Pagan boys and character research

kuwisdelu

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Hi all,

So I've got this character I've been juggling in my head for a while who'll enter my novel-in-progress in the second act, and I had been tossing around the idea of making her a pagan. She's also something of a love interest for the male narrator, so I had also been tossing around the possibility of making her a boy.

Yet most of what I "know" about paganism is about female witches and divine feminines, so where do pagan boys fit into the mix?

First, here's what I know about this character. He and his older sister have just moved to a small town in New Mexico. Their parents are dead, and he's been raised by his sister for the last several years. Before that, he was close to their mother. Her sister moved them to this town following work. His sister blames him for their parents' death, and so despite raising him, she is also abusive toward him.

So some questions:

1. I need a path for him. I want this to have been passed down to him from his mother before she died, who received it from her mother, and so on. So I'm looking for a form of traditional paganism that can have survived (more or less) unbroken through being passed down through generations in his family. If anyone has any resources for this, I would appreciate it. I'm looking for both historical and contemporary accuracy. So I don't want him practicing things that aren't practiced anymore today, and I also don't want to find myself reading some Carlos Casteneda rip-off or any other plastic shamanism.

2. I intend for his sister to be a lapsed pagan. In addition to blaming him for their parents' death, I want her resentment toward him to be somewhat fueled by his closer relationship with their mother. Because of her disinterest in their beliefs, most of the traditions were passed to him instead. If anyone has any insight into how to realistically portray this dynamic in a pagan family, I'd love to hear it.

3. I need some insight into his experience as a boy pagan now living in a small southwestern town populated mostly by Mormons and a few Native Americans (namely, my narrator). The imagery of modern paganism in popular media is dominated by the female witch, so what is it like to be a pagan boy in modern southwestern America with no nearby pagan community? I'd like for him to identify as a witch; would a boy still identify as a witch? And lastly, I haven't pinned down his sexuality yet, but he's not hetero. I'd be grateful for any insight into pagan concepts of gender identity and sexual identity.

Many thanks for any responses!
 
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thothguard51

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My understanding is that females pass their knowledge on to daughters, not the sons...

So first, I think you would have to figure out why the mom would break tradition?
 

kuwisdelu

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My understanding is that females pass their knowledge on to daughters, not the sons...

So first, I think you would have to figure out why the mom would break tradition?

That's my understanding, too. But the daughter, his sister, has no interest in beliefs or traditions. She doesn't believe in or care for any of it. Her mother tried to teach her, of course, but it was no use. Does that seem realistic?

Because of her disinterest in the old ways, most of the traditions were passed to him instead. If anyone has any insight into how to realistically portray this dynamic in a pagan family, I'd love to hear it.
 
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thothguard51

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Wouldn't the mother have started teaching the daughter at a very early age, before she decided she wanted nothing to do with it.

These things were usually taught in secret, when no one else was around, but if the son was very small and the mother did not think he understood what she was trying to teach the daughter, well maybe she started including him when he showed interest unlike the daughter???
 

kuwisdelu

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Wouldn't the mother have started teaching the daughter at a very early age, before she decided she wanted nothing to do with it.

Probably, but there are some years between the children, and when the daughter rejects that identity as a teenager, I figure the mother would turn to her son rather than let the traditions die. I don't think the father is pagan, either. I don't know much about him yet.

And I don't know enough about any pagan path to have any idea what she teaches him. It needn't be the same thing as what she teaches the daughter. In either case, the end result is that by the time the story takes place, he still identifies as pagan, and his sister doesn't.

He doesn't need to take on a traditionally female role or anything like that if that would be too unrealistic.

Edit: If it would be more realistic to keep her pagan too, I can do that. But the things of which I am sure are that there is a rift between them, their parents are dead, and his older-sibling-now-caretaker blames him for it and is abusive.

Edit: I could revert him back to a girl if necessary, in which case my first question still stands. But then my main characters would be a boy narrator and three girls, and I rather like the mix-up of sexual dynamics if this character becomes a boy.
 
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thothguard51

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The daughter may reject paganism, but that does not mean she does not understand or identify with it at times, when it suits her, or something like that...
 

kuwisdelu

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The daughter may reject paganism, but that does not mean she does not understand or identify with it at times, when it suits her, or something like that...

Perhaps, but my question is mainly about him, since he's a more important character and has more page time.

