Back to Iraq?

rugcat

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Isos forces moving toward The main Kurdish city of Erbil have driven the
Yazidis, a minority Kurdish religious group into the nearby mountains.

From Isis' previous actions and stated objectives the elimination of these people if they stayed, basically genocide, would have been certain.

The US is providing food and water drops as a humanitarian action, without which many would die.

Obama faced the nation a few minutes ago and ruled out American combat troops, but did not rule out military airstrikes and drone attacks on the advancing Isis army.
Administration officials said that Mr. Obama was considering airstrikes on ISIS targets in northern Iraq that would be aimed at preventing the fall of Erbil, as the Islamic militants continued to press advances. Such a move would involve the United States in a significant battlefield role in Iraq for the first time since the last American combat soldier left at the end of 2011.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/08/0...pped-iraqis-officials-say.html?_r=0&referrer=
 

raburrell

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Andrew Sullivan put together a great set of tweet reactions to Obama's statement on the subject tonight, everything from why this is different from Syria to the implications for the rest of Kurdistan, etc. Some criticism, some praise.

As much as I don't want us involved in Iraq again, I'm heartened that Obama chose to respond to the pleas coming from Srinigar. This is the right thing to do, IMO.
 

cornflake

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Many have died. There are thousands of people, trapped on a mountain, without water or food.

We basically created this situation - we broke it, we bought it, we can't ignore this, imo.
 

rwm4768

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I knew this would eventually happen when we left. We messed things up in Iraq, and then we left before we could fix them.
 

Zoombie

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...I'm blaming Bush for this one.

His administration got us into the war, and they didn't even fucking do a good job while they were nation building.

Asshole.
 

AVS

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Middle East crisis version 39.6.

This looks like the proper use of military power. Let's hope it doesn't go too wrong (downed plane captured pilot, accidentally blowing up a school bus, that sort of thing).

I suppose the real information, at least for me, is how monstrously complex and interlinked the various crises in the Middle East are. Many of the IS fighters are those we would have been helping had the US-UK intervention in Syria plan gone ahead.

The West, at least the public, is starting to suffer serious Middle East fatigue.
 
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waylander

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I am of the opinion that the US (and NATO) will eventually have to put troops back in.
 

TheMathematician

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I am of the opinion that the US (and NATO) will eventually have to put troops back in.

Not before the different factions start killing each other, and there is a significant loss of life.

At that point we will start negotiating with the dominant player.
 

c.e.lawson

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...I'm blaming Bush for this one.

His administration got us into the war, and they didn't even fucking do a good job while they were nation building.

Asshole.

Some (most?) blame needs to be placed on Obama for not supporting/building from where Bush (and all of our soldiers' sacrifices) left off. Who pulled out all the troops?

And...I think ISIS gets a little blame as well.
 

Xelebes

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Some (most?) blame needs to be placed on Obama for not supporting/building from where Bush (and all of our soldiers' sacrifices) left off. Who pulled out all the troops?

And...I think ISIS gets a little blame as well.

What should have Obama done? Bush signed the pullout treaty.
 

raburrell

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Some (most?) blame needs to be placed on Obama for not supporting/building from where Bush (and all of our soldiers' sacrifices) left off. Who pulled out all the troops?

And...I think ISIS gets a little blame as well.

Obama did not have an option for the troops to stay. At the time, the Iraqis were not willing to give US troops immunity, which was a non-negotiable for what I hope are obvious reasons. That's the overarching deal-breaker reason we didn't stay. Iraq's parliament was not willing to sign the Status of Forces Agreement. (SOFA)

Doesn't change the reality of who created this mess in the first place, but yes, ISIS is the main bad actor at present.
 
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clintl

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Given that ISIS is bent on committing genocide, I think that is one of the few justifications for intervening. And a good place to start would be a Kosovo-style air campaign in support of the Kurds and Iraqi army.

