Literary Agent Writers with . . . Literary Agents

Avatar_fan said:

So he's a literary agent who got another literary agent, Kirby Kim of Janklow and Nesbit, to represent him. Do you guys think that was necessary? Fishman was already a literary agent. He knows all about contracts and editors and stuff like that. Why would he need another literary agent to represent him?

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Seems that he thought it was prudent, and that is all that matters. Necesary? Who knows. Advisable? Likely.

Agents do more than negotiate contracts. They are the stern business face that puts on the fighting pants and wades into the fray when necessary, so that the author doesn't have to. It can be immensely beneficial for an author to be able to maintain the creative relationships and have someone else to fight the battles.

Plus, then there is also an agent to field inquiries and rep foreign rights, etc.

And I didn't look up this agent to see if he reps what he writes, but sometimes there are agents who primarily write in one market, and rep in another. BUT, even when they rep and write in the same market, it may also help with keeping their agenting client relationships a bit insullated, since if someone else is negotiating his deals, no client will feel like he negotiates better deals for himself than them.

And... there could be a host of other reasons.

Avatar_fan said:

If I was in his position, I'd just represent myself and quit the maddening process of querying all together. I thought it was just odd that he took the time to find a literary agent for his book when he himself was already a literary agent.

What do you guys think?

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I'm a lawyer. But if I needed a lawyer, I'd hire a lawyer. A lawyer (or agent) acting on my behalf can say and do things that might make me feel uncomfortable, because I might worry about how it makes me look or if I sound too pushy or conceited or...whatever. But my agent or lawyer can speak on behalf of me (the client) with a level of distance.

There's an old saying that goes something like if a lawyer tries to represent himself he has a fool for a client. I think that applies for agents, as well, in many cases.

The same reasons I want an agent now would apply even if I were an agent. And many agents who also write have agents, often outside their agency. It's common. I assume it is for all these reasons and more.

~suki

Avatar_fan said:

So he's a literary agent who got another literary agent, Kirby Kim of Janklow and Nesbit, to represent him. Do you guys think that was necessary? Fishman was already a literary agent. He knows all about contracts and editors and stuff like that. Why would he need another literary agent to represent him?

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Right in the next paragraph:

Seth Fishman said:

I just think writers need someone on their side to help and explain and advise. In fact, I'd venture to say that selling a book is the LEAST we do. A good book, any agent should be able to sell that. But it's not easy to find the correct editor, the perfect house. It takes a good foreign rights team to land you deals in other countries. The agency where I work, The Gernert Company, has an in-house marketing team. We have contracts people. We have film connections. The self-published author is a growing success, but I think everyone could use a good pair of eyes watching, advising, editing and helping. And that's what we do. I think big publishers will disappear before agents.

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A conflict of interest. A second pair of eyes. Makes sense to me.

I wouldn't rep myself. I'd feel pretty arrogant doing so.

My agent loves my book. She believes in my book. She's committed to my book. However, there may come a day when my book should be taken out behind the barn and put out of its misery. I suspect my agent will be far more objective about that than I.

Avatar_fan said:

So he's a literary agent who got another literary agent, Kirby Kim of Janklow and Nesbit, to represent him. Do you guys think that was necessary? Fishman was already a literary agent. He knows all about contracts and editors and stuff like that. Why would he need another literary agent to represent him?

If I was in his position, I'd just represent myself and quit the maddening process of querying all together. I thought it was just odd that he took the time to find a literary agent for his book when he himself was already a literary agent.

What do you guys think?

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I don't know enough about the industry to say whether this is a common approach for agents who are also writers, but I can think of some reasons why it might be a good idea:

1. Objectivity. Everyone is close to their own work, and it can be good to gain some perspective from someone who was not involved in its creation. Agents do a lot more besides pitch your work to publishers. They provide feedback and suggestions for improvement too.

2. Potential conflicts of interest. It might not be a good idea to represent a close friend or family member either, and who is closer or more related to you than yourself? Think how you might feel if you pitch your own novel and don't get anywhere.

3. Being able to focus on your own clients without wondering if you're not focusing on their manuscripts enough because you're busy plugging your own novel to editors.

Point, er 113.a?

Anyway, being impartial about your own work is, actually, pretty impossible.
If you feel really great about it, you might pitch it ahead of your clients. If you hate it you can't rep it properly

You need someone divorced from the process of writing this book to rep you. You need that distance, someone who can look at it objectively, can pitch and sell without an emotional wassname in it. You need a buffer between you and the editor should you require it (I haven't yet, but....)

You, the author, are not the person who can do all that.

Avatar_fan said:

I would think an agent writer would write in the same genre that he would rep. It just seems intuitive that way. If they don't read or like that genre, I doubt they would rep. it or write it for that matter.

