Should a query always reflect the first half of a manuscript?

Katana

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My query is about what happens in the last half. MC is a child in the first few chapters--or part one--an adult in the rest. I started querying a few weeks ago and the agents who didn't form reject have responded that the opening pages didn't draw them in. My betas had praise for both the story and my writing, so I'm wondering if I've set myself up for problems by not having the opening pages reflect the query, with agents expecting one thing but getting what might be considered backstory.

There's no way I can cut the opening chapters where MC is a child and start the story later because the remainder wouldn't make sense. The backstory is absolutely critical, as it sets up the entire manuscript. Now I don't know what to do. I'm beginning to feel like I'm hooped. :(
 

ZachJPayne

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Is there a way to intersperse the backstory through the course of the novel? I'm trying to think of who does this well. I know Jodi Picoult does this on occasion (perhaps a bit too heavily with My Sister's Keeper), but otherwise, I'm drawing a blank.

That was just my first thought, though. I trust that you have a good and solid novel. And no, I don't think that the synopsis needs to reflect what they will see in the first x pages. Those pages are to get an idea of your writing, and to see if you can keep them interested, rather than absorbing the plot.
 

GinJones

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The backstory is absolutely critical, as it sets up the entire manuscript.

The problem is that the reader doesn't care that the backstory is critical. The reader only cares that the material is interesting. The reader stops reading when she's bored. She's not required to finish the book, and you can't be standing next to her when she reads, whispering "It gets better, it'll make sense later on, just keep reading, and you'll see." She just gets to a page that bores her and she closes the book and moves on to another book or movie or video game or chocolate.

If the pages aren't grabbing the agent, then you need to fix the pages, not the query, and not the agent's mind. If the pages are there to set up the rest of the book, and aren't INTRINSICALLY interesting, then you need to either: 1) cut them and find a way to feed the backstory into the main story, or 2) make them interesting in their own right.

Absolutely nothing in the book should be exclusively justified as "set up." The whole book is story, every scene is story, every page is story. There might be incidental aspects of scenes that are set-up (in which case, it's foreshadowing or planting of clues or a brief description of something that seems relatively unimportant at the time, but will become important), but the scene itself needs to move the plot forward right then and there, with goal, motivation and conflict.
 

ap123

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A few thoughts...

I've seen some agents say they only need the query to reflect the first third of the book, others say they want the major conflict.

I've never seen an agent say they want a query that shows the second half of the book.

Everyone agrees the query's job is to entice the agent to request material. IMO, the query should showcase what the agent is going to read if they look at your pages, otherwise they might think they're requesting a manuscript about A when it's really about B--or written in an entirely different style/voice. Seems like a waste of time and effort on both sides.

If the MC's childhood is half of your story and necessary it isn't backstory, it's just the first half. If it is "just" set up, there *might* be an issue with the manuscript itself.

Also, I don't know your specifics, but I have seen quite a few lovely form rejections that read as if they aren't, and include the phrase "didn't draw me in/just didn't draw me in as I had hoped" etc.
 

Putputt

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The problem is that the reader doesn't care that the backstory is critical. The reader only cares that the material is interesting. The reader stops reading when she's bored. She's not required to finish the book, and you can't be standing next to her when she reads, whispering "It gets better, it'll make sense later on, just keep reading, and you'll see." She just gets to a page that bores her and she closes the book and moves on to another book or movie or video game or chocolate.

If the pages aren't grabbing the agent, then you need to fix the pages, not the query, and not the agent's mind. If the pages are there to set up the rest of the book, and aren't INTRINSICALLY interesting, then you need to either: 1) cut them and find a way to feed the backstory into the main story, or 2) make them interesting in their own right.

Absolutely nothing in the book should be exclusively justified as "set up." The whole book is story, every scene is story, every page is story. There might be incidental aspects of scenes that are set-up (in which case, it's foreshadowing or planting of clues or a brief description of something that seems relatively unimportant at the time, but will become important), but the scene itself needs to move the plot forward right then and there, with goal, motivation and conflict.

This. :) You can have the first part be a set-up/back story, but it better be damned riveting. Don't look at it as something that's a base for the second half. Look at it as a story in its own right, with its own hook and exciting bits.
 

mayqueen

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Are you sure that the feedback you got was specific and not a form rejection? It might just be standard wording. The opening pages also might be just fine and dandy for the novel, but just not that agent's cup of tea. How many queries have you sent out? Are you having doubts because you have genuine doubts?