Regardless, a pagan mother would surely teach her son some things about their beliefs and traditions, no?
 
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thothguard51

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Yes, but I think she would teach him things that are gender neutral or male oriented. Whatever that would be...

No reason to teach him how to reduce inflammation while having a period...
 

kuwisdelu

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Yes, but I think she would teach him things that are gender neutral or male oriented. Whatever that would be...

No reason to teach him how to reduce inflammation while having a period...

Like I said:

And I don't know enough about any pagan path to have any idea what she teaches him. It needn't be the same thing as what she teaches the daughter.

I know in my tribe and others, there are some positions (priesthoods, etc.) and knowledge (medicine, etc.) that are traditionally held by men, but are also sometimes passed to women. You teach who is willing to learn, regardless of traditional gender roles. I don't know if similar positions or knowledge exist in paganism, or whether this would happen in this particular situation.
 
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regdog

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Witch is not gender specific. Male witches call themselves witches too. Traditions aren't always mother to daughter, boys are taught. That is why we have priests as well as priestesses.

Since your character is raised in a Pagan family and I'm assuming Pagan culture the son would have been educated in the traditions and knowledge equally.

What may have differed was if it was tradition for the daughters to be trained as midwives and the son's as alchemists, or either son or daughter as the herbalist. It would depend on the family and their roll in the community.

In many instances it wasn't until the rise of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism that many religious and cultural rolls became gender specific. Women were removed for almost all midwife rolls, healing, warrior, hunting and became chattel.

There are many ancient paths still practiced today, Celtic, for example.
 

Antonin

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No reason to teach him how to reduce inflammation while having a period...

I dunno, I could see a reason for teaching a boy that. He could pass that knowledge down to help his sister or anyone else that's female. I figure the mother probably assumed that there was a chance that he may have a daughter at some point.

Why let knowledge die especially if it's this kind of tradition?
 

frimble3

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His sister blames him for their parents' death, and so despite raising him, she is also abusive toward him.
How did they die? Is he responsible in some way? Does he feel guilt for their deaths? This would probably affect how he feels about her abuse of him.
I intend for his sister to be a lapsed pagan. In addition to blaming him for their parents' death, I want her resentment toward him to be somewhat fueled by his closer relationship with their mother. Because of her disinterest in the old ways, most of the traditions were passed to him instead. If anyone has any insight into how to realistically portray this dynamic in a pagan family, I'd love to hear it.
I don't know how to portray this in a pagan family, but in my generic non-practicing Christianish family (I have very little idea of what any religious people do, aside from fundraise)it could go something like this:
The sister starts out being groomed by the mother to take over the traditional family activities (if not religious, then cooking, or sports or camping. Whatever the family 'thing' is.) Their personalities clash, the daughter tosses her head, claims indifference, if not actual hostility to the role/activities and shuns them, and, by connection, her hurt and bewildered mother.
Mother has a second child, and, because she wants someone to learn the family stuff, starts to teach him, perhaps casually at first, ie, hauls him around with her to activities before he's old enough to be considered more than 'the baby'. He's a spectator, picks stuff up by osmosis, seems interested, so she starts explaining stuff. If their personalities are more harmonious, the hanging out together doing the family stuff is just what they do. The thought of him being a boy doing 'female' stuff is sort of ignored. Like a boy who's cooking with his mother. Or a girl building stuff with her dad. Different if the pagan stuff is gendered, but if there are grey areas...?
Which might be all the more maddening to the daughter, who cut herself off from a big chunk of her mother's life, but, in her eyes, her mother just replaced her, so it's not as though her absence counts. Made worse if the parents died prematurely or suddenly, because as long as they were alive, there was the chance the relationship could improve. Death ends that hope, and gives her another reason to resent her brother.
Oh, and did the sister just abandon Paganism, or actually adopt some other faith? Or is just 'passing', esp. if the dominant culture is non-Pagan, and being 'other' is socially awkward.
If her new faith views pagans as bad, there's more conflict.
FWIW.
 

regdog

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Can you suggest any resources for further research?

The Pagan Federation has go information and lots of leads for more information.

There are also lots of books by Silver Ravenwolf, Morning Glory Zell-Ravenheart, Christopher Penczak that teach customs rituals and history.

