Why License a Florist?

Don

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Courtesy of the New York Times
IN Minnesota, more classroom time is required to become a cosmetologist than to become a lawyer. Becoming a manicurist takes double the number of hours of instruction as a paramedic. In Louisiana, the only state in the country that requires licenses for florists, monks were until recently forbidden to sell coffins because they were not licensed funeral directors.
...
In the 1970s, about 10 percent of individuals who worked had to have licenses, but by 2008, almost 30 percent of the work force needed them.

With this explosion of licensing laws has come a national patchwork of stealth regulation that has, among other things, restricted labor markets, innovation and worker mobility.
Why, the public needs to be protected! Of course florists, hair braiders, and coffin salesmen should be licensed. Otherwise somebody might put their eye out on an un-dethorned rose. A hair-braider might braid too tightly, popping someone's eyes from their head! And some poor schmo might get buried in a coffin where the fabric doesn't match their tie color.

Of course, that protection comes at a price, and that price is at least 15%.
There is good reason for workers in licensed fields to push for the laws. Jobs in a service-oriented economy are more likely to be licensed, which raises wages by about 15 percent, as I found in research with the Princeton economist Alan B. Krueger, the former head of President Obama’s Council of Economic Advisers. This is largely because of the ability of regulated professions working through state legislators and regulatory boards to limit the supply of practitioners and to drive up costs to consumers.
At least there's some opposition from both sides of the aisle.
On the left, there are concerns about inflated prices for essential services like plumbers and the availability of those services for people in or near poverty. Many of the jobs that require licenses are relatively low-skilled, like barbers and nurse’s aides, and licensing creates a barrier that might keep low-income people out of those positions.

Occupational licensing, moreover, does nothing to close the inequality gap in the United States. For consumers, there is likely to be a redistribution effect in the “wrong” direction, as higher income consumers have more choice among higher quality purveyors of a service and lower income individuals are left with fewer affordable service options.
OTOH, those on the right side of the aisle are relatively more concerned with economic freedom for individuals and the barriers to entry represented by occupational licensing.

And everyone should be concerned that those licensing requirements do nothing to help a moribund economy recover. Seven years of "any day now" promises of economic recovery around the corner should be enough for anybody. Is the return of medieval guilds really the direction we want our economy headed?

What say you?
 
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Michael Wolfe

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Louisiana might be technically the only state that requires a florist license, but I'd imagine florists in other states might need other kinds of licenses, like a small business license if you're running your own shop.

I do think licensing has gotten out of hand, and in some cases (though not all) it really is used for the worst reasons (i.e. trying to keep more people out of the labor market).

BTW, I believe there are some states where you even need a license to buy flowers, if you're buying them wholesale. And that might be a sort of de facto requirement for florists, since you'd probably need to buy wholesale in order to run a floral business.
 
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Albedo

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Cosmetologists, barbers, tattoo artists: all perform procedures with a risk of spreading blood-borne illness. How do you make sure they are certified in basic needle hygiene, if not through some sort of licensing scheme?
 

Don

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Cosmetologists, barbers, tattoo artists: all perform procedures with a risk of spreading blood-borne illness. How do you make sure they are certified in basic needle hygiene, if not through some sort of licensing scheme?
Certification <> licensure. One can be certified as a lifeguard by the Red Cross, for example, without being required to hold a state-granted license to hold a position as a lifeguard.
 

robjvargas

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Cosmetologists, barbers, tattoo artists: all perform procedures with a risk of spreading blood-borne illness. How do you make sure they are certified in basic needle hygiene, if not through some sort of licensing scheme?

Some sort?

IN Minnesota, more classroom time is required to become a cosmetologist than to become a lawyer. Becoming a manicurist takes double the number of hours of instruction as a paramedic. In Louisiana, the only state in the country that requires licenses for florists, monks were until recently forbidden to sell coffins because they were not licensed funeral directors.

That's a bit more than just "some sort" of licensing.
 