The difference between back story and plot is what is relevant to the central conflict of the story. If your part one builds the central conflict, it's not back story. If it's just information about the character, then it's back story and should be cut.
 

cornflake

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The problem is that the reader doesn't care that the backstory is critical. The reader only cares that the material is interesting. The reader stops reading when she's bored. She's not required to finish the book, and you can't be standing next to her when she reads, whispering "It gets better, it'll make sense later on, just keep reading, and you'll see." She just gets to a page that bores her and she closes the book and moves on to another book or movie or video game or chocolate.

If the pages aren't grabbing the agent, then you need to fix the pages, not the query, and not the agent's mind. If the pages are there to set up the rest of the book, and aren't INTRINSICALLY interesting, then you need to either: 1) cut them and find a way to feed the backstory into the main story, or 2) make them interesting in their own right.

Absolutely nothing in the book should be exclusively justified as "set up." The whole book is story, every scene is story, every page is story. There might be incidental aspects of scenes that are set-up (in which case, it's foreshadowing or planting of clues or a brief description of something that seems relatively unimportant at the time, but will become important), but the scene itself needs to move the plot forward right then and there, with goal, motivation and conflict.

This.

'The opening pages didn't draw me in,' is NOT 'this isn't what I was expecting after having read the query.'

No agent, if the opening pages are compelling and well-written, is going to reject because they don't seem quite what the query suggested. Not happening. If the opening pages are good, they'll want to read more. If they don't want to read more, the pages are a problem.

As above, you can't have it there if it's not interesting because it's going to mean something later. Either make it interesting or get rid of it.
 

Little Ming

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My query is about what happens in the last half. MC is a child in the first few chapters--or part one--an adult in the rest. I started querying a few weeks ago and the agents who didn't form reject have responded that the opening pages didn't draw them in. My betas had praise for both the story and my writing, so I'm wondering if I've set myself up for problems by not having the opening pages reflect the query, with agents expecting one thing but getting what might be considered backstory.

There's no way I can cut the opening chapters where MC is a child and start the story later because the remainder wouldn't make sense. The backstory is absolutely critical, as it sets up the entire manuscript. Now I don't know what to do. I'm beginning to feel like I'm hooped. :(

Is this the Alexander-cloning story? Because I remember the query and synopsis going through QLH and many of the critters were concerned there might be a structural problem with your MS, specifically too much backstory and the main conflict starting too late.

That said, I'm afraid I agree with the majority opinion here. If the agents are reading the pages, that means the query is working, and it's possible you really have a problem with the MS.
 

blacbird

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Any query should represent the totality of the story, as succinctly as possible. If your first half isn't worthy of mentioning in a query, it isn't worthy of being in the story.

caw
 

Katana

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Thank you, everyone, for your responses. I'm so grateful for your assistance whilst I flounder in the deep waters of querying, and I apologize for the length of this.

I've sent out ten of the squirrel-approved queries, and received Rs on four, so it's possible that a) these were form Rs, based on the wording, and b) it's too early to panic because what I'm encountering is subjective preference, and there could be nothing technically wrong with the query or sample pages. Or so I'm hoping, but I didn't want to blow through several good agents before realizing that I've structured my query wrong.

As Little Ming made mention of, it's a story about the cloning of Alexander the Great and takes place in the future.

In Chapter 1, the young clone of Alexander is tormented by nightmares that are actually flashbacks to his violent ancient life. This is what an agent will read if they check out the sample pages.

In the next two chapters, all of Alexander's ancient memories return to him because of an accident and serious head injury (I know, it could never happen in reality), but I hope/think these first few chapters have "its own hook and exciting bits", as Putputt put it. :) It's a beginning that I don't think I can cut or relocate. Thank you ap123 and mayqueen for pointing out that I'm probably mislabeling the first few chapters as backstory (or set-up) when in fact they aren't.

The query itself speaks of Alexander's struggles after he reaches young adulthood, and all mention of his early life was sacrificed because it didn't fit within the 250 word query limit. I've revised the story since posting an early synopsis, adding more conflict and tying things together in a better way, so I may have lessened any structural problems.

So, at this early point, I don't know if the query is doing its job, as I can't tell if anyone is reading the sample pages. But I always wallow in self-doubt whenever a rejection comes it. Is this a case of stay-the-course because it's just too early to determine what isn't working?
 