I could understand the conflict of interest issue as his other clients would wonder how he would handle his work as opposed to theirs. Still, there are other options. High powered celebrities and politicians, for instance, often go to lawyers to handle their book deals as opposed to literary agents:

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They might use lawyers, but lawyers can't do all that good literary agents can, such as find foreign and subsidiary rights deals, or monitor a publisher's performance and make sure they stick to the contract. An agent is more useful to a writer.

Avatar_fan said:

I thought it was just odd that he took the time to find a literary agent for his book when he himself was already a literary agent.

What do you guys think?

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I think it indicates the importance that knowledgeable, experienced "book-trade insiders" attach to having to having an agent rather than trying to do it for yourself.

If even agents are doing that (and I know of others who do, too), that's all the more reason for the rest of us to do whatever we have to do, to find one.

JustSarah said:

Slightly related, don't laywers require up front fees anyway?

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Some will require a pre-paid legal fee before even looking at the contract for you or negotiating it, some will simply bill you at an hourly rate for the work performed, and there may even be other structures, but most will require their legal fees be paid before or immediately after their work is done, rather than, for example, from any advance or royalty payments that may come later.

Avatar_fan said:

I would think an agent writer would write in the same genre that he would rep. It just seems intuitive that way. If they don't read or like that genre, I doubt they would rep. it or write it for that matter.

It's not just about personal preference. Agenting is business. It is about where the agent's contacts and connections are. An agent might have come up through the ranks and have strong ties in say adult memoir or cookbooks or some other market, but personally write fiction. You can't assume that an agent/writer will write what they rep becuase agenting is about business, and writing is often about more than business.

I could understand the conflict of interest issue as his other clients would wonder how he would handle his work as opposed to theirs. Still, there are other options. High powered celebrities and politicians, for instance, often go to lawyers to handle their book deals as opposed to literary agents:

I'm not sure why you care. I'm not saying that to be snarky, but you seem to have some assumption that agents who also write should rep themselves. And I'm not sure why. But regardless, you've had a number of people explain why they would prefer an agent and why an agent/writer might prefer an agent.

Many people see the value of agents beyond being contract negotiators, and it seems you are focusing solely on contract negotiations. I would assume many really good agents would want a really good agent for their work, too, and know that an objective and independent agent would be best.

But I guess I just don't see the issue one way or another, or why you care. If an agent/writer has an agent or not seems kind of irrelevant to anyone but the agent/writer and his agent.

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~suki

Could be about perception too. Even if someone is an agent, if it's their book they are approaching a publisher with, then the publisher doesn't know of anyone except the author and their mum think that this is a good book. If they have an agent then the publisher knows someone else has assessed it too, just the same as with any other book that comes to them via an agent acting for the writer.

And maybe it's just purely practical. Maybe the publishers he wanted to submit to won't take unagented submissions. The fact he can do all the stuff agents do doesn't make him his own agent. An agent acts on someone else's behalf. That's the definition of an agent. You can represent yourself or you can have an agent, but you can't be your own agent.

Avatar_fan said:

That's interesting. If he did represent his own work, I wonder if publishers would consider it to be unagented? I would think not.

I do wonder about authors who do choose lawyers. From the Amanda Knox article, James Patterson and Mary Higgins Clark chose to go with Washington superlawyer, Bob Barnett. Do they still have literary agents for stuff you guys mentioned like film and overseas rights (not sure about terminology)? Or if Mr. Barnett sold worldwide rights for a hefty sum and if Mr. Patterson or Ms. Clark chose to go a la carte for publishing rights services they would need.

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I don't know the article to which you refer, or about Mary Higgins Clark, but James Patterson does have a literary agent. Google is your friend. Search tip: You can find a lot of authors' agents by googling "AUTHOR'S NAME is represented by" or "represents AUTHOR'S NAME."

~suki

Avatar_fan said:

High powered celebrities and politicians, for instance, often go to lawyers to handle their book deals as opposed to literary agents:

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Speaking from a UK perspective, there are also tons and tons and tons and tons of celebrities who have literary agents. A quick look at any large agency's roster will confirm that.

Avatar_fan said:

I would think an agent writer would write in the same genre that he would rep. It just seems intuitive that way. If they don't read or like that genre, I doubt they would rep. it or write it for that matter.
:

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There are genres I quite enjoy reading that I am fundamentally incapable of writing. I could never write a police procedural and I'd be hard pressed to put together a thriller, but I enjoy both of those genres quite a lot.

But if I tried to write one, it would wiggle around under my hands and my brain would go "Needs more were-bears!" and lo, I am writing a wildly different genre.

Or say I repped mysteries and wrote a mystery and it came out YA--very similar genre, whole different set of publishers and editors. Maybe I don't have the best contacts and someone else will sell it better.

I can think of a lot of reasons off try top of my head for an agent to get an agent, actually...

Thinking of a couple of professional analogies.

If a lawyer has a complex legal matter, she probably hires a different lawyer to represent her interests, rather than representing herself.

