Self publish a picture book

Waldo · May 19, 2014

This is kind of specific. I am looking for a print on demand or self-publisher where I can get print runs of 1-2000+ hardcover picture books (full color cover and interior pages), with illustrated end pages. 11 x 8 1/2 inches (landscape orientation). And a combined shipping policy.

I don't want to pay any fees. Just per book printing.

I thought I had it with bookpatch.com but they don't do end pages.

Filigree · May 19, 2014

Not sure, but check out Shutterfly. A friend of mine uses them to print copies of a high-end photography book he sells at regional museums. They look stunning.

Waldo · May 19, 2014

Thanks Filigree but, shutterfly prices are a tad large for my purposes.

SBibb · May 19, 2014

Not too sure since it's been a while since I've used them, but you might check out Blurb or Lulu. I know they both have picture printed books in hardback available, but I've only used Blurb for printing photo books, and that was a while ago. Might be worth looking into, though. Of course, I would advise ordering a proof copy before committing to a large number of prints.

Old Hack · May 19, 2014

If you're going to pay for a run as long as that then don't use POD, use an offset printer. It should be cheaper per copy than digital printing: I remember the break-even point on illustrated editions was around 400 copies.

However: are you sure you need to print so many copies? That's a lot of stock to house, and when compared with the average number of copies sold by self-published authors... well. Please be careful.

Waldo · May 20, 2014

Thanks for the warning. I'm really looking for the best picture book on demand place. I have many book designs for which I may get 1-2000+orders. So, 400+ is the upper end for POD?

The larger orders pay for the the smaller ones. But, filling the smaller orders maintains the customer base.

Old Hack · May 20, 2014

Waldo said:
Thanks for the warning. I'm really looking for the best picture book on demand place.

Why are you so keen on using digital printing? Offset usually works out cheaper per copy on longer runs and the quality of the books produced is usually much better, too.

I have many book designs for which I may get 1-2000+orders.

Or you may not.

What makes you so certain that you'll get orders for this quantity?

So, 400+ is the upper end for POD?

It was on the books I was working with: coffee table books, highly illustrated non-fiction. But do your own costings and see what you come up with.

The larger orders pay for the the smaller ones. But, filling the smaller orders maintains the customer base.

You sound really confident about your books' sales potential. Have you sold many titles yet? I'd be interested in hearing more about your work.

Waldo · May 21, 2014

I'm sure I'll sell 1 book

I am sure of it because...

I'm going to buy one.

I just got my earnings report for my first published book embarrassing. I have the track record to sell more than one book.

Old Hack, if you have ever sold your own self-made products you may have noticed that certain designs outsell others. I made greeting cards at one time. One design outsold the others by more than ten or twenty times. Why did I bother with the others?

I'll tell you more in the coming weeks. Do you live with people? If you do, you what know what I mean.

Old Hack · May 21, 2014

Waldo said:
I'm sure I'll sell 1 book

I am sure of it because...

I'm going to buy one.

I just got my earnings report for my first published book embarrassing. I have the track record to sell more than one book.

Old Hack, if you have ever sold your own self-made products you may have noticed that certain designs outsell others. I made greeting cards at one time. One design outsold the others by more than ten or twenty times. Why did I bother with the others?

I'll tell you more in the coming weeks. Do you live with people? If you do, you what know what I mean.

Waldo, I'm afraid I don't understand much of what you've written here.

Please be careful. Most self-published print editions struggle to sell a couple of hundred copies, and you're considering printing 2,000 copies of "a number of book designs". Unless you already have a distributor lined up to work with you to get these printed copies into bookshops you're likely to end up with a lot of very expensive boxes stacked up in your garage.

Waldo · May 22, 2014

Old Hack,

I am sure I'll sell one book because I will buy it myself.

I published a book with meegenius.com last January, embarrassing. I let them illustrate it and what a mistake that was. Nevertheless, my book sold a stunning 7 or 8 copies. I appreciate the readers, I don't appreciate the publisher. Okay, they did give me a free copy and some free copies of other books in their library, so they're not all that bad.

I have a track record now. Also, there was a book I semi-published in 2007 that sold one copy, I bought it. Now I have my first official published book that sold 7 or 8 copies. So, I am pretty sure this run of books, books because there will be several dozen (try to analyze that statement), I could sell 1 or 8 or possibly a lot more. Who knows?