I think it's pretty obvious, though, that a united, centralized Iraq is a not a sustainable state. Probably should have broken into three pieces back in 2005 (like Biden suggested).
 
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c.e.lawson

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Obama did not have an option for the troops to stay. At the time, the Iraqis were not willing to give US troops immunity, which was a non-negotiable for what I hope are obvious reasons. That's the overarching deal-breaker reason we didn't stay. Iraq's parliament was not willing to sign the Status of Forces Agreement. (SOFA)

Doesn't change the reality of who created this mess in the first place, but yes, ISIS is the main bad actor at present.

Yes, I'm not saying it would have been easy, but the Obama administration should have continued to negotiate some kind of support system to continue helping build their intelligence capabilities and military capabilities, which should have probably included our troops staying in longer. Our military at the time said there was a need for close to 20K troops to remain. When we're not dealing with straight out terrorists, there is always room to negotiate.
 

clintl

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Why should he have done that? The Iraqis had plenty of time to get their act together if they ever were going to. And furthermore, it wasn't our place to insist on it. They made the decision they didn't want our troops there any longer, so it was our obligation at that point to give them the opportunity to determine their own fate.
 

raburrell

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Eh, with al Maliki in, there's really not much point. Even without him, you're still looking at inserting US troops into a 900 year old sectarian conflict. Which was Bush's mistake in the first place, and the British's before that.

At the risk of sounding like I'm defending Saddam Hussein, (which I'm not), there's a reason he ruled the place the way he did. Right now, I don't care who's fault it is or how far it goes back - the immediate concern is trying to prevent a genocide.
 

c.e.lawson

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Why should he have done that? The Iraqis had plenty of time to get their act together if they ever were going to. And furthermore, it wasn't our place to insist on it. They made the decision they didn't want our troops there any longer, so it was our obligation at that point to give them the opportunity to determine their own fate.


This is a fascinating piece from The New Yorker. What We Left Behind, by Dexter Filkins, a New York Times reporter based in Iraq from 2003-2006. Bolding mine.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/04/28/what-we-left-behind?currentPage=all

The consequences became clear when negotiations began over the crucial question of withdrawing American troops after 2011. The leaders of all the major Iraqi parties had privately told American commanders that they wanted several thousand military personnel to remain, to train Iraqi forces and to help track down insurgents. The commanders told me that Maliki, too, said that he wanted to keep troops in Iraq. But he argued that the long-standing agreement that gave American soldiers immunity from Iraqi courts was increasingly unpopular; parliament would forbid the troops to stay unless they were subject to local law.

President Obama, too, was ambivalent about retaining even a small force in Iraq. For several months, American officials told me, they were unable to answer basic questions in meetings with Iraqis—like how many troops they wanted to leave behind—because the Administration had not decided. “We got no guidance from the White House,” Jeffrey told me. “We didn’t know where the President was. Maliki kept saying, ‘I don’t know what I have to sell.’ ” At one meeting, Maliki said that he was willing to sign an executive agreement granting the soldiers permission to stay, if he didn’t have to persuade the parliament to accept immunity. The Obama Administration quickly rejected the idea. “The American attitude was: Let’s get out of here as quickly as possible,” Sami al-Askari, the Iraqi member of parliament, said.

The last American combat troops departed Iraq on December 18, 2011. Some U.S. officials believe that Maliki never intended to allow soldiers to remain; in a recent e-mail, he denied ever supporting such a plan, saying, “I am the owner of the idea of withdrawing the U.S. troops.” Many Iraqi and American officials are convinced that even a modest force would have been able to prevent chaos—not by fighting but by providing training, signals intelligence, and a symbolic presence. “If you had a few hundred here, not even a few thousand, they would be coöperating with you, and they would become your partners,” Askari told me. “But, when they left, all of them left. There’s no one to talk to about anything.”