Michael Wolfe

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Cosmetologists, barbers, tattoo artists: all perform procedures with a risk of spreading blood-borne illness. How do you make sure they are certified in basic needle hygiene, if not through some sort of licensing scheme?

Don beat me to it. I was going to mention the example of PADI certification for SCUBA divers. I'd imagine SCUBA diving is a more hazardous activity than getting a haircut.

But I think the safety issue is sometimes a red herring, as well. When talking about licensing for, say, interior designers, the argument in favor of it is usually about protecting the rights of interior designers. But once you move over to cosmetologists, then it becomes about safety, when really it's largely about economic reasons in both cases.

Of course, for some cases it really is about safety, but I think some people tend to assume safety is the main driving force behind pretty much anything involving licensing, and that would be a mistake, imo.
 

Albedo

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Certification <> licensure. One can be certified as a lifeguard by the Red Cross, for example, without being required to hold a state-granted license to hold a position as a lifeguard.
What holds someone accountable if they represent themselves as a lifeguard without holding the relevant certifications?
Some sort?



That's a bit more than just "some sort" of licensing.
It takes more than six or seven years to become a cosmetologist in Minnesota? I'm heavily skeptical about that claim.
 

Devil Ledbetter

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Certification <> licensure. One can be certified as a lifeguard by the Red Cross, for example, without being required to hold a state-granted license to hold a position as a lifeguard.
I am a certified bra fitter. *pins rose in navel*
 

Don

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The case of Jestina Clayton is particularly informative. Utah demanded she get a cosmetologist license to braid hair. A federal judge recently ruled otherwise.
U.S District Judge David Sam in Salt Lake City said Utah's cosmetology licensing requirements are so disconnected from hair-braiding "that to premise Jestina's right to earn a living by braiding hair on that scheme is wholly irrational and a violation of her constitutionally protected rights."

Sam said the state couldn't prove a cosmetology license for hair-braiding is needed to protect public health. He also said Utah has never investigated whether any health or safety threats are associated with the practice.
To add insult to injury, the Utah cosmetology training does not teach anything about hair braiding. :D

It's also worth noting that's the eighth state where the Institute for Justice has had to argue the case that hair-braiding being restricted to cosmetologists is nonsensical. The law changed in CA in 1999 thanks to an IJ victory. There are at least a half-dozen states where the battle is still to be fought and won.
 

Don

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What holds someone accountable if they represent themselves as a lifeguard without holding the relevant certifications?
Just a wild guess, but I imagine swimming pools probably ask to see the wallet card, and may even check with the certifying agency before hiring them. Insurance companies probably require that pool management hire only certified guards.
 

Albedo

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Don beat me to it. I was going to mention the example of PADI certification for SCUBA divers. I'd imagine SCUBA diving is a more hazardous activity than getting a haircut.

But I think the safety issue is sometimes a red herring, as well. When talking about licensing for, say, interior designers, the argument in favor of it is usually about protecting the rights of interior designers. But once you move over to cosmetologists, then it becomes about safety, when really it's largely about economic reasons in both cases.

Of course, for some cases it really is about safety, but I think some people tend to assume safety is the main driving force behind pretty much anything involving licensing, and that would be a mistake, imo.

I agree that licensing is sometimes abused for the purpose of rent-seeking and protectionism.

But having seen a case of hepatitis C contracted in a barber shop in a country not known for scrupulous regulations, I've no objection in principle to the licensing of barbers (My 2 mins of Google research shows they aren't licensed in NSW, but are subject to the Public Health Act in some nebulous way).
 

clintl

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Yeah, it's a terrible thing when people make better wages.
 

Don

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Yeah, it's a terrible thing when people make better wages.
It's even worse when they're prevented from making any wage at all because they haven't jumped through the demanded hoops, even when those hoops have nothing to do with the skill set to be used. See post #9 about Jestina Clayton.
 

Michael Wolfe

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I agree that licensing is sometimes abused for the purpose of rent-seeking and protectionism.

But having seen a case of hepatitis C contracted in a barber shop in a country not known for scrupulous regulations, I've no objection in principle to the licensing of barbers (My 2 mins of Google research shows they aren't licensed in NSW, but are subject to the Public Health Act in some nebulous way).