I follow Christopher Penczak's teaching and am a member of the Temple he co-founded.
 

kuwisdelu

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Thanks.

I should add that one of the elements that's important to me in my research is sources that distinguish between which beliefs and practices are modern reconstructions or reinterpretations, and which have survived more or less intact from ancient traditions. (It's an important distinction for his relationship with my narrator.)
 

regdog

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That could be tough. Very little in the Pagan faith is "cast in stone" as in other religions.

Let's say you use the Celtic Path. Traditions can vary from coven to coven. While stones, and herbs have specific functions their usage and spells using them can vary from each coven to Witch using them.

Even in different covens members have different experiences during rituals.
 

Karen Junker

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It is my belief that there are no traditions which survive from ancient times, though there are pagans who believe that there ARE and I don't want to insult them in any way.

I am pagan and also a witch (trained by my grandmother from very early childhood). In addition, I am an initiate of a Wiccan tradition known as Silver Crescent. I have also practiced druidry through the ADF and attended training and ritual with many, many other pagan groups (including Celtic, Norse and Umbanda, as well as eclectic groups that call themselves wiccan).

I raised my son and daughter equally, giving them all the exposure to magic, herbs, healing, ritual, etc. They are now in their 30s and have chosen not to continue to follow a pagan religion.

PM me if you would like more info.
 

kuwisdelu

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It is my belief that there are no traditions which survive from ancient times, though there are pagans who believe that there ARE and I don't want to insult them in any way.

This is what my research is suggesting, and I can work with that, too. The point is I want to be accurate, and not have him say his ancestor's believed something when they really didn't.

Edit: Since this portion of my PM to Karen is relevant here, too, I'll add this:

...most of the story I want to tell regarding these things is rather ordinary: I probably won't show him performing any rituals or magic any more than my narrator will be saying any Zuni prayers.

So in addition to historical accuracy, as well as reflection of modern beliefs, what I'm mostly interested in is the everyday life of a pagan boy. The rest of the story beyond the magic and rituals. What are all the little everyday things that would reflect a pagan upbringing and worldview?

Especially those little cultural things that a non-pagan may not recognize, but a pagan might say "that is so true!"
 
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Gavin Aendless

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Probably the clearest difference between 'traditional' witchcraft and the modern pagan reinventions is that the former is best described as a set of practices, while the latter is a religious movement.

Until Gardner's time, a lot of actual witchcraft, when you get right down to it, was little old ladies in black putting the evil eye on each other (usually over what their niece Shirl said to our daughter Betsy twenty years previously) before tottering off to Confession with the nice young priest. In rural areas it consisted of a goodly amount of herb-lore, some witch-bottles, corn-dollies and other items for protecting houses and their occupants, some hands-on charming ringworm out of cattle, getting young lovers together or breaking them up, curse-breaking, and a generous dash of good old-fashioned magical feuding. Perhaps even a degree of contact with some of the local fae and spirits of place, bartering favours. The practitioners of such sometimes advertised themselves as white witches, but more often (particularly in England) as Cunning-Men or Women.

As for worshipping gods and goddesses... drawing down the moon into naked priestesses, calling oneself a pagan? Nah. No way. That was for Bohemian lords and ladies who could afford to spend their days writing poetry, wasted on absinthe and laudanum, and their nights dabbling in Occultism. No one called it witchcraft, which had long associations with peasantry. Gardner's innovation (with inspiration from Aleister Crowley, firmly of the upper-class Bohemian tradition) was to present the nascent English post-WW2 middle classes with a religious cultus synthesised from both high and low magic traditions.

The term 'witch' being non-gender-specific is another post-Gardner convention, I'm pretty sure. Prior to that, the archetypal Witch was always linked to the Feminine. I can't think of a single male witch in folklore or myth - plenty of magicians, but no witches. George Pickingill was described as a 19th century witch, but only by authors post-Gardner. The figures which have most powerfully shaped the Witch archetype are probably Lucan's Erictho, and Circe and Medea from Greek myth.

That doesn't mean, however, that men historically did not practice magic or do the kinds of things mentioned above - particularly in the case of charming ringworm out of cattle.