Ben Rhodes, the U.S. deputy national-security adviser, told me that Obama believes a full withdrawal was the right decision. “There is a risk of overstating the difference that American troops could make in the internal politics of Iraq,” he said. “Having troops there did not allow us to dictate sectarian alliances. Iraqis are going to respond to their own political imperatives.” But U.S. diplomats and commanders argue that they played a crucial role, acting as interlocutors among the factions—and curtailing Maliki’s sectarian tendencies.

“We used to restrain Maliki all the time,” Lieutenant General Michael Barbero, the deputy commander in Iraq until January, 2011, told me. “If Maliki was getting ready to send tanks to confront the Kurds, we would tell him and his officials, ‘We will physically block you from moving if you try to do that.’ ” Barbero was angry at the White House for not pushing harder for an agreement. “You just had this policy vacuum and this apathy,” he said. “Now we have no leverage in Iraq. Without any troops there, we’re just another group of guys.” There is no longer anyone who can serve as a referee, he said, adding, “Everything that has happened there was not just predictable—we predicted it."

But Raburrell makes extremely good and valid points in her last post (as she so often does :) )
 
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backslashbaby

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Eh, with al Maliki in, there's really not much point. Even without him, you're still looking at inserting US troops into a 900 year old sectarian conflict. Which was Bush's mistake in the first place, and the British's before that.

At the risk of sounding like I'm defending Saddam Hussein, (which I'm not), there's a reason he ruled the place the way he did. Right now, I don't care who's fault it is or how far it goes back - the immediate concern is trying to prevent a genocide.

For the immediate question, I am proud to see another humanitarian air-drop mission done by the US. These are thousands of civilians up there. I don't know whether other nations just don't have the capability to do one or whether they also (erroneously, in my view) consider Iraq "our's", but it's the right thing to do. That means that any fallout from doing it shouldn't be a grand act of war, though. If we get shot down, we get shot down.

The more military component gets sketchy and worries me. A humanitarian corridor might make sense, but the US hasn't been good at knowing when enough is enough in Iraq. We still have the same talking points on the right about what should be done there, and that concerns me very much. That's a another reason why it would have been nice to see others pull off the humanitarian mission!

The part I bolded is crucial, I think. The problem isn't that the US and allies 'broke' Iraq, although the war was certainly ridiculous and ill-advised. The main problem with wars there is that there isn't a good alternative internally. Puppet governments are a huge problem, we all know, and the natural extension of that is that 'no good choice' governments aren't going to work either. If a region has no good alternatives, it's not going to be stable unless under a dictator. That's broken to start with, and it remains so.

The sectarian nature of what's happening in Iraq is not something we did. We did end up with them having better arms, though, so this is even tougher than before all the recent wars there. And yet folks are still talking about who to arm! No, I'm OK with the humanitarian part, but there isn't much militarily that can help in a region with so many problems and factions that form in reactive (and opportunistic) ways.
 
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Williebee

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Many have died. There are thousands of people, trapped on a mountain, without water or food.

We basically created this situation - we broke it, we bought it, we can't ignore this, imo.

Created it? No. Contributed to it? Certainly. Can the US actually fix it? I doubt it.
 

backslashbaby

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This is a fascinating piece from The New Yorker.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/04/28/what-we-left-behind?currentPage=all



But Raburrell makes extremely good and valid points in her last post (as she so often does :) )

It didn't work well enough while troops were in there. We had a lot of war dead, and so did the civilian populations, and the monetary cost is astronomical.

Even supposing that it works well enough, is it reasonable to have to keep troops in a nation to stop bigger wars there? That's a perpetual war the US would have to be in indefinitely. NATO was already warmer to the thought of that than the US population (and our President) became. At some point, the cost of the war changes our minds even if the ridiculousness of the situation doesn't, imho.

Those who believe it would have worked with more time are mistaken, I think. Internal politics matter too much. You can't change the nature of the problems there from without.
 

rugcat

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Created it? No. Contributed to it? Certainly. Can the US actually fix it? I doubt it.
Exactly.

