought I would. Such as, what makes good dialogue? How do you actually end a short story? I thought that's what it was about. Not examining POV and distance ad nauseum.

I'm also underwhelmed by my classmates' work. Believe me, I'm not Alice Munro, but we've got a guy who doesn't know how to use the English language, and he's not an international student.

Forgive me for being so grumpy. I have my letter of resignation/withdrawal ready for the director. All I have to do is hit "send."
 

raintree

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A question: how much work is it? Can you give examples of what's expected on a weekly basis?

Also, do you have to be full time to receive compensation? Could you drop to one class per semester?

Ooops--in my previous reply (see above) I didn't address your questions.

1. Every other day, there is an assignment due. Since there are two classes, that's just about every day. Sometimes we are reading essays on craft and responding to them. Other times, we are reading pieces of fiction or nonfic and responding to them. Then we respond to others' responses. It's all online (except for residency).

2. No, I don't have to go full time to get reimbursed. I certainly could go part time. But I'm at a point now where I'm not sure I want to go at all.

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CrastersBabies

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I had a few "WTF" students in my MFA program. Two in particular made me wonder what in God's name they were doing there. One had grammar issues. Like, I remember writing, "I don't know what you are saying here," on her manuscript because I HONESTLY had no idea what in the hell she was writing. Like leaving out entire words or the wrong word or . . . ugh, I just get annoyed thinking about it now. That's a sign, usually, of someone throwing a piece together at the last minute and not giving a shit, or, they genuinely have syntax/grammar issues.

The other person was just a crap writer. I think her getting into the program was a nepotism deal.

But, even in the above two cases, that kind of stuff happens. You have a few people who really have no reason being there. A few who stand out in a really great way. And many who float around in between those two ends of the spectrum.

How big are the assignments? I promise I'm not trying to be too nosy, I just want to get an idea so I can say, "Yep, that's normal," or "No, that's way out of line."

Looking back, I can't pinpoint just one thing that made me "become a better writer." It really was a mish-mash. Factors include: reading published stories, critiquing published stories (e.g. reading like a writer and discussing), submitting my work for workshop and getting feedback both in the workshop and in writing, critiquing others' work and offering feedback. These things all contributed in some way.

I will say that my first semester was abso-fuckin-lutely USELESS in regard to craft. Our workshop professor was pretty much checked out. The short-story class I took was mostly centered on 1900-1950's work. We read Chekhov, lots of Flannery O'Connor, and pretty much every single Alice Munro story known to man (and to this day, I really do not appreciate her work because it was overkill, imho). We also read a shitload of Henry James and I remember thinking, "Wow, this is pretty much everything we're told NOT to do in a story now. Yay for this."

(The Turn of the Screw can eat shit a thousand times.)

I got very little out of that first semester. I can't think of a single thing I learned other than how much I can't stand Alice Munro anymore.

But then the 2nd semester happened. Everyone was loosening up. The writing came so much easier. I took a workshop class and TA'd for an undergrad workshop. THAT workshop proved so much more effective in teaching me things. It was the professor, looking back. She really matched craft talk with short stories that we read for discussion. And I was getting better at critique which meant my craft-vocabulary was increasing. I think it was that semester when I really learned how to shut off my internal editor because I was freezing up a lot my first semester. Just do it. Word-vomit on the page then go back and revise before you submit for workshop. I found my "way" that semester and from then on, it was so much easier.

Don't expect to learn plot in an MFA program. Well, if you get it, you'll get Freytag's pyramid or some crap. Maybe 15 minutes tops.

As for your questions, pose those to your instructors or advisers. Dialogue and endings all came up in my classes over 2 years at some point, but I didn't get all my answers right away.

If I could give anyone advice, it would be to just write your ass off. Even if you think it sucks. Put your head down and just do it. Get the feedback. Make mistakes. Learn. Grow. I learned more from the mistakes I made than I did from the victories.
 

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By the length of the assignments, I'm guessing you mean the responses/posts, not the readings themselves. They are a minimum of 250 words to a max of 750 (so far). The length of the readings vary. This week, for fiction, we are reading "Hills Like White Elephants" and "Black Man and White Woman in Dark Green Rowboat" and discussing how the two stories resemble one another. So far, no Munro (although I am a big fan of hers, ;) ).

As for word vomiting, I can't really do it. I don't know if it's because of my professional past, or what. For e.g., I'm trying to write a piece contrasting myself with one of my parents. I started to spill my guts and then just...stopped. I found I wasn't really contrasting anything. I was writing about a nasty episode where my father beat the crap out of me when I was 10.

Another thing I am finding: I am looking at each of these assignments as "just s/thing to get through." Not a learning experience. Honestly, I don't think I'm ready for this. Nor am I ready to really be back in school, with its constant homework and stress.

I wonder if it would all be less awkward if this were full residency.
 