I sold greeting cards at one time. I made over 120 designs and sold them to local shops. Two designs sold the best. One was a Christmas card that appealed to Jewish customers, too! I printed thousands of copies of that card on my inkjet printer. It ran all day long. Injecting ink into the cartridges myself. Those were the days! The other was a Zen card that sold to everyone, it was a fun design. The other cards, many of the same quality, just didn't sell as well as those two designs. I'm sure books are like that, especially children's books.

Oh, and I won't order a single book without having a buyer for each one already. So, if I get orders for 43 books, I buy 43 books. Doing a 2,000 book offset printing run would be crazy.

Those POD places, try to find a price per book table. They want to sell printing packages for thousands of dollars. Predatory.

If you check out my blog, you might be able to guess what I'm doing? (Most of my posts are just about revision, more on story writing soon.) According to my blog statistics, somebody must have clicked on each one of my posts. Wow! That's like more clicks than I have had in a while. Things are looking up!

Old Hack · May 22, 2014

Waldo said:
Old Hack,

I am sure I'll sell one book because I will buy it myself.

I published a book with meegenius.com last January, embarrassing. I let them illustrate it and what a mistake that was. Nevertheless, my book sold a stunning 7 or 8 copies. I appreciate the readers, I don't appreciate the publisher. Okay, they did give me a free copy and some free copies of other books in their library, so they're not all that bad.

I have a track record now.

You have a track record of not selling any books. This is not going to help sell any future books you might publish, I'm afraid.

Also, there was a book I semi-published in 2007 that sold one copy, I bought it. Now I have my first official published book that sold 7 or 8 copies. So, I am pretty sure this run of books, books because there will be several dozen (try to analyze that statement), I could sell 1 or 8 or possibly a lot more. Who knows?

I sold greeting cards at one time. I made over 120 designs and sold them to local shops. Two designs sold the best. One was a Christmas card that appealed to Jewish customers, too! I printed thousands of copies of that card on my inkjet printer. It ran all day long. Injecting ink into the cartridges myself. Those were the days! The other was a Zen card that sold to everyone, it was a fun design. The other cards, many of the same quality, just didn't sell as well as those two designs. I'm sure books are like that, especially children's books.

What research have you done into the sales of children's books? What experience do you have in publishing, or having published, such books?

I've had a few picture books trade published. They benefited from strong marketing and promotion by their publishers, they got nationwide bookshop distribution, and they sold perhaps 800 copies each in their first year after publication. You're going to struggle to match that without distribution.

Oh, and I won't order a single book without having a buyer for each one already. So, if I get orders for 43 books, I buy 43 books. Doing a 2,000 book offset printing run would be crazy.

But this directly contradicts your first post in this thread, in which you stated,

Waldo said:
This is kind of specific. I am looking for a print on demand or self-publisher where I can get print runs of 1-2000+ hardcover picture books (full color cover and interior pages), with illustrated end pages. 11 x 8 1/2 inches (landscape orientation). And a combined shipping policy.

You said you wanted to print one or two thousand copies. That's what worried me: that you appeared to be starting off with a print-run of one thousand copies. Did you mean you might print just one copy, but if you got orders you'd print up to two thousand at once?

Those POD places, try to find a price per book table. They want to sell printing packages for thousands of dollars. Predatory.

Go to a printer, not a company selling publishing packages.

If you check out my blog, you might be able to guess what I'm doing? (Most of my posts are just about revision, more on story writing soon.) According to my blog statistics, somebody must have clicked on each one of my posts. Wow! That's like more clicks than I have had in a while. Things are looking up!

I had a look at your blog. I am probably responsible for the clicks you saw.

If my visit made such a difference to your blog's statistics, you can't have much of a following there. How do you intend to sell your books when no one knows about you?

Also, I was concerned by your claim that you advise others on children's book publishing. How are you qualified to do this when you've not really published anything successfully of your own?

alexaherself · May 22, 2014

Waldo said:
According to my blog statistics, somebody must have clicked on each one of my posts. Wow! That's like more clicks than I have had in a while. Things are looking up!

Sorry to disappoint you, but some of them were me.

I've been quietly following the thread with a rather macabre fascination, not to mention some vicarious palpitations on your behalf at the thought that you might actually make the mistake of underestimating or even ignoring Old Hack's advice, here.

Torgo · May 22, 2014

Hi Waldo! I've been publishing picture books for about a decade, and they are not easy to sell even with a trade publishing house behind you. We'd publish thirty or so picture books a year and probably two thirds of them would fail to get picked up by a major retailer. No stock out in the world? No sales except for a trickle through Amazon. You don't even have the comfort of ebook sales, because people simply don't buy e-versions of picture books. You're always pitching for foreign rights sales because your home market doesn't take enough to cover the costs of making the book. It's brutal.