However, I think a limited campaign of airstrikes to stop the advance of Isis troops toward, for instance, the Kurdish capital, is helpful and completely warranted considering how much worse the situation will be should they gain control of such places.
 

William Haskins

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Exactly.

However, I think a limited campaign of airstrikes to stop the advance of Isis troops toward, for instance, the Kurdish capital, is helpful and completely warranted considering how much worse the situation will be should they gain control of such places.

i agree with this and think the president's statements and actions thus far have struck exactly the right balance.
 

nighttimer

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We basically created this situation - we broke it, we bought it, we can't ignore this, imo.

Ah yes, the famous Colin Powell quote that became the Pottery Barn metaphor. It's a good one but Powell insists that's not exactly what he said.

"It is said that I used the “Pottery Barn rule.” I never did it; [Thomas] Friedman did it … But what I did say … [is that] once you break it, you are going to own it, and we’re going to be responsible for 26 million people standing there looking at us. And it’s going to suck up a good 40 to 50 percent of the Army for years. And it’s going to take all the oxygen out of the political environment . .."

How unfortunate it is while George Bush, Sr. listened to Powell, George Bush, Jr. listened to Evil Dick Cheney.

Some (most?) blame needs to be placed on Obama for not supporting/building from where Bush (and all of our soldiers' sacrifices) left off. Who pulled out all the troops?

George W. Bush. He cut the deal to pull out the troops. Obama tried to cut one to keep some of them in.

First, the troop withdrawal is required by an agreement which George W. Bush negotiated and entered into with Iraq and which was ratified by the Iraqi Parliament prior to Obama’s inauguration. Let’s listen to the White House itself today: “’This deal was cut by the Bush administration, the agreement was always that at end of the year we would leave. . . .’ an administration official said.As I said, it’s a good thing that this agreement is being adhered to, and one can reasonably argue that Obama’s campaign advocacy for the war’s end influenced the making of that agreement, but the Year End 2011 withdrawal date was agreed to by the Bush administration and codified by them in a binding agreement.

Second, the Obama administration has been working for months to persuade, pressure and cajole Iraq to allow U.S. troops to remain in that country beyond the deadline. The reason they’re being withdrawn isn’t because Obama insisted on this, but because he tried — but failed — to get out of this obligation.

It would be a grave disservice to the sacrifices made by those American soldiers you referred to, c.e.lawson not to mention had Bush never plunged the United States into a fool's errand for weapons of mass destruction that did not exist, our troops would have no sacrifices to make in the first place.

Yes, I'm not saying it would have been easy, but the Obama administration should have continued to negotiate some kind of support system to continue helping build their intelligence capabilities and military capabilities, which should have probably included our troops staying in longer.

We have stayed too long, spent too much, lost too many lives, and gained too little from the Iraq War.

(Reuters) - The U.S. war in Iraq has cost $1.7 trillion with an additional $490 billion in benefits owed to war veterans, expenses that could grow to more than $6 trillion over the next four decades counting interest, a study released on Thursday said.

The war has killed at least 134,000 Iraqi civilians and may have contributed to the deaths of as many as four times that number, according to the Costs of War Project by the Watson Institute for International Studies at Brown University.

When security forces, insurgents, journalists and humanitarian workers were included, the war's death toll rose to an estimated 176,000 to 189,000, the study said.

Not one more dollar spent, not one more American life lost, not one more day lingering in this hellhole.

Enough! America has given enough to Iraq. Let them stand or fall on their own. This is an internal problem which will never be resolved by external "solutions."

We've been down that road. It's long, bloody and hard and we should not go back.
 

robjvargas

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Enough! America has given enough to Iraq. Let them stand or fall on their own. This is an internal problem which will never be resolved by external "solutions."

We've been down that road. It's long, bloody and hard and we should not go back.

Not a disagreement. Just pointing out that ISIS is not an internal problem. It's crossing borders and trying to foment unrest in several nations.