Sonsofthepharaohs

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If they're reading pages, then the problem is with your pages, not the query. FWIW, when I read your query, I saw problems with the MS too. I then read your opening in SYW, and this just confirmed my initial impression from the query.

I think at this point you need to be brave an accept that the overwhelming tide of opinion might just be right, and you might need to make brutal changes to the MS.
 

alexaherself

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There's no way I can cut the opening chapters where MC is a child and start the story later because the remainder wouldn't make sense. The backstory is absolutely critical

But does it have to be given at the very start?

It sounds like that's the problem, here?

Can you not start with the real story, and then give the so-critical backstory (in flashbacks, or however you choose to do it) a little later?
 

mayqueen

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Hmm. I'm sympathetic. It could be any number of things. Ten queries isn't a lot to diagnose the problem. It could be that there's a problem with the pages and thus the manuscript itself. It could be that it's entirely subjective preference.

If the novel has been beta-read by the appropriate number of appropriately critical folks, you might want to stay the course for a few more queries to see if it's subjective. If it hasn't been or if anything that's been said so far about the structural problems is ringing true, you might want to get some distance from the manuscript and take a second look.

I remember the query and the opening pages, but without reading the manuscript itself, I'm hesitant to comment further. Ten queries is really not that many so far. But I think if you're concerned at all, the number one question to ask yourself is where does the story start?
 

Katana

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Thank you, Kallithrix, alexaherself and mayqueen for your comments. I'm grateful for the time you took to post.

Kallithrix, are you referring to the latest query from a few weeks ago or an older one? I've made changes since I posted my crappy query and synopsis in early 2013. Comments from betas who have read the ms since have generally been more positive. I've also made further changes to query, ms and synopsis in the past two weeks.

I'll wait and see if any more agents respond, then maybe find another one or two betas to run it by. Again, I'm grateful for all of you trying to help me make sense of this complicated process.
 

hikarinotsubasa

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This is maybe a little late to the game, but have you checked Query Tracker for comments about the specific agent? I've seen several agents there who seem to send "You have a great premise but the opening didn't grab me" as a form (Which I'm not crazy about as a practice, since it sounds 100% like personalized feedback and is not... but at least thanks to sites like QT, you can read what others have said about their rejections and make a better guess as to whether it's a form.)

Second, I remember you talking about your novel around here, but I haven't read the actual opening. Going just on what you've said here, though, a boy having violent dreams of a past he's never lived actually sounds like a decent hook to me... why don't you try writing a query based on the first half too, and run both of them by a couple of fellow writers?
 

WeaselFire

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I'm still not sure why anyone thinks a query is about a specific portion of the book. The query is a general letter about the book. If an agent wants to see the first chapter, ten pages, whatever, that's not really part of the query.

On the flip side, the first three pages are usually enough for most agents. If you haven't grabbed them there, you won't grab readers either. Which means you won't grab an editor, which means the book will never sell, which means the agent won't get paid. Which means you won't get accepted or offered a deal. Period.

Jeff
 

JJ Litke

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So you've gotten four rejections so far? I don't think that's enough to worry just yet. I'm sure you've seen the posts like I have about people getting a high percentage of requests from queries, but I don't know how realistic it is to expect that.

It sounds to me like this book might be a bit of a hard sell. Sorry, I don't mean that to be discouraging. But it sounds different, and that seems to mean that it takes more work to find the right agent and publisher. If that's the case, then you're going to have to go through a lot more agents and queries to find the right one.

Though it'd be great if that turns out to not be the case!
 

aus10phile

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I think the big thing is, you don't want there to be a major disconnect between your pages and your query. You don't want them to read the pages and think it sounds like a totally different story than your query. Because if they love your premise in your query and then go and read the pages and they seem totally different, it may feel like a bait and switch. I'm not an agent, but I did have an agent critique my query once and give me the feedback that query and pages didn't seem to match from a tone standpoint. For me, I solved the problem by eliminating the prologue. I'm not sure what the solution is for you, but I think you definitely want some continuity between the two.

Also, I wouldn't fret over a few rejections. If you've sent 10-15 and had no requests, you probably want to look at your query/opening pages again. Sometimes I think the "didn't draw me in" comment is just a form rejection as well (similar to the "I just didn't connect with this" message), but it's hard to tell for sure.
 