What I'm saying is, print as few copies as you can. If possible, get the orders up front. POD is pretty quick these days, right? Get the money before you place print orders. You do not want to order 400 copies and have mouldering cartons of picture books in your basement for months for lack of orders. This happens to the best books. We have a warehouse; you probably don't; storage costs money or eats into your living space.

If you're thinking of selling the books to retailers, you don't need to have more than one proof to show. It doesn't need to be bound, and you don't need to have stock on hand immediately. Book buyers operate nine months ahead at least. They don't want your books on their shelves today, because they already filled them up nine months ago. Get an order, then place the print order.

Consider something like Kickstarter to cover print costs. That way you get a precise estimate of the number of buyers, you can organize rewards into tiers, you won't print more or less than you need, and there's no risk to you financially. I've seen picture books like yours successfully funded on Kickstarter.

Waldo · May 22, 2014

Hey Old Hack,

Thank you for spending the time discussing this with me.

Selling 8 books from Meegenius.com is a track record if you have a sense of humor. Plus, there's no stock. They are ebooks.

My research is pretty much private, it's into a particular company. I'll tell you later. I'll post a link on my blog.

Who says I won't have distribution. 800 copies a year? That's fantastic! If I don't get an order, I don't buy. Except I'll buy one for myself.

You know this will really be cleared up once I actually tell you what business I'm thinking of, you'll laugh.

1-2000+ means: one to two-thousand books or more.

I teach first timers and it's about writing and illustrating books, not getting into publishing. I'll tell you and everyone from the start, though my critiques and in person activities are more creative than just about any writing/illustrating/storytelling teacher/programs out there it is no promise or guarantee that you will get published or sell a book. But, I do promise that I can help you. Two sets of eyes are better than one. (market potential analysis is really simple with my students: 8,278 word picture books generally don't sell; a rhyming book is nothing without meter; and picture books about homeless are generally self-published. Basic marketing stuff. Not rocket science.)

So, besides the one place where the price is reasonable per book but doesn't have the size I want, there really isn't anything out there where I can by one or ten or fifty seven or three thousand and eight copies without paying setup fees? (Shutterfly, Blurb and some of the others don't have landscape and the price per book is sometimes many times over the cost of a new book in the store, Shutterfly's price was completely outrageous!)

Waldo · May 22, 2014

Thanks Torgo.

Alexa, thank you I think?

shelleyo · May 22, 2014

Waldo said:
My research is pretty much private, it's into a particular company. I'll tell you later. I'll post a link on my blog.
...

You know this will really be cleared up once I actually tell you what business I'm thinking of, you'll laugh

Why be coy? Why not just say it now?

So, besides the one place where the price is reasonable per book but doesn't have the size I want, there really isn't anything out there where I can by one or ten or fifty seven or three thousand and eight copies without paying setup fees? (Shutterfly, Blurb and some of the others don't have landscape and the price per book is sometimes many times over the cost of a new book in the store, Shutterfly's price was completely outrageous!)

You'll pay setup fees anywhere, and most POD options, if not all, are going to make the book more expensive than you probably want. I wouldn't invest much based on a history of 7 or 8 ebook sales. Torgo's advice is probably your best bet. Many people use Kickstarter as a sort of pre-order system for all types of products.

Old Hack · May 22, 2014

Waldo said:
My research is pretty much private, it's into a particular company. I'll tell you later. I'll post a link on my blog.

I'm not hear to play guessing-games. I'm not going to look at your blog again.

Who says I won't have distribution. 800 copies a year? That's fantastic! If I don't get an order, I don't buy. Except I'll buy one for myself.

Your books are not going to sell 800 copies. You'll be lucky if they sell 80 copies each.

You won't get full bookshop distribution because you won't meet the distributors' requirements as a self-published author.

For example, distributors only work with publishers which have published a good number of books which have sold a good number of copies; they expect their publisher clients to have strong marketing plans with a good marketing budget behind them; they expect their clients to provide stock of their books, to make them fully returnable, and to use offset printing and not POD.

You know this will really be cleared up once I actually tell you what business I'm thinking of, you'll laugh.

I am not feeling like laughing now. In fact, I am feeling confused and irritated by you.