Doctors have other doctors provide their own health care.

Teachers or professors don't generally want their own kids to be in their classes (unless they live in a teeny town where it's unavoidable). In fact, many teachers I know make sure their kids end up at a different school entirely from the one at which they teach.

Avatar_fan said:

If I was in his position, I'd just represent myself and quit the maddening process of querying all together. I thought it was just odd that he took the time to find a literary agent for his book when he himself was already a literary agent.

What do you guys think?

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Ever hear the adage "A man who is his own lawyer has a fool for a client"?

Same thing. Being a literary agent yourself does not mean you should represent yourself. This is a writer using a literary agent, just like the rest of us do. And it's a writer who needs the time more than he needs to represent himself.

There's also the conflict of interest angle. Do you want an agent you might be pushing his novel, rather than pushing yours?

I really don't understand how this follows from what everyone has said.

I believe it is common. All the agent-authors I can think of are represented. Mandy Hubbard, John Cusick, Pam Van Hylcklama Vlieg (no deal yet, but just signed w/an agent for PBs), Nathan Bransford (who sold when he was still agenting). Sometimes they are represented by agents w/in their own agencies, and sometimes with other agencies entirely. For all the reasons already explained.

Avatar_fan said:

I don't know, guys. A literary agent writer representing himself is a lot like an author going to a publisher directly, this is not necessarily a good idea; it depends on who the publisher is. but with the difference that a literary agent writer knows what to look for in contracts. you're still only focusing on the contract. Many people above have already pointed out that the contract is only a small part of what an agent does.

In this Writer's Digest survey, among traditionally published authors, only 21% had an agent, 12% used to have an agent, and a whopping 67% never had an agent. Can anyone get the raw data from the survey? I'm wondering how many of these authors are digital only authors. That's not a bad thing, but e-published authors often don't neen an agent. Authors who are published in print are more likely to benefit from agents. The number of agented writers go way down for hybrid and indie writers. well, most indie (I'm assuming this means self-published, not published from an independent publisher) don't use agents, so I'm not sure this is really a significant point. In light of these statistics, I think we have to rethink how a writer gets on the 'road to publication.' You need to read around here more. There is not single "road to publication." Many authors here do not have agents. Many authors are self-published. You do what's best for you.

The previously linked to article titled 'Authors' Views on the Value of Agents' even got a response from Mr. Gottlieb of Trident Media. He made the same point I made above: most self-publishers don't need an agent.

BTW guys, I can't believe the amount of responses this thread got. I feared there wouldn't be a lot of responses so thanks for making this a good conversation! I'll try to keep it going!

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I'll also note that the survey is from "those in the sample who had started, completed, or published a manuscript." (Emphasis mine) So it's very likely some/most of the authors in the sample have never dealt with an agent or publisher yet (a majority are self-published only).

Further:

Overall, the published authors in the survey were quite positive in their estimates of what agents offered authors. Asked whether they strongly disagreed, disagreed, neither agreed nor disagreed, agreed, or strongly agreed with several statement about what agents do, the majority of authors agreed or strongly agreed with each of the statements presented with one exception. Authors were unsure whether agents were helpful to authors who are self-publishing, with 47.6% neither agreeing nor disagreeing with the statement.

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So it's not necessarily that these authors don't want agents. And even in a survey that is mostly from self-publishers ("1,563 indie-only authors, 674 traditional-only authors, and 597 hybrid authors"), the overall attitude is positive towards agents.

JustSarah said:

Slightly related, don't laywers require up front fees anyway?

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Yes, but they don't require royalties. A literary attorney charges a one-time fee. An agent gets fifteen percent for life.

Old Hack said:

. An agent is more useful to a writer.

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For some writers. A big bunch of writers out there use IP attorneys, rather than agents, and I'm one of them. And, yes, the attorney can make sure a publisher follows a contract. Probably better than an agent can.

I think a new writer is better off with an agent, but if you have some experience in publishing, an IP attorney is exactly what many of us need and want. It's a heck of a lot cheaper, too. I pay my attorney a one-time fee, but I have to keep paying an agent fifteen percent forever. Twenty percent on foreign sales.

Jamesaritchie said:

I think a new writer is better off with an agent, but if you have some experience in publishing, an IP attorney is exactly what many of us need and want. It's a heck of a lot cheaper, too. I pay my attorney a one-time fee, but I have to keep paying an agent fifteen percent forever. Twenty percent on foreign sales.

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This is a fair point and reinforces that it is a personal choice. For each author to make. For him or herself, as to whether an agent is something they want to have and value. Many authors want an agent, even after becoming established, and many do not. And that's a fair decision for each author to make.

Avatar_Fan, many people have given reasons why. If you aren't convinced, I'm not sure it's worth trying to convince you. You're not an agent, right? So what does it matter? I'm not sure there is anything else to discuss.

~suki