Katana

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This is maybe a little late to the game, but have you checked Query Tracker for comments about the specific agent? I've seen several agents there who seem to send "You have a great premise but the opening didn't grab me" as a form (Which I'm not crazy about as a practice, since it sounds 100% like personalized feedback and is not... but at least thanks to sites like QT, you can read what others have said about their rejections and make a better guess as to whether it's a form.)

Second, I remember you talking about your novel around here, but I haven't read the actual opening. Going just on what you've said here, though, a boy having violent dreams of a past he's never lived actually sounds like a decent hook to me... why don't you try writing a query based on the first half too, and run both of them by a couple of fellow writers?
Thanks, hikarinotsubasa. I think you're right about the responses being forms. I go to QT on occasion, but I should check it out more often. Writers there have great insights. I'll try my hand at writing a query for the inciting events of the first half, but I'd rather hammer a nail into a wall with my forehead. The first one was hard enough. Also, I'm afraid that, because the opening section of the story features a child as the mc, it might come off sounding like dark middle grade fiction.

It sounds to me like this book might be a bit of a hard sell. Sorry, I don't mean that to be discouraging. But it sounds different, and that seems to mean that it takes more work to find the right agent and publisher. If that's the case, then you're going to have to go through a lot more agents and queries to find the right one.

Though it'd be great if that turns out to not be the case!
A few betas told me they really liked my ms because it's unusual and not like anything they've previously read. But that's a double-edged sword. A few betas dropped out before finishing because it was too unusual for them. So, JJ Litke, I think you're probably right about the likelihood of it being a hard sell. But I'll try not to get discouraged and give up.

I'm still not sure why anyone thinks a query is about a specific portion of the book. The query is a general letter about the book. If an agent wants to see the first chapter, ten pages, whatever, that's not really part of the query.

I think the big thing is, you don't want there to be a major disconnect between your pages and your query. You don't want them to read the pages and think it sounds like a totally different story than your query. Because if they love your premise in your query and then go and read the pages and they seem totally different, it may feel like a bait and switch. I'm not an agent, but I did have an agent critique my query once and give me the feedback that query and pages didn't seem to match from a tone standpoint. For me, I solved the problem by eliminating the prologue. I'm not sure what the solution is for you, but I think you definitely want some continuity between the two.
Thank you, WeaselFire. I thought this was the case, and I'm hoping it still is, but, to remove the possibility of confusion, I like aus10phile's point about continuity, and I've put in a very brief reference to his childhood. That way, any agent reading the query is unlikely to be too confused when they find the ms beginning with a child.

Also, I wouldn't fret over a few rejections. If you've sent 10-15 and had no requests, you probably want to look at your query/opening pages again. Sometimes I think the "didn't draw me in" comment is just a form rejection as well (similar to the "I just didn't connect with this" message), but it's hard to tell for sure.
You're right. I'm plagued by self-doubt, as well as being too quick to panic. As JJ Litke mentioned, it could take a while to find the right agent for my unusual ms, and I'm going to have to (somehow) be prepared for that.

You guys are wonderful. I'm so grateful that you tried to talk me off the ledge. :heart:
.
 

Sonsofthepharaohs

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Thank you, Kallithrix, alexaherself and mayqueen for your comments. I'm grateful for the time you took to post.

Kallithrix, are you referring to the latest query from a few weeks ago or an older one? I've made changes since I posted my crappy query and synopsis in early 2013. Comments from betas who have read the ms since have generally been more positive. I've also made further changes to query, ms and synopsis in the past two weeks.

I guess it was the old version then, because until this week I'd hadn't been in QLH for months.

I congratulate you for the staying power and willingness to work on it til it's right, which will stand you in good stead for working with an agent/editor. As Mayqueen says above, 10 queries may not be enough to draw a definitive conclusion, so perhaps stick it out a bit longer, and if you're still not getting anywhere, put it away for a while and come back again with fresh eyes and new betas.

FWIW, I thought your premise was really interesting and unique :)
 

Katana

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I guess it was the old version then, because until this week I'd hadn't been in QLH for months.

I congratulate you for the staying power and willingness to work on it til it's right, which will stand you in good stead for working with an agent/editor. As Mayqueen says above, 10 queries may not be enough to draw a definitive conclusion, so perhaps stick it out a bit longer, and if you're still not getting anywhere, put it away for a while and come back again with fresh eyes and new betas.

FWIW, I thought your premise was really interesting and unique :)
Thank you, Kallithrix. It means a lot to me to have to say this. The only reason I'm persevering with my unusual story is because my betas were enthusiastic about it. So I think it has potential.