I teach first timers and it's about writing and illustrating books, not getting into publishing. I'll tell you and everyone from the start, though my critiques and in person activities are more creative than just about any writing/illustrating/storytelling teacher/programs out there it is no promise or guarantee that you will get published or sell a book. But, I do promise that I can help you. Two sets of eyes are better than one. (market potential analysis is really simple with my students: 8,278 word picture books generally don't sell; a rhyming book is nothing without meter; and picture books about homeless are generally self-published. Basic marketing stuff. Not rocket science.)

You have no experience in publishing, your books have sold in pitiful quantity, you're published by a dubious publisher, you're planning on self publishing but it's clear that you don't know enough about what's involved to make it work; and yet you're teaching people how to write and illustrate.

This does not sound good to me.

So, besides the one place where the price is reasonable per book but doesn't have the size I want, there really isn't anything out there where I can by one or ten or fifty seven or three thousand and eight copies without paying setup fees? (Shutterfly, Blurb and some of the others don't have landscape and the price per book is sometimes many times over the cost of a new book in the store, Shutterfly's price was completely outrageous!)

It's expensive to print picture books.

If you use POD, it's very expensive.

These are basic things that you should understand before you go any further.

Waldo · May 22, 2014

Yeah, I can't find a POD that will print a hardcover for less than $25 per piece. There's got to be one. I guess I can go softcover but the costs for what you get.

Old Hack if you are frustrated, why bother? Do you know how crazy mean your post here are?

Polenth · May 22, 2014

The majority of the picture books on my shelf are softcover. Hardcover is really for special books from my favourite authors (and a few I got when we had the picture book critique club on AW). So I don't see that going for softcover is going to be a big issue.

cornflake · May 22, 2014

Waldo said:
Yeah, I can't find a POD that will print a hardcover for less than $25 per piece. There's got to be one. I guess I can go softcover but the costs for what you get.

Old Hack if you are frustrated, why bother? Do you know how crazy mean your post here are?

Why does there have to be one? That's like saying you can't find a new car for sale for the $3000 you want to pay, but there's got to be one. No, there doesn't.

Old Hack hardly needs my defense, but I don't see anything at all mean in her posts here. Further, I suspect OH was 'bothering' to attempt to help you, and save you from making costly mistakes you'll regret down the line.

I too have been sort of following the thread, and your posts are hard to parse. As well, the guessing-game thing irritates many people.

Waldo · May 22, 2014

Here you go. Pagedia.com. Special offer 100 32-page picture books landscape orientation $999.00. It has my size and everything. Now I just have to tweak my kickstarter project. I have a feeling the better selling versions of my book will pay for the lower selling versions. Or they will possibly cancel each other out.

Wait...inspiration. Upgrades. That will do it.

Thank you everyone. Case closed.

Old Hack, I have simple question on writing to infuriate you if you wish?

Sheryl Nantus · May 22, 2014

bored now.

Good luck on the KS.

JournoWriter · May 22, 2014

Old Hack if you are frustrated, why bother?

Uhm, because she's trying to keep you from making a tremendous mistake and wasting time and money, out of the goodness of her heart?

Little Ming · May 22, 2014

JournoWriter said:
Uhm, because she's trying to keep you from making a tremendous mistake and wasting time and money, out of the goodness of her heart?

I suspect it's more because there are other people reading these threads; so even if she can't talk one person out of making a massive mistake, maybe a dozen other silent lurkers won't do the same.

Or because she's crazy mean.

Old Hack · May 22, 2014

Waldo said:
Yeah, I can't find a POD that will print a hardcover for less than $25 per piece. There's got to be one. I guess I can go softcover but the costs for what you get.

There might not be a digital printer which can print hardbacks for less than that price: digital printing is expensive per copy even at a basic spec, and adding in things like a larger size and a hard cover adds a lot to that expense.

Be careful if you do go for a soft cover: digital editions do suffer from curling covers and while the laminates which cause this curling have been greatly improved over recent years it is still a problem; and it's exacerbated by the larger size usually required for picture books. Make sure you get a few proof copies and leave them on a table, not stacked up, for a few days to see how they behave.

Old Hack if you are frustrated, why bother?

I bother because I can see you heading for an expensive mistake; and because even if you don't appreciate my help and advice others might pay attention and learn from it.

Do you know how crazy mean your post here are?

When you ask for advice here, you'll be given advice. You might not like the advice you are given, but that's no reason to start name-calling.

Go and read the newbie guide right now. Do it before you post here again. I won't have name-calling or rudeness at AW.

I hope that's clear.

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