So, were I writing this book, I would use the terms 'cunning man' and 'cunning-craft' to reference the practices of the boy and whoever taught him - and with the above in mind, it doesn't have to be his mother.
 

kuwisdelu

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Until Gardner's time, a lot of actual witchcraft, when you get right down to it, was little old ladies in black putting the evil eye on each other (usually over what their niece Shirl said to our daughter Betsy twenty years previously) before tottering off to Confession with the nice young priest. In rural areas it consisted of a goodly amount of herb-lore, some witch-bottles, corn-dollies and other items for protecting houses and their occupants, some hands-on charming ringworm out of cattle, getting young lovers together or breaking them up, curse-breaking, and a generous dash of good old-fashioned magical feuding. Perhaps even a degree of contact with some of the local fae and spirits of place, bartering favours. The practitioners of such sometimes advertised themselves as white witches, but more often (particularly in England) as Cunning-Men or Women.

I was thinking more of ancient Celtic religions and Druidry and things like that. Pre-Christian beliefs and traditions.
 

regdog

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One thing that I should have mentioned is that what each person refers to themselves as is individual to that person. I know those who practice Witchcraft but only refer to themselves as Pagans. Many who practice Wicca refer to themselves only as Wiccans and neither Witches nor Pagans.

I should have been more clear when I spoke earlier. For me, I have always identified as Witch and all too often use the term instead of Pagan.

There are still so many prejudices and misinformed stereotypes about Witches.

I'm sorry Gavin but when you said

Until Gardner's time, a lot of actual witchcraft, when you get right down to it, was little old ladies in black putting the evil eye on each other (usually over what their niece Shirl said to our daughter Betsy twenty years previously) before tottering off to Confession with the nice young priest.

to me that falls right in with the societal prejudice and stereotype that makes Paganism, Wicca and Witchcraft viewed as nothing more than a joke.

Consider The Burning Times, tens of thousands men and women were systematically tortured and murdered just on the suspicion of Witchcraft.
Many were convicted on nothing more than accusation and Celestial testimony. Meaning what they said they dreamed about was taken as fact and used against the accused. In all likelihood a few of those killed were probably believers of a some form of Paganism. The majority were not.

With such wholesale torture and murder and the need of almost no proof whatsoever to convict most who did practice Paganism remained silent and secretive about their beliefs. Many kept up the appearance of Christianity such as attending church. A few did seek to live in solitude and part of the stereotype of Witches being a crazy, old women whose mind was gone came from there.

The women who claimed to be able to remove the evil eye were not practitioners of Paganism, or Witchcraft, but Christians who blended lore with Christian faith. There is a marked difference.

Society may have deemed these women Witches but they were not. It was society deciding who and what should be considered Witches.

With the prejudice against any form of Witchcraft and Paganism still very much a part of society it went "underground" for lack of a better word. And only recently have some people been willing to be open and public about it.

Look at Hollywood's common portrayals of those who practice Paganism or Witchcraft. Witches are psychotic, murderous, lunatics. Pagans are flaky, dancing in the woods hippies.
 

Foinah

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I don't want to dog pile, but I must take exception.

Exactly what Regdog just said, Gavin. Spot on.

My family is full of witches, wytches, and wisefolk who called themselves witches all the way back for at least five generations that we have written down -- the priests knew it, too and often came for remedies or help as well. So speaking in generalities might be a bit off base ;-)
 

kuwisdelu

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Maybe it would be better if I simplified a bit.

What are some stereotypes you'd want to see avoided with a pagan character?

What are some lesser-portrayed aspects of pagan cultures you'd love to see portrayed?

What are some ways paganism has impacted your life, or moments it's influenced you, that you could identify with in a pagan character? Feel free to be specific to your path (but please mention what that is).

Many thanks!
 

regdog

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Maybe it would be better if I simplified a bit.

What are some stereotypes you'd want to see avoided with a pagan character?

What are some lesser-portrayed aspects of pagan cultures you'd love to see portrayed?

What are some ways paganism has impacted your life, or moments it's influenced you, that you could identify with in a pagan character? Feel free to be specific to your path (but please mention what that is).

Many thanks!



There are quite a few stereotypes I hate, the biggest one is Witches and Pagans as murderous lunatics. We are not murderous, animal sacrificing psychos. Nor are we flaky, hippie, dingbats who talk as though we got really into the drug scene of the 60's and are still there. "Because, it's like so important to, you know, be at one with everyone, and like everything."
UGH! **cringe**

People do not chose this path to gain "super" power over others.