CrastersBabies

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The response length sounds good. My reading load was anywhere from 100-250+ pages per week. That didnt include workshop. Most novels we were expected to read in a week unless they were longer than 300 pages. I take it low res means a lot done online? It could very well be the distance learning that's not your thing. Many prefer in-person instruction. It sounds kind of like your mind is made up. I would force myself to finish the semester and pass the classes then drop out of the program. Just make sure there arent any weird penalties for quitting a program. Sometimes there are. By at least finishing the semester you won't have a nasty disciplinary thing hanging over your head from the school. Always best to leave gracefully whenever possible in these situations. And if you have loans or financial aid you might have to pay it back ASAP (like collection agencies on you) if you fail and just drop out mid semester.
 

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It's really interesting to hear how your MFA works, Raintree. It sounds like this format may just not be conducive to your life right now. My low-res MFA worked entirely differently. All of our reading and response papers to them were due at the residencies, so we could mete out the work over several months as we saw fit. Our assignment dates during the semesters were writing submissions to our workshop group: one per month, with critiques of our fellow students' work due on a regular basis, too, and shared across the group.

I found it to be a ton of work, but I balanced it with a demanding job, homeownership and a yoga practice, and the house and I came out relatively unscathed. The garden got a little weedy.

CrastersBabies is right. There were a few stinkers in my group, too, a few solid ones, and a small handful who really stood out. But when I compare my first-semester work to my final semester work, they were light years apart, so maybe your fellow students will continue to improve.

I think you get out of an MFA what you put into it. It's helpful to catch yourself when you start comparing yourself to others and refocus your attention on what's being taught instead. Because for some writers, all those writing gears and tools and tips take years to start working in sync, and when they do, someone who previously was not quite pulling something off can turn the corner and really start kicking ass. That takes a lot longer than an MFA program in many cases. So it really has to be about what you can get out of it and learn for yourself.
 
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I would give it some more time. I am in a full-res program, and at first felt very overwhelmed by the amount of work. It's not easy. But by the end of my first semester I could see a difference in my writing. Try to keep in mind that all your hard work will not be for nothing. And MFA programs don't last forever. This is a very short time where writing gets to be the center of your life and you have (hopefully) access to great people and resources. I can't say that that same thoughts of dropping out haven't crossed my mind, but I do believe it's worth sticking out if you can. Good luck!
 

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Hello again, folks.
I thought I would let you know what happened with my low-residency MFA program.
I came thiiiiis close to finishing my first semester, handed in my final portfolio, and then dropped out right before the second residency.
Part of it was sheer panic. I had not prepared responses to my classmates' final stories. Since I work for the college where I was a student, I had the week off between Xmas and New Year's. And I was counting on doing all the critiques during that week.
Well, some emotional stuff went awry during that week, including the unexpected death of a very beloved pet. And I found myself saying that I did not want to go back.

Despite having gone through the whole semester, I still did not feel that I had a reliable writing habit. I wasn't sure I really wanted to write a book, after all. I really wasn't happy.

Three months later, I am still undecided as to whether I want to go back or not. Of course, the people in the program are encouraging me to do so. They are inviting me to come "hang out" at the next residency b/c it's an anniversary year for the program, and many successful alumni will be returning (sort of a homecoming event). I don't know if I wanna do that. I work on campus, and I think seeing people from the program (especially my cohort) here will be quite painful enough, thankyouverymuch.

I'm not happy with my life, but I'm not sure I'd be happier in the program, either. I thought I would feel a great sense of relief, but now I can't seem to put it behind me OR move forward.

Thanks for listening.
 

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I'm contemplating dropping out of my MFA program. It's low-res, like yours, but the once-yearly residency requirements are getting burdensome. (Financially as well as time-wise, as I have to be out of town for ten days every January for this bullshit.)

After this semester, I'll be finished with everything but attending two more of those 10-day shitfests and my thesis. I don't know, at this point, if the piece of paper is *that* important--at this point, I've learned pretty much everything I can from the regular classes, which I'm done with in May.

Also, the program does not look much like the one I applied to. The genre-fiction-friendly authors/instructors are gone now. (Including the director, who's left for greener pastures.) I don't have a problem with literary fiction; it's just not something I adore writing. So I'm struggling to see the point in continuing, especially when I remember that this shitty program isn't funded. (I'm paying out of pocket or with student-loan money. There's no scholarship or stipend to earn.)

Yeah. I'm going to take the summer to think about whether or not I really want to go back.
 

raintree

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Chris1981, you have no idea how relieved I am to hear you say that. Not that I'm taking pleasure in your bad experience, but it is really hard to find people who don't like their programs! I have only met one other person (on Facebook) who dropped out of her program. (Her reason was b/c her genre's department had pretty much disappeared).

Do you mind if I ask why residency is a "shitfest"? If you'd rather not have it out in public, PM me and we can chat further.

The residencies in my program were 2x a year, adding up to at least about 12 vacation days (2 for mental recovery) that I would use up. I have a kind of weird shift at my job. Sometimes I need to take vacation time or have less than 12 hours between shifts, and I end up using several vacation days because of that. So that was another factor in my leaving.
 