NSW is New South Wales, right? I'd guess the risk for something like hepatitis C from a barber in NSW is pretty minimal, but even if it's not, licensing still has to be done properly, imo. In the US, sometimes (though certainly not always) licensing is really more about checking the paper trail than any actual assessment of competence. In those cases, you could even end up with negative value for the public, because people would wrongly correlate licensing with quality.

Still, in a general sense, I'm more OK with licensing for things where there's a real safety issue at stake vs. occupations where that's clearly not an issue at all, like florists. A barber might be a notch above a florist in that regard, and of course someone like an airline pilot would be even higher up on the scale. OTOH, I still think money is the real impetus for this stuff, by and large, not safety. After all, if safety was the main aspect, you'd probably end up with licensing for parents before you'd have it for florists or even barbers. :)
 

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Not a florist, but isn't there the risk of invasive species like certain insects coming in with the flora if folks aren't careful?
 

shadowwalker

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It takes more than six or seven years to become a cosmetologist in Minnesota? I'm heavily skeptical about that claim.

It's not six or seven years. It's a credit requirement usually fulfilled in a graduate study program. But I'm not sure that there's any undergraduate requirement. So if I had a degree in English Lit, I could still apply to a law college, and my undergraduate experience does not count.
 

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I think I call shenanigans on the "more hours" thing. I would like to see what that is based on. It's just not plausible.
 

robeiae

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http://mn.gov/elicense/licenses/licensedetail.jsp?URI=tcm:29-11307&CT_URI=tcm:27-117-32

Initial Operator Requirements

1. Completed Application - Type entire application first and select "Print Form", sign, date, and attach supplemental documentation and mail to Board.

2. Fees: (Payable to the BCE, Credit Card not Accepted).

3. High School/GE Diploma or Transcript (Copy)

4. Certificate of Course Completion:
-1,550 Hours for Cosmetology
-600 Hours for Esthetician
-350 Hours for Manicurist

5. Certification of Skills/Readiness from a BCE approved Minnesota Cosmetology School

6. Original passing results from the General (Theory) and Minnesota laws and rules written examinations that are not more than one year old.

7. Make a copy of the entire completed application and supporting documents for your records (Highly Recommended).

What are the requirements to pass the bar in Minnesota?
 

Xelebes

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Those 1 550 hours are to be done on the job, not in a classroom. As with most technical trades. I don't see a complaint about electricians or plumbers. 1 550 hours works out to one year.
 
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Albedo

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It's not six or seven years. It's a credit requirement usually fulfilled in a graduate study program. But I'm not sure that there's any undergraduate requirement. So if I had a degree in English Lit, I could still apply to a law college, and my undergraduate experience does not count.

But you still need the undergraduate degree. You can't just walk into law school (in the US anyway ... in Commonwealth countries you can get an undergraduate law degree in 6 years straight out of high school).

And then there's further education, qualifying for the bar, etc. It's farcical to suggest the training for cosmetology is more onerous, IMO.
 

Hapax Legomenon

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I think I call shenanigans on the "more hours" thing. I would like to see what that is based on. It's just not plausible.

"Classroom time."

Anyone who has ever taken any sort of art class knows that class hours are long to allow time for instruction, practice, critique, etc. I would guess that cosmetology is the same way especially with regards to access and materials. Class times based on study rather than practice tend to get shorter as one advances, not longer. For example in my last years of school I was spending 6 hours of class time on a 4 credit ceramics class a week while I was only spending 3 hours on a 4 credit math class. I would assume that cosmetology versus law is the same way.

So, yes, misleading.
 

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So basically they use apprenticeship where you do some time on the job and then get licensed in your own right. Okay.

Even if you count everyone of those hours it does not approach the hours you do before sitting the bar exam.

And I looked up the florist license and saw no compulsory hours at all unless I am missing something. You need a business license and possibly a nursery license. You can be *optionally* certified with extra volunteer leadership work, classes etc.
 
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