Nor will they cast a spell to harm anyone, or do a spell for anyone who does not want, or ask for it. One person wants a love spell cast on a person who is not interested in them, it won't be done. Even when a Witch or Pagan knows a person is ill and wants to do a healing spell for them, if the person doesn't want them to, they won't.

Spells and rituals aren't done and then clouds form, thunder rumbles etc. It's not Harry Potter magic. So many rituals are quiet and peaceful and meditative.

Different groups don't war with each other.

We don't all wear black clothes, black eyeliner, brood and adopt the "goth appearance". Some do chose to wear robes or black all the time, it is an individual choice.



I would love for people to see Paganism and Witchcraft as respectful religions. I would love to see these paths shown as good ways to live and faiths to believe in and practice. For others to see that they are not something to be feared or maligned and those practicing them are just like everyone else.

That it's not okay to ridicule, or mock.

To show the respect and care we believe in and practice for nature and people.

For others to see spells and rituals are only done for the greatest good.

That to walk these paths one must be disciplined and dedicated. it takes work and study.

I would love to see true herbology, gem stone usage, healing spells, harvest rituals, seasonal rituals. Also parents teaching these ways to their children.



I have always identified as a witch. I was raised as a Roman Catholic but no matter how hard I tried and I did try, I couldn’t truly believe. I wanted to. My friends and I all went to the same Catholic school and they were so devout as was my grandmother. I wanted to believe as they did but couldn’t. I wanted to use herbs, spells and stones but couldn’t understand why until I first heard about witches. Then I knew what I was.

When I would visit my Aunt who was studying tarot I was always drawn to the deck like a magnet. I would spend the weekends carrying the cards, shuffling and reading them. One night I laid them out in order and told the entire story of the deck without ever having read or learned anything about them.

Going to Catholic school we had it drilled into us that witches were evil creatures and servants of the Devil. I always felt bad about and wished it were different. When I reached high school, I was still attending Catholic school but I did not believe, made no attempt to and was not going there by choice. We had to go to confession and I had no desire to but did. I told the priest I didn’t believe any of it. He smiled and said I didn’t have to. It was an amazing change from the priests I had in grammar school. He said if I believed in faith and love and that there was something bigger than myself in the universe I would find my own path. As I got older accepted my desire to use herbs, stones and spells again so I started reading books on solo witches and the craft. Admitting to being a witch was a relief and empowering to no longer deny who I truly am or think that I’m some evil creature.



For me one of the most important things to see in a Pagan character or Witch is for them to be written or portrayed as a normal person. They have no ulterior motive or mad quest for power. People who walk these paths are in every walk of life. They are doctors, lawyers, cab drivers, store clerks, teachers, writers :) etc.

Chances are most people already know a Pagan or Witch, they just might not know it. Fear keeps so many of hidden and rightfully so. In many parts of the world people, especially women are still killed on just the suspicion of being a Witch. Here in the US prejudice against those who walk the Witch and Pagan path is massive.

When he was Gov. George Bush was furious that Ft Hood began allowing Pagan rituals. In a televised interview he was quoted as saying "He didn't believe Witchcraft was a real religion."

Fliers were being passed around the towns abutting Ft Hood warning children and animals were going to be kidnapped and sacrificed.

Roberta Stewart had to fight the VA for years after her husband Patrick was killed in the line of duty in Afghanistan. They refused to allow a Pentacle to be on his grave marker. They didn't acknowledge it as a legitimate religious symbol. Nevada allowed it in their cemetery but she had to fight for years for it to be allowed in all military cemeteries.
 
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Wilde_at_heart

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I would love to see true herbology, gem stone usage, healing spells, harvest rituals, seasonal rituals.

To add to this point, one thing I don't think can be separated from 'paganism' is the degree that it's rooted in agriculture and the countryside.

Traditions lasted longer there because it was harder for Inquisitors, etc. to stamp them out, but also, many of the original practices centered around when to plant, when to harvest, when to bring the herd outdoors, start making babies, etc. The choice was successful crops or starvation.

As for the stereotype of witches being mean old women, according to one professor I had, it was a way to get rid of what was considered an 'unproductive' segment of the population. It might have been a feminist re-casting, but who knows... In more patriarchal societies such as early wingnut colonists, it's entirely possible.
 
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