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About the only thing I enjoyed about my brief tenure as an MFA student was talking and hanging out with other writers, bouncing ideas and whatnot off of them. I have since found a writing group in my area that serves the same purpose without anywhere near the expense.

I don't want to get into any details, but I didn't exactly leave my MFA program voluntarily. Shit happened; mistakes were made on all sides. I'm still friends with some of my fellow students on Facebook. Have to admit it was hard when their graduation days rolled around and they were posting pictures of themselves in caps and gowns and talking about how happy they were. Kept thinking that could have been me. But at the same time, I knew they had earned the right to be proud of and celebrate their accomplishments and that it would be wrong of me to take it away from them, so I kept my mouth shut, bringing up my issues with my therapist.

I don't know what they heard from the others in the MFA program. I've decided, regarding telling what happened, that if they ever send a private message me and ask a variation on "What happened?," I will tell them. But in the mean time, I keep it to myself and wish them well.
 

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If I could give anyone advice, it would be to just write your ass off. Even if you think it sucks. Put your head down and just do it. Get the feedback. Make mistakes. Learn. Grow. I learned more from the mistakes I made than I did from the victories.

This.

I was saved from an MFA by having gone to Brown for grad school. Their program is so infamously experimental, I knew my stuff wouldn't stand a chance. I think the most important thing for an MFA program is to find the right fit -- instructors that are reasonably sympatico with your style and material, other students who are sympatico and who may become your community for life.

Otherwise, try:

Write. Read. Write. Read some good writing books -- lots of them to find the ones that whisper wisdom to you. Write. Submit. Write. Submit. Snatch in some more reading. Write.
 

aruna

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Me! Me! Me! In the UK, it was an MA in Creative Wiring at the University of Sussex. A two year prigarmme. I left after a year, for various reasons, including financial

About the only thing I enjoyed about my brief tenure as an MFA student was talking and hanging out with other writers, bouncing ideas and whatnot off of them. I have since found a writing group in my area that serves the same purpose without anywhere near the expense.

Yes! In fact, we kept the group going inofficially for quite a while, meeting once a month. Still friends with some of them.

Have to admit it was hard when their graduation days rolled around and they were posting pictures of themselves in caps and gowns and talking about how happy they were. Kept thinking that could have been me.
I felt this way too. On the other hand, I'm the only one of us who went on to actually publish and get books published. The others seem to continue to write as a hobby.
 

raintree

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About the only thing I enjoyed about my brief tenure as an MFA student was talking and hanging out with other writers, bouncing ideas and whatnot off of them. I have since found a writing group in my area that serves the same purpose without anywhere near the expense.

I very much enjoyed that aspect of residency, and I have met a lot of great people through the program.

Because of my work schedule, it's damn near impossible for me to join a writing group (or any other kind of group, or go to yoga classes, etc.)
 

raintree

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Thanks for coming forward and talking about your experiences. I was starting to feel like a total freak. i.e. why am I the only person who isn't raving? Why am I the only one pulling out my hair?

I should probably be in therapy. Not just to deal with this, but to deal with my whole life.

I don't think the problem was the program, really. It's me. And I have never even considered another program, b/c I could never afford it. Maybe a good indicator of what I feel is that I would never pay for an MFA. I asked one of my cohort if she would, and she was all, "Hell yeah." I'm very afraid of debt of any kind and have read all the quotes all over the internet about "not going into debt to get an MFA." A word to the wise is sufficient, as my mom always says!
 

Chris1981

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Do you mind if I ask why residency is a "shitfest"? If you'd rather not have it out in public, PM me and we can chat further.

I think I was a little harsh about the winter residency being a "shitfest." I'll elaborate now that I'm a little less irritated. :)

Some of my best friends are in the MFA program with me; we get to see each other once a year because we're spread out all over the state, if not the country. I love hanging out with them, taking residency classes with them, that sort of thing.

One of my favorite instructors ever taught both of the residency classes I've taken so far (January 2014 and '15). She's an amazing writer, fantastic instructor, and an all-around great person to learn from. (Her best advice to me to date has been, "Finish something even if it sucks.")

I have a full-time job. These days, I live far enough away from the residency site that I would, next January and the one after that, spend ten days in that part of the state--away from my girlfriend, our cats, and my day job. I don't get paid leave or vacation time, so I'd have to make up for that financial hole in addition to borrowing student-loan money (more of it) to go to residency in the first place.

It's just...real life, man, you know? I would be finished with this program if I could fuck off to PORTUGAL, of all places, one summer for 3.5-4 weeks, but who the hell has time or money for that? (It would count for two residency classes that I'd otherwise take the next two winters.)

My best advice for MFA candidates is to seek funding. Seriously. If you can get an editorship or readership or some such thing that pays for this, and gives you some pocket money, it may be well worth the time. You'll get to learn lots of cool stuff about writing without going into even more debt than you took on for your four-year degree.

You don't HAVE to have an MFA to write well. Some of my favorite writers have 'em; some don't. Each of us is different, and each MFA program is different, so please don't think my personal experiences are meant to speak for everybody or everything. It's just my point of view. :)
 
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